Was asked...Why put a 5 lbs Roe Blower on your Viper

[DAMN YANKEE]

Why, well if you want the details on the whole project, I wrote them up and will post them for anybody contemplating same.

In a nut shell, it is some of the best time I've had with my 17 year old son with this car. He executed the whole project (minus the pinning of the crank, that I did...solution is a flex shaft and its done in under 20 minutes). Happy to answer any and all questions.

This shot should say it all....

You must be registered for see images

Thanks for all the help in these threads.
Special thanks to Chuck Tator, especially for insisting we "get r done"
Thanks to Sean Roe, picked up the phone every time.

 

[OKViper]

That looks like 2 Benefits:

1) More Power

2) Close Family

Congats!

 

[kcobean]

Very nice....You gonna tune 'er yourself?

 

[Daddy Long Stroke]

Congrats!

Could you elaborate on this "Flex Shaft/Pinning of Crank" solution? I would search it, but this search function *****!

 

[dano]

Howdy!

Would love details on your install. Thanks!

 

[pattymelt3605]

 

[Jim Wilson]

That is very cool!! It reminds me of when I was young and helped my dad work on the cars.

 

[DAMN YANKEE]

KCOBEAN - I'm a lucky guy...answer to your question is, Sean provided all the octane cards I will need AND its only 5 lbs boost AND I live right near Chuck Tator (Patron Saint of the NE Viper community) AND Sean Roe really does answer his phone each and every time AND I've been assured its SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE at 5 lbs. VEC 3 and me.

------------

Daddy Long Stroke - Pinning the Crank. Works like this...The blower unit is about to be part of the serpentine belt system. it will create some drag. The blower on a nice warm day (blower oil, nice and warm) might not put much additional strain on the belt. In fact the design of this blower is just that...very little needed to spin the blower. In the winter with the plow mounted on the Viper and the blower oil cold, well it is heavier and it takes more to turn it.

The pulley on the blower itself is held on to the shaft by being torqued to something like 60 f/lbs. BUT...the viper crank shaft has a pulley on it too. That pulley (the crank pulley) powers everything (AC, water pump, electrics, etc, etc and now the blower) and that pulley is only held on by the force of the foot pounds of torque that hold the pulley bolt into the crank shaft. At the factory, that is supposed to be 225-250 Foot lbs. Ok, so if it was done right at the factory, the crank shaft pulley is being held on by enough force to make sure the pulley never slips on the crank shaft..got it?

Bad news, too many of the Viper crank Shaft pulleys are not torqued properly. Often (NOT always) they are perfectly fine, BUT sometimes (as in TOO many times) that pulley can come loose when powering something like a blower and you have a major problem. Guess what, mine cme of at just shy of 75 f/lbs...1/2!!!!

SO, what to do. Roe pins the pulley to the crank shaft itself.

1. I did this with the hood on. Yes, I know Chuck, but I did, no issues.
2. You get the belt off.
3. You unbolt the 6 bolts that hold the pully outer rin on to the crank pully plate (attached by a big bolt INTO the crank, its that bolt that should be torqued to 225/250 FT / LBS).
4. You get a 1 1/4" socket on the "pully plate to crank shaft" bolt. You will need a two foot handle, you will need a 2 foot extension tube over that handle.
5. You put the car into 3rd gear.
6. You pull up on the parking brake.
7. You get a magnificent woman to step on the brakes hard. She must be a redhead.
8. You get that bolt loose.
9. You mount Roes special "drill hole placement plate" on the remaing "pully plate to crank shaft"
10. You buy a four foot flex shaft

http://www.sawbird.com/flex_shafts.htm

11. You measure exactly the right depth (supplied by Roe, forgotten right now as to what the lenth was by me, wait 2.45"?) on to the drill
12. You mount the drill into the flex shaft shaft. OTher end into a hand drill now held by another beautiful woman, she must be dark haired and not speak a word of english.
13. You lean over the hood, reach down, using the Roe guide, you drill the required two holes.
14. You pin the holes (all supplied by Roe)
15. Remove the Roe guide.
15. Red threadlock the big bolt back into the "pully plate to crank shaft" applying 225-250 f/lbs.
16 Remount the six bolt (using blue threadlock) into the exterior pully plate.

Total time = 20 minutes.
You are done. Ask the two woman what they want to do next. One of them will undestand what you are saying, both will understand what you mean.

 

[Madduc]

Where did you get the plow mount for the viper?? Then I could drive it all year!

 

[DAMN YANKEE]

Plow is held on by the license plate bolts.

 

[Steve 00RT/10]

Looks like you had a great time putting this on with your son. The picture does say it all. You will both treasure the experience for the rest of your lives.

My wife torqued the bolt with this little wrench I borrowed. I can't imagine doing this with the hood on. Hood removal is all of 5 minutes. My back would not have been up to the task.

Your instructions are good except that the crank pulley does not need to be removed to pin the crank.

5 pounders can be self tuned with Sean's software and a WB kit. You don't need a dyno. You should invest in a WB set up---it's always good to know your AFR.

Is there now a VEC 3 with some IAT stuff/other improvements available?

Steve

 

[DAMN YANKEE]

Steve. The only issue I can think of that would dictate the removal of the out belt pulley (excellent photos by the way, never considered using a beautiful blonde, shows how much work Sean has to do in regard to redoing the directions!) is as follows:

1. The Roe model/guide will sit a little higher off the actual hub.
2. If one takes the additional height into consideration...NO ISSUE!

Excellent advice on the software/WB kit.

Thanks

 

[Steve 00RT/10]

Steve. The only issue I can think of that would dictate the removal of the out belt pulley (excellent photos by the way, never considered using a beautiful blonde, shows how much work Sean has to do in regard to redoing the directions!) is as follows:

1. The Roe model/guide will sit a little higher off the actual hub.
2. If one takes the additional height into consideration...NO ISSUE!

Excellent advice on the software/WB kit.

Thanks

Thanks. I'll pass the compliment on . She's been retired for over 5 years so has time to help on these projects. I'll bet she does well over half the cleaning and waxing too. I guess I'm lucky.

You're exactly right. The recess in the tool is actually the thickness of the pulley face. You can add in the difference or......you can flip the tool around---recess out---and drill to the recess depth. ...That way the tool is right flush with surface it's bolted to. It's not a real big deal pulling the pulley off, but it's hard enough to work down there much less having to take 6 more bolts out and re-torque them back on again.

Steve

 

[Parisianviper]

Sorry if I break the mood, but besides bringing loving families together, could you comment on the effect on the car: Drivability, low end torque versus top end , Is it a worthwile modification considering the cost.
Specifically with a 5 lbs boost; any downsides...

Thank you.

 

[Schulmann]

Advantage of the 5lb boost is that you can run on 93oct street fuel without altering much the ignition. 5lb boost doesn't require very "precise" tuning.

Whereas from 8lb boost you will have to work ******* the ignition to get an optimal performance. In addition mixing race fuel with street fuel will not help much from 8lb boost. You will have to run pure race fuel to avoid knocking unless you retard your ignition.

Start with 5lb boost then climb boost slowly as you gain experience in tuning ...

 

[BlueGTS]

Sorry if I break the mood, but besides bringing loving families together, could you comment on the effect on the car: Drivability, low end torque versus top end , Is it a worthwile modification considering the cost.
Specifically with a 5 lbs boost; any downsides...

Thank you.

You will be gaining about 100rwhp with 5psi. Only you can make the decision as to whether it is worth it. If you are going to do it, add the W/M injection as it makes a big difference. I am running 10psi and for the money it can't be beat.

 

[Shelby3]

Advantage of the 5lb boost is that you can run on 93oct street fuel without altering much the ignition. 5lb boost doesn't require very "precise" tuning.

Whereas from 8lb boost you will have to work ******* the ignition to get an optimal performance. In addition mixing race fuel with street fuel will not help much from 8lb boost. You will have to run pure race fuel to avoid knocking unless you retard your ignition.

Start with 5lb boost then climb boost slowly as you gain experience in tuning ...

These comments are in reference to a cast piston car only.

 

[Schulmann]

These comments are in reference to a cast piston car only.

Let say that not matter what pistons you have it is better to get rid of pre-ignition. The difference between cast and forged pistons is the fact that cast pistons will only ping once ... you can also break forget pistons ...

With more boost, it is also more likely to have pre-ignition. Espetially from 8lb boost, Vipers are more likely to ping on street fuel if ignition is not set properly.

 

[Steve 00RT/10]

Here's my take on Roe 5 pounders. I have 2 of them, both self tuned, and am quite content with a 125 RWHP boost. In the 00 car, with 3:45 gears and a light flywheel --1st and 2nd gear literally melt away in a heartbeart. Everyone's situation is a little different. Many on this board put very few miles on their cars--much of that local driving-- and are just looking for big numbers. We travel a lot, getting in about 10,000 miles a season, some road track time, and a few autocrosses. Because of the long distance travel, I need the trunk room --not a water/**** tank. I wanted as much trouble free reliability as I could get. The 5 pounder is the original kit. Tuning is the easiest for a novice. (Sean Roe's support for install and tune is second to none!) With cast pistons, I could only go to 6.5 anyway. 25 HP is not worth losing the space over or putting up with a trickier tuning situation. It seems the bigger the pulley, the trickier to tune. There are no dynos/tuners within 400 miles of here.

Do I wish I had forged pistons? Yes, but not enough to swap them out. 5 pounders will run just fine with no water ****, Sean's spark curves, and tuned to 11.5 AFR. I put over 9000 miles on the SC this summer doing all of the above with zero problems.

I full well knew going in what I was getting for my money and I'm full well satisfied with the result.

Steve

 

[PDCjonny]

And your still faster than 99.99% of the cars your going to run in to on the street. Smart.......

 

[DAMN YANKEE]

Parisianviper, emailed you yesterday, don’t know if you got it.

We have covered some good ground here. Fact is that enough people have done these kits that between us all, all the tricks and traps for the 5 lbs system are known. These are doable, tunable, maintainable, serviceable and REVERSABLE rigs.

Disclaimer:
My car is a creampuff
I am a creampuff driver. You can pass me, its ok, I’m probably trying to find a good SRV song on the CD player. Hell, up until a couple of years ago I though NASCAR was where you bought auto parts. Now that I found out it’s a sport, I’m still wondering if it has a goalie. As a kid, my idol was Mr. Natural. Now, its still Mr. Natural, but I prefer him asleep.

CREAMPUFF RULE #1 – KNOW WHEN TO STOP
Do not cross the “now it’s an expensive, problematic pain in the ass” tipping point.
That “point” is different for most people. For me it is a little past finding my viper keys.

My priorities were:
- It would be a great father/son project before he leaves the house
- No cutting anything, no destruction to the viper what-so-ever.
- Absolutely stable, tunable and light maintenance system at 5 lbs.
- Everything is returnable to stock (pinning the crank remains intact)
- The car would go allot faster.
- The Roe blower is easy to install, in my own garage
- The Roe blower (at 5lbs) is absolutely easy on the car.
- No intercooler, water/**** kit required.
- The engine compartment would look great with the blower.
- I needed to empty my wallet as $7,800 was going stale.
- I had excellent resources available to me, Chuck Tator and Sean Roe.
- I had worked on cars before, on a scale of 1 to 10, I put myself at a 7.5.
(1 is sitting in front of the glove box looking for the ignition)
(10 is contemplating swapping out piston wrist pins every 20,000 miles)
- I had a great space to work on the car.
- I had all the tools required

I live near Chuck Tator, never knew it. Odd, but true. When I finally brought my stock car (plus smooth tubes, filters kinda xtras) car to Chuck to tune, he was kind enough to introduce me to some of the men he had worked with and the cars he had worked on. I spent a lot of time speaking with these guys, direct questions to guys that have built (or had built for them) 700+hp, 10 lbs+ Roe blower rigs to the guys like me, creampuff guys going to race to Starbucks with 5 lbs of boost. They all had great things to say about their blowers. When I started , I didn’t have any interest, not a single thought to adding a supercharger to my car. That changed over time.

In my later discussions with Chuck Tator, Chuck made it clear that this was a project that I could do, should do. That and 5 lbs boost would be EXACTLY what I was looking for. No intercooling was required, I would need a 3” cat back system, but no high flo cat would be required if I kept my driving to short fast burst, not long high way super fast treks for hours (and only because of hot sills). Didn’t take long to make up my mind. Best of all Chuck assured me that I could do this by myself with my son. He was right.

 

[Viper Wizard]

Best of all Chuck assured me that I could do this by myself with my son. He was right.

Hey Dan,
Glad to see your posting here and you are VERY Welcome!

 

[Parisianviper]

Thanks Dan for your comprehensive answer to my question.
I did get your email but you problably didn't get mine. (It seems that everything coming from France is a threat to US National Security ).
Anyway, you've convinced me that going supercharged is a simple and effective way to get extra power without having to tear open the engine. Since I don't have the chance of living next to Sean or Chuck, that'sprobably the way to go for me.
I have two questions:
-Is a VEC 3 available on the market?
- What is a WB set-up?

 

[Daddy Long Stroke]

Thanks for the good info. Much appreciated!

 

[DAMN YANKEE]

Parisianviper, VEC3 is available in the US. WB set-up refers, I believe, to the monitoring of fuel to air mixture. Roe provides cards, as you know, but many choose to run sensors to determine the exact fuel/air mixtures throughout the RPM curve. Then, using Roes software package (additional) one can create there own cards (you will need to buy a card reader/writer, they are cheap). This would only be required if you find the "normal" set-ups work work. I am being told that is not necessary for most. Still I am planning to do it, just for the fun of getting a really good tune.

Now, as you are driving a Viper in France you will have to be sure your transmission has the correct culminators. Look at the tranny bell right behind the engine (right under the plug coils). You want to see a Reddish Pink tag market FX (France Export). If the tag is blue (or not tag) you will need to swap out the tranny culminators. For that you need to order part number KY100045-00-003F. Currently, you have 6 forward speeds and a single reverse. The new culminator will provide you with six reverse speeds and a single forward gear (in case you get attacked from the rear.)

 

[jwbond]

great info on these posts...couple questions though.


1) Does anyone have before and after dyno results of a 5lb pulley?

2) How many lbs can you get up to w/o getting involved w/ **** & water?

3) How difficult is the install? How difficult for a noivce?


I am not considering doing anything for at least a year, but I like to do my research well in advance.

 

[Schulmann]

Answer to Question 1)

Follow this link it will help ...

Answer to Question 3)

The problem is not the installation of the supercharger but its tuning ...

The manual is so well done that likely your housekeeper would be able to install it. Problems come when you overboost the engin with low octane fuel and too advanced ignition. If you have the right tools (WBO) and a good ear tuning is easy.

The advantage of the 5lb boost that it gives a large margin for errors. You can learn. However don't forget that cast pistons are like porceline they can and will break even on 5lb boost if you make an error.

The advantage of the Roe supercharger is the assitance that Roe Racing provides to install and to tune the supercharger. Sean Roe is available from Monday through Sunday on his cell if you have an issue ...

 

[RX VIPER]

great info on these posts...couple questions though.


1) Does anyone have before and after dyno results of a 5 lb pulley?

With headers and exhaust I went from 459rwhp to 601rwhp. When I went to the 8#, the hp didn't change much but the tq went up by 50!

 

[Parisianviper]

Concerning the VEC 3, is it provided with the Roe Blower? It is nowhere to be seen in Roeracing Website.
Any link available?

 

[Parisianviper]

Now, as you are driving a Viper in France you will have to be sure your transmission has the correct culminators. Look at the tranny bell right behind the engine (right under the plug coils). You want to see a Reddish Pink tag market FX (France Export). If the tag is blue (or not tag) you will need to swap out the tranny culminators. For that you need to order part number KY100045-00-003F. Currently, you have 6 forward speeds and a single reverse. The new culminator will provide you with six reverse speeds and a single forward gear (in case you get attacked from the rear.)

[/QUOTE]

Thanks Dan, I checked last night and the culminator was set all wrong!!
It's probably when they installed the Red Wine injection booster.
Now I can go 130 miles an hour in reverse, thanks to you!! I have to upgrade the rearview mirror though...
What a great forum! even better than the one in Khazakstan.