Water/**** systems

[BOTTLEFED]

i have a check valve with my roe kit.

yes pump goes in the wheel well...if i have time this weekend i will take off the wheel.

so where did the check valve go?

pics of the pump in the well would be great (haha, that sounds funny)

how does the tank fit in that spot? isn't it unstable in there?

 

[ZexZo6]

ZexZ06, that is the exact setup we installed on the neighbor's TT C6. Very nice kit.

That is a pretty awesome looking setup.. and clean too!

How much boost were/are you running?

now THATS a nice setup !!!

Sorry it took so long before I replied. I am in Iraq and have just now got to get to a computer to catch up on stuff.

Thanks for all the compilments. It has 10 PSI. They are great kits, and I plan on putting the same kit on when I get a roe S/C.

 

[Burntrubber]

so where did the check valve go?

pics of the pump in the well would be great (haha, that sounds funny)

how does the tank fit in that spot? isn't it unstable in there?

as the line comes up from the pump to the back of the engine I have the check vale right behind the engine, the a 2" line then a "T" to go off to each side of the S/C.
tank fits fine in that spot. Drill holes for brackets and use a velcro strap.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

OK, I've been trying to design my own setup.
Its pretty simple. I don't want anything complex so I don't have to worry about leaks or other things to go wrong. I don't think I need a progressive system since I"m only running a 6.5# pulley. I'll have it come on about 3psi.

You must be registered for see images attach

Let me know what you think or if I'm missing anything.

 

[99 R/T 10]

Sorry it took so long before I replied. I am in Iraq and have just now got to get to a computer to catch up on stuff.

Thanks for all the compilments. It has 10 PSI. They are great kits, and I plan on putting the same kit on when I get a roe S/C.

Army/Marines or contractor? Either way be safe! When you get back, you should be able to buy a real car..........................................................

 

[Big Mac]

FWIW I have used W/M on both N/A and N20 set ups and have seen positive results, especially when driving in hot (90*+) weather. I don't know which models of these cars have knock sensors, but the W/M even on N/A cars keeps the sensors happy and the ECM from pulling timing. I know a ton of guys who use it to spray motors without forged pistons. I only have experience with the Snow kits, but the other ones in this thread look cool too. I know the Snow stuff has a vacuum operated adjustable switch to activate it, or if you have a piggy back with a line out feature you can activate it by RPM etc.

Snow uses a shutoff solenoid which I bet serves the same purpose as the "check valve". From their website "Shut off solenoid is used when mounting the injection nozzle lower than the reservoir or the reservoir is rear-mounted to prevent gravity flowing. It is also used to prevent siphoning when the injection nozzle is mounted after the throttle body or carburetor and is exposed to vacuum."

This is the kit I have used: Snow Performance: Stage 1 Boost Cooler N/A™

They have some cool new stuff since I was last on their site too.

 

[plumcrazy]

i dont know the answer so im asking....would the check valve be better closer to the nozzles ?

 

[Big Mac]

It should function the same anywhere in the line. I would either put it where it can be hidden (if you like that kind of thing) or where it fits well.

 

[EllowViper]

Tim,
On the wiring diagram, the VEC output goes to the relay ground. If I recall, Slave pin 5. The VEC completes a 12v - ground circuit...not a voltage input to activate the relay. The 12v+ to power the relay comes from a low amp ignition "on" source (if you don't want the relay hot all the time).

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Big Mac, thanks for the input. The Roe kit for Vipers is actually a modified Snow kit.
You are right, the check valve and the solenoid serve the same purpose.

Phil, I emailed Coolingmist and he said that the check valve can be mounted in any part of the system between the pump and nozzle. The pump has a weak check valve in it but the check valve adds extra protection. I believe EllowViper informed me that the check valve on the our cars is not really necessary because the nozzles are not seeing high vacuum.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Tim,
On the wiring diagram, the VEC output goes to the relay ground. If I recall, Slave pin 5. The VEC completes a 12v - ground circuit...not a voltage input to activate the relay. The 12v+ to power the relay comes from a low amp ignition "on" source (if you don't want the relay hot all the time).

Thanks Eric
I was going to call Sean about that. The VEC instructions are vague on how is works.

I was also wondering how he is wiring the pump. I have an old set of tuning instructions from Roe for the VEC2 with w/m. It shows a progressive tune for the w/m coming on.
I didn't think he used a progressive controller until just recently?
It has the PWM switched on progressively with boost and rpm instead of just as an ON/OFF switch. This doesn't work with a relay, so how would it work on the pump?

 

[Mr Hemi Head]

Thanks Eric
I was going to call Sean about that. The VEC instructions are vague on how is works.

I was also wondering how he is wiring the pump. I have an old set of tuning instructions from Roe for the VEC2 with w/m. It shows a progressive tune for the w/m coming on.
I didn't think he used a progressive controller until just recently?
It has the PWM switched on progressively with boost and rpm instead of just as an ON/OFF switch. This doesn't work with a relay, so how would it work on the pump?

PWM is a common and most efficient method to speed control DC motors.

Roe uses PWM (pusle width modulation) to vary the W/M motor speed. The wider the pulse the faster the motor turns.

If you wire in the green LED you can see the pulses at part throttle.

I had a custom tank made...if I can find the picture I will E mail it for posting.(Viper is sleeping on the lift)

 

[Mr Hemi Head]

PWM is a common and most efficient method to speed control DC motors.

Roe uses PWM (pusle width modulation) to vary the W/M motor speed. The wider the pulse the faster the motor turns.

If you wire in the green LED you can see the pulses at part throttle.

I had a custom tank made which tucks under the right quarter panel...covered with black carpet. It has a sight tube to monitor fluid level.

If I can find the picture I will E mail it for posting.(Viper is sleeping on the lift)

Here it is:

 

[BOTTLEFED]

PWM is a common and most efficient method to speed control DC motors.

Roe uses PWM (pusle width modulation) to vary the W/M motor speed. The wider the pulse the faster the motor turns.

If you wire in the green LED you can see the pulses at part throttle.

I had a custom tank made...if I can find the picture I will E mail it for posting.(Viper is sleeping on the lift)

I thought about using the PWM as direct wiring for the pump but the VEC input wires are only like 22ga and the pump instructions demand 12ga or larger. I can't see the pump being powered and grounded through 22ga wiring.

I love your tank setup
I just can't afford that much space for a tank with 2 nitrous bottles in the trunk too.
Is your tank made of stainless steel?

 

[Mr Hemi Head]

I thought about using the PWM as direct wiring for the pump but the VEC input wires are only like 22ga and the pump instructions demand 12ga or larger. I can't see the pump being powered and grounded through 22ga wiring.

I love your tank setup
I just can't afford that much space for a tank with 2 nitrous bottles in the trunk too.
Is your tank made of stainless steel?

Aluminum alloy (5052 grade) tank.
Installed approx 3 years with no corrosion problem.
I run about 35% ****.

 

[Red Snake]

Here's my tank in the trunk of my GTS. I used to have it stuck farther up under the edge and just wedged in there. But then I had a bracket installed to secure it into place. Because the floor is not perfectly level there I had it leveled out when the bracket was installed. That left it sticking out into the truck a little bit more but now it is very secure. I have no pictures of the bracket itself and it's WAY too cold out to remove the tank for a pic. Sorry.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

redsnake, thats perfect!
that is exactly what I was looking for

I'm thinking I will paint the tank black like in the pic of the ZO6 setup

 

[kdaviper]

**** will turn you into a walking skeleton, NOOOOOO!!!!!!11!!1!ONEONEONE

 

[X-Metal]

OK, I've been trying to design my own setup.
Its pretty simple. I don't want anything complex so I don't have to worry about leaks or other things to go wrong. I don't think I need a progressive system since I"m only running a 6.5# pulley. I'll have it come on about 3psi.

You must be registered for see images attach

Let me know what you think or if I'm missing anything.

looks great, what type of soft ware did you use to draw this with?

 

[BOTTLEFED]

haha! MSPaint
I copied another diagram someone did of their setup and used it as a model for mine.

 

[EllowViper]

Tim,
Can't answer how to use a progressive controler with the VEC. I use mine as a RPM and boost referenced "On-Off" switch. Its funny given the reading and research on how W/M works in regards to bosst, RPM and engine load that progressive systems are even used. I guess if one wants to spray at a variety of boost levels OK, but for just WOT applications, a progressive system isn't needed. Our ROE systems don't operate in a wide range of boost levels, unlike some turbo or Rousch set-ups. Just my .02c. The RSR site lays all this out.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Eric,
I agree. I have thought about using a progressive controller but because I'm running so little boost I cannot justify the need for it. But I can see how ramping up the amount of AI on a turbo car running 35psi would help add the huge amount of w/m without bogging the motor.
I'll use my PWM as a switch to full on at 3psi.

Going along with this, I put my specifications into the Devil's Own nozzle calculator and it says I need 17gph of nozzle for my application. I'm using the same size nozzles that Sean uses on his kits for the S/C, which is two 325ml (5gph) nozzles. So I'm only going to have 10gph of flow compared to the recommended 17gph. Interesting...

 

[EllowViper]

My math: ROE 10 lbs system with a planned 700 horsepower/700 torque supercharged 4 stroke engine at a B.S.F.C. of .5 lb of gas per horsepower per hour = (350 lbs of fuel per hour)...which equates to about 53 gallons of gasoline per hour (350lbs / 6.63 lbs per gallon = 53 gal). I am planning for 20% of the fuel mass using 50/50 mix water. The 20% is .20 x 700lbs = 140 lbs of W/M per hour that my engine will need at max torque.
140 lbs W/M / 7.48 lb per gallon (50/50 mix) = 18.7 gallons per hour W/M consumption. To calculate cc's multiply 18.7 x 3785cc per gallon = 70780 cc's. To calculate the cc's/minute of W/M needed divide by 60 which = 1180 cc per minute. (cc and mml are the same)

I’m figuring 700/700 with the 10 lb ROE so I’m designing a direct injection system using (10) .63 mml nozzles in the ROE manifold delivering a theoretical 630 cc/minute at 40 PSI. My pump is the 150 PSI 1.4 gal/minute pump that should deliver around 100 PSI at each nozzle so the calculated delivered amount will be right at 1000cc/minute (or 1 liter)..probably a little more.

For your set-up, if you use a planned 600hp/600ftlbs at a 15% W/M mass, you would need: 90 lbs of W/M per hour which translates to 12 gals per hour which translates to 757cc/minute. I think you are in the ball park.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

These are the calculators I used:
Alcohol Nozzle size Calculator - Devilsown Methanol Alcohol Water Injection
6000 max rpm
7psi max boost
8.0L engine
= 9.19gph for each nozzle

CPS : Water / **** Injection Calculator
550cc injectors (for the 52# injectors)
@3bar
80% target duty cycle
4bar of fuel press. (at least)
10 injectors
15 desired %
50% desired mix
125 psi from water pump
7 psi max boost
2 jets/nozzles
= 9.31gph for each nozzle (or about 450cc)

I'm not sure what size injectors you are running. I've got the 52# replacements from Roe. I'm also running a BAP so my pump psi is higher than normal, but 4bar is about 60psi, which sounds close
I put 7psi max boost to account for boost creep.

I'm not sure how accurate these are, but the second one is used by Aquamist and seems very well thought out. And since both are very close to each other, I tend to think they are accurate.
I may order a set of 9gph (500cc) nozzles in case the 6gph (380cc) are not enough.

 

[Burntrubber]

if you dont have a good check valve you are going to go thru alot of W/M. trust me i know...put the check valve closer to the intake...you will just use less of it. but it can go anywhere.

 

[ZexZo6]

Army/Marines or contractor? Either way be safe! When you get back, you should be able to buy a real car..........................................................

Air Force, I have a 99 GTS, is that not a real car, lol??? J/K.

I just haven't had a moderator update my thing to viper owner yet. Thanks again man!

 

[ViperTony]

Air Force, I have a 99 GTS, is that not a real car, lol??? J/K.

I just haven't had a moderator update my thing to viper owner yet. Thanks again man!

Go into your profile and enter your Viper's VIN# and we'll update you to Owner status.

 

[treesnake]

I thought about using the PWM as direct wiring for the pump but the VEC input wires are only like 22ga and the pump instructions demand 12ga or larger. I can't see the pump being powered and grounded through 22ga wiring.

I love your tank setup
I just can't afford that much space for a tank with 2 nitrous bottles in the trunk too.
Is your tank made of stainless steel?

There,s plenty of room.... The 10# bottle on right has been replumbed for W/M

The silver "bolt" on top of the tank is the vent. It is for a diiff. so it is basically one way in. This is also where I fill the tank. I just remove the vent and fill with a funnel.
There is a clear site level gauge at the back of the tank (behind bracket) to monitor W/M level in the tank.
Works Great..

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Very cool setup!
I saw this on VF.net
I love your car

 

[X-Metal]

if you dont have a good check valve you are going to go thru alot of W/M. trust me i know...put the check valve closer to the intake...you will just use less of it. but it can go anywhere.

very true, the **** left in the line AFTER the check valve will get sucked into the engine.