me too, badass, and great idea on the bottle! do you have a pic of the site glass?Very cool setup!
I saw this on VF.net
I love your car
Water/**** systems
- Thread starter BOTTLEFED
- Start date
KenH
Enthusiast
I am running the Roe W/M on a 6.5lb cast piston setup.
I am a little confused by the comments about adding a progressive controller. The VEC can operate as a progressive controller based on boost and RPM without a separate controller required. You can see boost without going WOT, so I like to see some progression on the W/M.
I personnally start injecting just as the car starts to go into boost and full on by 4.5lbs and ramp it up starting at 1500RPM and full on by 5000RPM. When I first started tuning my car, I had some problems with injecting too much W/M too quickly causing some stumbling problems.
I use the W/M strictly as detonation control and it lasts a fairly long time in normal spirited driving. I buy the Boost Juice from Snow since it is convenient to use. It is a bit spendy, but I don't go through enough to worry about it.
I also use Torco Accelerator to boost my local octane from 92 to about 95 for additional protection against detonation with the cast pistons. With W/M only, the tune would move around enough with temp swings to occasionally get a little detonation. The Torco took care of that problem.
--- Ken
I am a little confused by the comments about adding a progressive controller. The VEC can operate as a progressive controller based on boost and RPM without a separate controller required. You can see boost without going WOT, so I like to see some progression on the W/M.
I personnally start injecting just as the car starts to go into boost and full on by 4.5lbs and ramp it up starting at 1500RPM and full on by 5000RPM. When I first started tuning my car, I had some problems with injecting too much W/M too quickly causing some stumbling problems.
I use the W/M strictly as detonation control and it lasts a fairly long time in normal spirited driving. I buy the Boost Juice from Snow since it is convenient to use. It is a bit spendy, but I don't go through enough to worry about it.
I also use Torco Accelerator to boost my local octane from 92 to about 95 for additional protection against detonation with the cast pistons. With W/M only, the tune would move around enough with temp swings to occasionally get a little detonation. The Torco took care of that problem.
--- Ken
BOTTLEFED
Enthusiast
Ken, thanks for sharing. Are you running the Roe kit?
It sounds like you are not running enough W/M or your timing is too advanced. With W/M you should be at the equivalent of 100+ octane. The octane booster you are adding is really only going to help off-boost performance. You may be over-progressing your W/M injection. The most important range for detonation suppression is around your peak torque. It sounds like you are not injecting fully until way past that. You are most likely not using your setup to its full potential and that is why you are getting detonation even when it is injecting. The whole point of tuning a W/M system is to tune out detonation with a nice safety margin.
Now my question about the VEC is, how is it wired to the pump?
The VEC only has 22ga wires as outputs. The pump requires 12ga or larger. You cannot simply run a 12ga +12V to the pump and then run 22ga from the pump to the VEC as a ground.
Its just not making sense to me how to wire the VEC up to the pump to run it progressively. I must be missing something here.
It sounds like you are not running enough W/M or your timing is too advanced. With W/M you should be at the equivalent of 100+ octane. The octane booster you are adding is really only going to help off-boost performance. You may be over-progressing your W/M injection. The most important range for detonation suppression is around your peak torque. It sounds like you are not injecting fully until way past that. You are most likely not using your setup to its full potential and that is why you are getting detonation even when it is injecting. The whole point of tuning a W/M system is to tune out detonation with a nice safety margin.
Now my question about the VEC is, how is it wired to the pump?
The VEC only has 22ga wires as outputs. The pump requires 12ga or larger. You cannot simply run a 12ga +12V to the pump and then run 22ga from the pump to the VEC as a ground.
Its just not making sense to me how to wire the VEC up to the pump to run it progressively. I must be missing something here.
EllowViper
Enthusiast
What Tim said. Full-on should be somewhere around 2500+/- rpm with the amount of W/M actually tapering off as RPM increases/load decreases. But this tapering off happens naturally when a set/max amount (non-progressive) is being injected at max load at low/mid RPM and as airflow increases with RPM, the ratio of W/M decreases accordingly. Progressive systems are actually counter-intuitive as people think they need to inject MORE W/M as RPMs increase...just the opposite with our ROE systems. Plus coupled with the bizzare stock timing curve of our Vipers (25 degrees at 2000RPM to 22 degrees at 4000 RPM to 31 degrees at redline. It would be very hard to dial-in specific timing adjustments with a progressive system. By just looking at the stock timing curve you can see where the engine is under max load based on advance/retard tables. Inject the calculated max at max boost/engine load (somewhere around 20-25% of total fuel) decreasing to around 15% of total fuel at redline/low load conditions. Turbo systems are an entirely different equation as boost progressively builds with RPM...so a propgressive system would be a bit more logical in those appplications.
Mr Hemi Head
Enthusiast
Now my question about the VEC is, how is it wired to the pump?
The VEC only has 22ga wires as outputs. The pump requires 12ga or larger. You cannot simply run a 12ga +12V to the pump and then run 22ga from the pump to the VEC as a ground.
Its just not making sense to me how to wire the VEC up to the pump to run it progressively. I must be missing something here.[/quote]
The w/m motor is powered by the pump control unit... not by the VEC.
The VEC controls the pump control unit. There is no mechanical clicking heard from the control unit so it's probably a solid state switching device.
As Ken H mentioned...too much water at low rpms will cause the engine to bog.
The VEC only has 22ga wires as outputs. The pump requires 12ga or larger. You cannot simply run a 12ga +12V to the pump and then run 22ga from the pump to the VEC as a ground.
Its just not making sense to me how to wire the VEC up to the pump to run it progressively. I must be missing something here.[/quote]
The w/m motor is powered by the pump control unit... not by the VEC.
The VEC controls the pump control unit. There is no mechanical clicking heard from the control unit so it's probably a solid state switching device.
As Ken H mentioned...too much water at low rpms will cause the engine to bog.
BOTTLEFED
Enthusiast
Ok, well that makes it a little more clear
Ken states the VEC is the progressive controller though
so Roe sells a pump controller with the new progressive kit?
I thought he was talking about the old Roe kit
I still think he is limiting the injection too much by having it ramp up through the entire rpm range causing detonation
Ken states the VEC is the progressive controller though
so Roe sells a pump controller with the new progressive kit?
I thought he was talking about the old Roe kit
I still think he is limiting the injection too much by having it ramp up through the entire rpm range causing detonation
Mr Hemi Head
Enthusiast
Ken is probably running the same vintage system that I have....the first batch Roe released. I can tell you that it was a PITA to tune...the card supplied was worthless.
There is a fine balance between fuel - W/M and there was a fair amount of experimenting to get it right. Too much water the engine would bog, too much fuel the power would drop off, back off both and it would ping.
Definetley not a plug and play system....at least at that time.
BOTTLEFED
Enthusiast
So what is the progressive pump controller and where did it come from?
you say it was difficult to tune?
who tuned it?
what AFRs are you running?
what timing?
thanks
you say it was difficult to tune?
who tuned it?
what AFRs are you running?
what timing?
thanks
Mr Hemi Head
Enthusiast
I cannot comment on a progressive controller....was this added in a later version?
The system that I have consists of the VEC connected to the pump controller which drives the w/m motor. This, some wiring and a relay at the battery are the only additional electrical components.
Lets call it E mail tuning.
I would do a few street pulls
err closed course pulls and E mail the log files to Sean. After loading his changes the process was repeated. A/F is 11.8.
During the tuning process we never tweaked timing. I dont have the card reader handy to give you the specifics at this time.
It is best to adjust timing on a dyno IMO. Engine ping may not be detected from the drivers seat especially with a modified exhaust.
Its not worth damaging the engine for a few extra HP.
Rick
BOTTLEFED
Enthusiast
what does the pump controller do? I think that's what Ken was talking about
yes, there is now a progressive kit available from Sean as well
I've heard of the email tunes from Sean on the Roe s/c too
11.8 A/F is what I'm tuned for now, so maybe I'll try to get to that with the W/M
my plan is to tune on the street for a very basic tune and then get on the dyno for fine-tuning
thanks for your help
yes, there is now a progressive kit available from Sean as well
I've heard of the email tunes from Sean on the Roe s/c too
11.8 A/F is what I'm tuned for now, so maybe I'll try to get to that with the W/M
my plan is to tune on the street for a very basic tune and then get on the dyno for fine-tuning
thanks for your help
ZexZo6
Viper Owner
Updated, thanks again!
kcobean
Enthusiast
EllowViper
Enthusiast
I would like to see how a progressive is wired so the VEC controls it directly. I think an easier solution would be to simply have a boost-referenced controller running the voltage output to the pump separate from the VEC. Problem with this is that its boost only referenced...not RPM and Boost like the VEC. My VEC can only do an On-Off ground to the relay. Its either ON at a certain RPM/Boost or its OFF. THe PWM capability of the VEC cannot be used directly to power external devises...just a 0-5v reference signal. Like I said, I'd like to see how the VEC is being used to control a progressive system.
BOTTLEFED
Enthusiast
Eric,
that is exactly what I'm trying to figure out. If Sean has some kind of pump controller that can regulate voltage by input from the VEC's PWM, then I'd like to know what it is and how it works.
I'll be using my VEC PWM as an ON/OFF switch as well.
What are you doing with the RPM?
Why would RPM need to be referenced?
I thought you would just need to have it come on at a determined boost and stay on until you let off.
that is exactly what I'm trying to figure out. If Sean has some kind of pump controller that can regulate voltage by input from the VEC's PWM, then I'd like to know what it is and how it works.
I'll be using my VEC PWM as an ON/OFF switch as well.
What are you doing with the RPM?
Why would RPM need to be referenced?
I thought you would just need to have it come on at a determined boost and stay on until you let off.
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