What Daimler-Chryster Owes Me

[ViperInBlack]

Nothing.

I bought one of their vehicles. I like it. I would buy it again. My dealer made money on the transaction. It is a great car. The company, the dealer, and the American Economy benefitted. So did I.

Do I want:
a. There to be a totally redesigned coupe?
b. It to have a new chassis and new suspension?
c. The car to be lighter?
d. It have the offspring of the McLaren motor?
e. It to win all races?
f. A convertible to be concurrently available?

Yes.

Will my begging, entreating, appealing, whining, moping, or threatening make these things come about?

No.

Do they owe any of that to me?

No.

I am not the chief financial officer. I am not on the Board. I am not a member of SRT Group. Dan Knott has not called me.

Do I have an opinion about what they could do?

Yes.

Do I have the knowledge base to determine if my needs would result in economic growth for the company?

No.

Do they come to the SRT-10 Discussions to find out how I feel?

Unlikely.

How do they feel about pessimism and demandedness?

Bemused.

In a few weeks they will tell us about the new Coupe. Sometime in the future, they will show us the Copperhead, the next VCA car, plans for the next generation vehicle, etc.

I can buy (or not buy) any or all of their forthcoming Vipers (dependent upon financial capacity) if I like them.

The choice to (and what to) manufacture is their own. The choice to purchase belongs to me. The free enterprise system.

It is a great system that polices itself. I would not change a thing.

They owe me nothing except to build and deliver the vehicle which I have elected to purchase. They are not dependent upon me, nor I upon them.

Alice

 

[BigCarrot]

BC.... removed, no need for personal insults - Mod

 

[REDSLED]

Slow day at the office?

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

I'm sure we'll all be let down when the new coupe is unveiled on wednesday.

 

[BobK898]

A significant number of people (especially owners of the company's product) voicing a collective opinion carries weight, you would be mistaken to think otherwise. They may not change their plans, but they are hearing us.

 

[Hirohawa]

They already changed the SRT 10 Coupe from VOI 8 based on what Viper Owners thought.

We are a small group of owners and the same way Ferarri litens to their owners so should Dodge. In 1989 Dodge showed us the original Viper concept and everyone begged them to build it and they did. A few years later they showed a concept GTS and swore was just a concept and that they where not going to build it. People wrote in and voiced their need for this car and in 1996 we had the GTS with more HP.

In 2000 they showed the GTSR concept which was very well received and instead of following the shape as the other two concepts to production models they gave us the toned down SRT 10 (no offense intended but the SRT-10 is not as aggressive in design and proportopns to the GTSR concept).

They broke their own successful strategy of previewing a car to the masses before they produced it. There was no Concept SRT 10 convertible we just got it. And this is why we are in a hole in terms of looks for the SRT Coupe. This is why we won't get the coupe we are looking for.

With most cars avaiable I agree with your comments, but we don't own Accords or Camry's that are produced by the bushell. The Viper is supposed to be something special. Dodge better start listening to these boards because there is a lot of dissent from owners here and we have a potential KO coming out from the new Z06.

 

[Shelby3]

It's gotta be voices in the head.

 

[ViperInBlack]

Hirohawa:

Excellent points.

However, I do not believe that the Viper Coupe shown at VOI was ever intended as the forthcoming production model.

I also do not believe that the Viper was developed as an excercise in giving a voice to the people.

I believe (this was pre-D.C.) that it was the first step in movement from the K-cars, an experiment in creating a new corporate image, market and enthusiasm in a brand name that was not being met with enthusiasm.

They have taken input throughout Gen I and Gen II.

Times change, the country has changed, the auto industry continually evolves.

They asked our input on color. We provided it.

They may visit this forum (or assign that task to a representative) to determine our needs, wishes and expectancies.

My initial point, and I maintain that it is accurate: "they do not owe me a thing other than to deliver a sound vehicle in exchange for payment."

 

[Hirohawa]

I think you are right about the current attitude from DC.

Maybe it is time for them to change back to the way it was.

DC currently, IMO, is making the nicest Mercedes since the 50's. Every new model that comes out is better designed than the last and the HP!
Twin Turbo V12 with 605 HP and 715lbs TQ.!!!! They know how to design and power cars and they need to shift this attention to the Viper.

The 300 Hemi SRT8 - is the best looking American Sedan produced in almost 50 years and the 425 HP doesn't hurt either. DC has the ability to amp up the Viper, the question is will they choose to listen to their target audience or force their own version into the showrooms.

The strangest thing is that they already have thedesired design created in the Compettion Coupe.

 

[ViperInBlack]

Hirohawa:

Right now, Mercedes does not have an $85k sportscar.

Daimler-Chrysler has the capacity to change that.

A new body with a new engine is more probable than a reworking of this current design.

Regarding Competition Coupe in Street Dress. That would have been great, but you need DOT and EPA approval if you ****** with the engine. That is not cheap.

Body paneling can just be subbed out.

I wish they had been more aggressive, but at present, I am on the list for one.

Alice

 

[ChrisGTS]

Re: What Daimler-Chryster Owes Itself

Alice, I think you make your point very articulately. However, I don't view this issue as what DC owes anyone arising from their current ownership of a Viper. Each of us made the decision to get a Viper over some other alternative. I was happy with that decision, and I still love my GTS. DC doesn't "owe" me anything more than that.
What we shouldn't ignore, though, is that next to the company itself, the Viper community has the most interest in what happens with the Viper going forward. We all want to see the Viper's reputation flourish, not only because it enhances the Vipers we already all have, but also because we are the ones most likely to buy the new generation Vipers that the company introduces. I'm a perfect example of that, because I have been anxiously awaiting the Gen III coupe with the presumption that when it came out, I would get one.
It seems to me that if there is some corporate purpose served by making Vipers (which, obviously, DC believes there is), it would be silly for a car company not to listen to the constituency of most likely consumers of that car. Do they actually listen to what we say on this forum? I have no idea. But on the off chance that they do, I think we should not only be permitted to give our input, we have a vested interest in doing so.
There is a lot of talk right now because of the new coupe's imminent arrival. It's an event that a lot of people have been really looking forward to, and it doesn't appear to me that DC is doing a very good job of managing or meeting expectations.
So, although from a strict sense I agree with your point that DC has no obligation to us to do anything in particular with the Viper, since the company has decided to make a Viper coupe, they should be interested in what we think about it, and we should be as open and honest with them as well to protect our own interests as current and future Viper owners. If DC fails to connect with our desires on the new Viper coupe, both we and the company will suffer the negative fallout, and that's what we all want to avoid.
Hopefully in a few weeks when there is an official announcement from DC, we can all look back at this angst and laugh it off.

 

[ViperInBlack]

Re: What Daimler-Chryster Owes Itself

Chris:

If this http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=982971 is accurate, I do not think our angst will be that greatly diminished. And the article fits with my expectancies (not my desires) that there will be new body panels, some minor interior changes, and no change in engine power.

The speed increase will come from aerodynamics. For those driving in a straight line, it will not be disappointing.

I believe that the next 18 months will be a transitional period for the Viper. D-C must decide whether to continue the program or invest in other concepts. If, as we hope, they continue the project, then an entirely new vehicle is needed; not merely an increase in power of the current platform allong with new body panels.

As you point out, we shall have to wait.

 

[GARY J]

Every new model that comes out is better designed than the last and the HP!
Twin Turbo V12 with 605 HP and 715lbs TQ.!!!! They know how to design and power cars and they need to shift this attention to the Viper.

You must be registered for see images

Yeah these damn 650hp twin turbo sedans are really fun to drive. It is so much faster than my GTS was. The torque is incredible. Even in second gear you can roll into the throttle at 2000rpm and and boil the tires. If only they could put something like this into the GenIII's...

Oh well the GTS will be king of the garage as soon as it gets back from Baltimore.

 

[ChrisGTS]

Re: What Daimler-Chryster Owes Itself

Alice, I think you're right that if that article is correct, it won't be satisfactory to most of us. I know it won't be to me. But at least I'll know that a 2006 Viper coupe is not in my future, and I can make an informed decision about what to do next.
In terms of what it would take to keep the concept alive, I had thought that the braking and cornering performance of the SRT-10 was already good enough, which is why I was primarily looking for a horsepower increase to keep Viper ahead of the new Corvette. Frankly, if the Corvette and Viper had similar braking and cornering performance, but the Viper had superior horsepower and acceleration, that alone, plus the exclusivity and uniqueness of the Viper vs. a Corvette would have been enough to make my decision an easy one in favor of the Viper. So, although you would like to see more, I would have been perfectly content with an SRT-10 coupe with a horsepower increase (or weight reduction).

 

[ViperInBlack]

Re: What Daimler-Chryster Owes Itself

Chris:

There were never indications that a horsepower increase was forthcoming at this time. I did not expect it. I do anticipate it for 18 months from now.

I likely shall proceed with the coupe purchase. Even though it is not what I had hoped it would be, it is, in reality, what I expected it to be. I can live with it a year.

"Every year is getting shorter; never seem to find the time. Plans I've made have come to naught, or half a page of scribbled rhymes." - Pink Floyd

 

[ChrisGTS]

Re: What Daimler-Chryster Owes Itself

I think what I may do is find an SRT-10 lease that I can take over for a year and wait to see what happens for the following year. If there's been a HP increase (or whatever) in the Viper, I can get a new one at that time, and if there hasn't, I can find a 1-year-old C6 Z06 and save some money.

For your part, if you expect a performance increase in the second model year of the new coupe, why get the first model year? Seems like that would cause your '06 model to lose more value. Why not wait a year for what you really want?

 

[ViperInBlack]

Re: What Daimler-Chryster Owes Itself

Chris:

I do not expect that the SRT-10 Coupe will have a change for 2007.

I strongly feel that the 2006 SRT-10 will be the final year of that model, coupe and convertible.

I believe that for 2007, we shall see either no Viper at all...or, my perceptions, an entirely new car...ground up.

When you consider what is needed for 550+ rwbhp at a DOT and EPA level, and cover the reliability base for warranty support, I do not believe that the SRT-10...by that time almost six years old since conception (and four model years of releases) will be retired. My thinking.

Now, what comes thereafter...that is what is truly worthy of speculation.

Alice

 

[GARY J]

Re: What Daimler-Chryster Owes Itself

550+ rwbhp

What's that?

 

[viper GTS-R]

Re: What Daimler-Chryster Owes Itself

Hey now! There was too a SRT-10 concept and belive it or not it was called the RT-10. The only diffrences was that there wasn't any black around the side exhaust tip. It was just a full metal side exhaust.

Ok I can understand with what you mean. Chrysler gave us several ideal looks at the RT/10. There was the red 89 concept, VM-01 and VM-02. If I remember correctly one was fitted with a V-8, no "sport" bar behind the seats, the gas cap was centered in the rear, rims that looked like they were off a C4 vette and it was white. The other one was red and was pretty similar to the production model. Chrysler built this one based upon interior design.

With the SRT-10 we didn't get that same view. We didn't get design cues. The 02' RT-10 concept (think it's an 02) was just floatin' around. I don't think many of us payed attention to it. Either that or we really liked the Comp Coupe at the time.

I don't believe the viper is going to die out. I still get the feeling DC might be hiding something extra. We didn't expect to see the skunkwerks SRT-10 at sema did we? Yeha it's not really production, more customization, but has there been anything about something as wicked as that? No, that's why DC is so undercover. That's why we don't here spyshots or specs about a new viper and when the new GTS does come out and I'm wrong, well it was worth a shot then.

 

[doctorbob]

Re: What Daimler-Chryster Owes Itself

Alice, I disagree. I maybe wrong but you have not been to a Viper Invitational. DC is well aware of what Viper owners want and listen to their comments. DC sells alot of other DC products to Viper owners and their companies because of the Viper. If the passion, interest, and aura around the Viper is lost, many owners will look elsewhere for their performance car and other vehicles.

 

[ViperInBlack]

Re: What Daimler-Chryster Owes Itself

Bob:

I was unable to tell where you feel we disagree.

My basic tenet is that I am entitled only to the car I purchase.

We Americans have a profound (mis)conception regarding entitlement. To wit, everyone is entitled to everything.

By contrast, I believe that I am entitled only to the things for which I work, and for which I pay.

I am entitled to demand that D-C makes my SRT-10 driveable for the duration of its warranty. But I am not entitled to demand that they do more for me.

So I bet that we are in agreement. You say that D-C listens. I say that D-C is patient, indulgent and appreciative of some of the input. But, I do not feel that they are obligated to meet any of my needs for a future car.

On a tangent: What would I "demand." Well, I would want a Comp Coupe looking car with >600 HP. And although the truck-inspired V-10 has really done well by the company and racers, I would like to see a V-12 ala S65 Mercedes.

They will build not what I want, but they will build what their group feels is in their best corporate interests. It may, as is the case with the `06 Coupe, meet my needs, and so I shall buy one.

I think we are actually on the same page; I just have to hold the book at arms' length due to farsightedness.

Alice

 

[FLOORIN04]

Re: What Daimler-Chryster Owes Itself

I think the only thing is owed to me by DC is my 7yr70000mile warranty and my boot.

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

Re: What Daimler-Chryster Owes Itself

Holy Christ Alice, going by your posts I would bet that you are 65 years old..at least.

No $hit dodge does not "owe" you anything, however it is in their best interests if they not only did LISTEN to what people want, but actually ACTED and GAVE people what they wanted. If they did, perhaps the factory wouldn't be idle right now as factory workers ran the stockpile of 04 SRT-10's to MAACO to get them painted yellow to move them out so they can start building again.

What I and every viper fan expects DC to deliver is a car that is not about to lay down and die and let the vette take over it's crown. I expect DC to finish what they started, not as something that has profits in mind, but corporate pride and an attitude that speaks to people that buy any product in the DC lineup, they should aspire to be the best and "dodge different" from everyone else, not "dodge bland" for the masses, because that is EXACTLY what the SRT-10 is. They need to get back on track with the Coupe and send a message.

 

[ViperInBlack]

Re: What Daimler-Chryster Owes Itself

Craig:

Have you considered that the factory shut down to prepare to assemble the coupe, sped up release of the `05 Convertibles to have the space for what was to come next...

I do not expect Chrysler to give me anything in return for ownership. If I were an employee, I would not expect my employer to provide more than an agreed upon salary and benefit package. These people have no enduring relationship with me; they are not family.

I do appreciate that Mr. Knott and the SRT team are interested in our thoughts. They, more than I, know the feasibility of some of our wishes. They must smile when someone says "yeah, man, throw on a Paxton and I'll buy `er." For they know how untenable some requests truly are.

The coupe is what the coupe is...a nice looking, 500hp, SRT-10 with minor interior changes and greater structural rigidity. I am buying one; many will elect not to do so. They will sell. Perhaps they will sell to a new generation of buyers. I know of a dealer who is selling all of his SRT-10s, and this period has not been a painful one at all. And, indeed, there are new and different buyers emerging.

Alice

 

[Janni]

Re: What Daimler-Chryster Owes Itself

Ya know - As I type this I just know it's gonna come out wrong and yet I forge ahead....

Dodge doesn't "owe" me anything. However, I always felt we have MORE to our relationship with the manufacturer than obligations that ended at delivery and warranty. We, viper owners, have consistently been rated as the MOST LOYAL of any buyer. Most Viper owners have bought 2, or 3 or 4 Vipers. Viper may have changed the entire way that these owners look at Dodge / Chrysler products.

Those of us who have been to a couple of VOIs remember sitting in the Q&A sessions with PVO (as they were once called) and passionately discussing what we wanted in the next car. Why did they do that? Was it because they felt they "owed" us something? No, they did it because of the type of owner we are.

In fact, most of us have had this car and previous generation cars and really couldn't think about being without a Viper. The cars have touched us and we've seen an entire subculture form around the car. We are passionate about the car and haven't just sold the car when we became bored withit or found another car or another color we liked better.

We've seen 2002 GTS's and RT/10's still selling for close to sticker even as a "dated" body style. We NEVER have seen 200 days worth of inventory. We've seen a lot of new buyers attracted to a "better" car - that most would argue has lost the edgy, raw, in your face PRESENCE that the Gen I and Gen II had. And we've seen these new folks come and go when they couldn't live with the compromises that SHOULD come with owning a Viper. The car looked tamer - and they expected it to BE tamer - a la Corvette or M-B. They delivered to me a car that I can't track without a rollbar and oilpan modifications. While the car is "better" in every performance sense - mine is gone - without regret. I'd buy a 1996/1997 blue and white GTS in a heartbeat - it was just WAYYYYY more fun to drive, let alone IMO, better to look at.

Is the 200 days worth of inventory a mere coincidence based on the (non)approval rating of the new car? Is the car appealing to a "new" type of owner - one that was thinking about another car and selected the Viper? We never considered ANYTHING ELSE but a Viper. Never test drove a Corvette or a Mercedes. But now, well now, if the Z06 comes in like it's spec'd...... and the new GTS doesn't get either a lot better looking or get a lot more HP - well - my brand loyalty only takes me so far - my HP and performance jones WILL be satisfied.

(*** Aside on the Z06 - notice that Bob Lutz has been conspicuously quiet? Wonder why that is? My guess is that he told the Z06 engineers and designers 2 things - 1) don't under-deliver and 2) beat Viper.... and then let the car speak for itself. I expect to be hearing from Bob reallllly soon with a giant grin on his face.***)

So no - we are not "owed" anything or "entitled" to anything. However, for years the Viper owner (addict) and manufacturer relationship has been SO MUCH MORE than others - it stood alone - like the Viper. And "just like everybody else" is exactly NOT what we're after.

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

Re: What Daimler-Chryster Owes Itself

 

[Austin]

Re: What Daimler-Chryster Owes Itself

Ya know - As I type this I just know it's gonna come out wrong and yet I forge ahead....

Dodge doesn't "owe" me anything. However, I always felt we have MORE to our relationship with the manufacturer than obligations that ended at delivery and warranty. We, viper owners, have consistently been rated as the MOST LOYAL of any buyer. Most Viper owners have bought 2, or 3 or 4 Vipers. Viper may have changed the entire way that these owners look at Dodge / Chrysler products.

Those of us who have been to a couple of VOIs remember sitting in the Q&A sessions with PVO (as they were once called) and passionately discussing what we wanted in the next car. Why did they do that? Was it because they felt they "owed" us something? No, they did it because of the type of owner we are.

In fact, most of us have had this car and previous generation cars and really couldn't think about being without a Viper. The cars have touched us and we've seen an entire subculture form around the car. We are passionate about the car and haven't just sold the car when we became bored withit or found another car or another color we liked better.

We've seen 2002 GTS's and RT/10's still selling for close to sticker even as a "dated" body style. We NEVER have seen 200 days worth of inventory. We've seen a lot of new buyers attracted to a "better" car - that most would argue has lost the edgy, raw, in your face PRESENCE that the Gen I and Gen II had. And we've seen these new folks come and go when they couldn't live with the compromises that SHOULD come with owning a Viper. The car looked tamer - and they expected it to BE tamer - a la Corvette or M-B. They delivered to me a car that I can't track without a rollbar and oilpan modifications. While the car is "better" in every performance sense - mine is gone - without regret. I'd buy a 1996/1997 blue and white GTS in a heartbeat - it was just WAYYYYY more fun to drive, let alone IMO, better to look at.

Is the 200 days worth of inventory a mere coincidence based on the (non)approval rating of the new car? Is the car appealing to a "new" type of owner - one that was thinking about another car and selected the Viper? We never considered ANYTHING ELSE but a Viper. Never test drove a Corvette or a Mercedes. But now, well now, if the Z06 comes in like it's spec'd...... and the new GTS doesn't get either a lot better looking or get a lot more HP - well - my brand loyalty only takes me so far - my HP and performance jones WILL be satisfied.

(*** Aside on the Z06 - notice that Bob Lutz has been conspicuously quiet? Wonder why that is? My guess is that he told the Z06 engineers and designers 2 things - 1) don't under-deliver and 2) beat Viper.... and then let the car speak for itself. I expect to be hearing from Bob reallllly soon with a giant grin on his face.***)

So no - we are not "owed" anything or "entitled" to anything. However, for years the Viper owner (addict) and manufacturer relationship has been SO MUCH MORE than others - it stood alone - like the Viper. And "just like everybody else" is exactly NOT what we're after.

I always knew I liked you, Janni.

 

[ViperInBlack]

Re: What Daimler-Chryster Owes Itself

The relationship between a car companies and racers is an historic tradition. Bill Jenkins, Sox and Martin, the Ramchargers, etc. etc.

Manufacturers owe much to the drivers and builders. In the 60s, the entire muscle car experience was driven by that relationship.

The LS-6 Chevelle, the COPOS, the Thunderbolt... would never have existed without the racers.

In turn, the owners who do not race, owe almost everything to the racers. It is their wins that give the street car recognition and instant respect.

Times have changed, Lutz has moved on, there is a new name that appears before the word "Chrysler." And it is that word that is significant even for the racers.

Daimler, by its German heritage, is a different business model. If the Viper sells more SUVs, then the Viper has a role. If the Viper does little more than take up development and manufacturing time, racers-be-damned.

I believe that Dan Knott is highly invested in this SRT group. I believe that there are many things that they would prefer to do. I believe that we often fail to realize the expenses involved and the board meetings required to push even the smallest concept through.

In contrast to what Daimler-Chrysler owes me (nothing), I do believe that Dodge owes almost everything to the racers.

Alice

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

Re: What Daimler-Chryster Owes Itself

You're right alice we're all so blind.

Do you have an address where I can send everyone at DC a thank you basket and a strip-o-gram?



Go back to wonderland.

 

[BobK898]

Re: What Daimler-Chryster Owes Itself

See, you may not agree with Craig's style but he is highly entertaining.