What did I do wrong bleeding my brakes??

[01 RT SNAKE]

I bled my brakes the other day on my 2001 RT/10 with the vacuum sucker from Griot's Garage. It's the one that hooks up to your air compressor. I wanted to replace the old fluid.

I
1) placed the rubber line over the zirc fitting
2) started the vacuum pump
3) cracked open the zirc fitting
4) watched the dirty brake fluid being sucked out
5) walked over to the master cylinder and watched it slowly go down
6) filled it up, not allowing it to go dry
7) walked back over to the caliper and closed the zirc fitting
8) shut off the pump.

I started at the rear passenger, went to the driver's side rear, then went to the passenger front outside zirc and then the inside zirc and finished with the driver's side outside zirc then inside zirc.

The pedal felt hard before the car was started but when I started driving it, the pedal is spongy. I have to pump it a couple times and it becomes solid again. I'm guessing there is definitely air in the lines, however, how did it get there? I started the vacuum pump before I cracked open the lines and shut it off after they were closed. It doesn't make sense.

I don't know if I should try it again or do it the old fashioned way with a person pumping the brakes and me bleeding the caliper.

So, what did I do wrong???? There was absolutely nothing wrong with the brakes before I did this procedure.

Mike

 

[Steve-Indy]

Hard to say...BUT, admittedly, I do use a slightly different method...by first sucking the fluid out of the reservoir, then filling it FULL with new fluid...then start the bleed...doing right rear (RR) INSIDE bleeder first, then RR outside, then RR inside. Next, I proceed to the other corners...always bleeding the inner bleeder first , going to the left rear, etc, right front, etc., then left front. I do exercise great care filling the reservoir so that the fill process does not generate bubbles that can be sucked into the system during the fluid pour. (another good safeguard here is to stop the suction during refill).

I would do a full rebleed...preferably with someone pumping the brakes, HOPING that you did not get air into the ABS controller as you will need a BRB III to bleed that baby!!

 

[SoCal Rebell]

The simplest answer is you did not tighten down all the bleeder screws enough (I've done this). I've used the Griot's brake evacuator literally 100s of times doing alot of road racing. Sit the car still and pump the brake a few dozen times, check for puddles and fluid missing from the brake cylinder. If not do it all again and make sure the reservoir does not get low.

 

[Ulysses]

You might also want to check that the seal from the suction tube to the fitting is tight.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

There isn't a different procedure for ABS brakes, is there?

 

[95Viper]

Use a Motive Power Bleeder and you would be happy.

 

[01 RT SNAKE]

Thanks for the replies. I'll check for leaks.

The Griot's vacuum canister was the absolute fastest, cleanest and pain free brake bleed I've ever done. The end result was the only bummer.

Mike

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

+ what everybody here said.

 

[opnwide]

I've heard you can't use the vaccuum bleeders with ABS. Something about getting bubbles through all the ABS circuitry. I know that if you ever ever ever run the MC dry when bleeding that you'll never never never get all the air back out of tjhe ABS without using one of those power bleeders. If you are sure you haven't run the MC dry, have a buddy pump the pedal the old fasion way and you should get a hard pedal. If you did run it dry (even a little) take the car to the dealer and they can fix it.

 

[Ron]

My guess is that the master did get too low as I can't see any other way for air to get in. Also, if the fluid is agitated, either by shaking the bottle or by a rough pour into the master, air will be introduced into the lines.

I also use this method and while a lot of air leaks around the threads of the loosened bleeder screw, I've never experienced air leaking back in. Did you open the bleeder a least a full turn? You need some decent velocity to pull the fluid and air out. Is your compressor of sufficient CFM to pull a good vacuum? The Vacula type product needs a lot of CFM to run throught the venturi.

There is a torque setting for the bleeders though I don't remember what it is. I also clean up by using a little brake cleaner through the straw extender, inserting it directly into the closed bleeder, followed by a blast of canned air prior to capping them off given the hydroscopic nature of brake fluid.

Though my Viper doesn't have ABS, my other vehicles do and this same procedure works fine. I believe a true ABS brake fluid "flush" requires DRB activation of the ABS solenoids to fully eliminate the old fluid.

Regarding the Motive Pressure bleeder; I have tried it on 2 different Vipers, both with the universal cap and a Miller aluminum threaded cap and it never ever seals properly. I've given up on that method.

 

[SoCal Rebell]

Regarding the Motive Pressure bleeder; I have tried it on 2 different Vipers, both with the universal cap and a Miller aluminum threaded cap and it never ever seals properly. I've given up on that method.

Yup I tried the Motive Pressure Bleeder too, the Griots system is perfect, I'd use it at the end of every track day and never hadda problem, except when I forgot to tighten one bleeder screws all the way at the Viperdays Nationals

 

[Jim Wilson]

The problem is you cannot bleed rear ABS brakes on a Viper with a vacuum bleeder. The vacuum bleeder will work fine for the fronts but due to the ABS you have to either use a bleeder that pressurizes the master cylinder to push the fluid out, or do it the old fashoined way by pressing and holding the brake peddle.

I figured this out the hard way when I installed my Stoptechs.

 

[Ulysses]

My guess is that the master did get too low as I can't see any other way for air to get in. Also, if the fluid is agitated, either by shaking the bottle or by a rough pour into the master, air will be introduced into the lines.

I also use this method and while a lot of air leaks around the threads of the loosened bleeder screw, I've never experienced air leaking back in. Did you open the bleeder a least a full turn? You need some decent velocity to pull the fluid and air out. Is your compressor of sufficient CFM to pull a good vacuum? The Vacula type product needs a lot of CFM to run throught the venturi.

There is a torque setting for the bleeders though I don't remember what it is. I also clean up by using a little brake cleaner through the straw extender, inserting it directly into the closed bleeder, followed by a blast of canned air prior to capping them off given the hydroscopic nature of brake fluid.

Though my Viper doesn't have ABS, my other vehicles do and this same procedure works fine. I believe a true ABS brake fluid "flush" requires DRB activation of the ABS solenoids to fully eliminate the old fluid.

Regarding the Motive Pressure bleeder; I have tried it on 2 different Vipers, both with the universal cap and a Miller aluminum threaded cap and it never ever seals properly. I've given up on that method.

Yup I tried the Motive Pressure Bleeder too, the Griots system is perfect, I'd use it at the end of every track day and never hadda problem, except when I fogot to tighten one bleeder screws all the way at the Viperdays Nationals

I have had Great success with both methods. Both have their pros and cons. The vacuum method is fastest in terms of setup time and you waste less brake fluid.

 

[SoCal Rebell]

The problem is you cannot bleed rear ABS brakes on a Viper with a vacuum bleeder. The vacuum bleeder will work fine for the fronts but due to the ABS you have to either use a bleeder that pressurizes the master cylinder to push the fluid out, or do it the old fashoined way by pressing and holding the brake peddle.

I figured this out the hard way when I installed my Stoptechs.

Jim could be right, my Viper was a non-ABS 2000 but we've done our buddy's ABS Vipers at the track although usually always just the fronts.

 

[Steve-Indy]

Re-read above...if you get air into the ABS controller...you MUST bleed system with the aid of a DRB III to cycle the switches.

There is also a separate procedure for clearing air from the master cylinder...suggest following the recommendations in the 2001 or 2002 service manual.

I have had NO trouble bleeding any ABS Viper (including Viper with StopTech's on all four corners) using a vacuum bleeder...noting that if a large amount of air exists in the lines...pumping the pedal while using the vacuum system REALLY works well !!!

 

[BruceW]

Everybody always says to start at the right rear brake but I noticed that on my Gen II the T connection is near the right rear so the longest fluid path is to the left rear brake. Maybe it's a little anal but shouldn't you start the bleeding at the left rear brake?

 

[01 RT SNAKE]

So who's right and who's wrong? Everyone sounds like they know what they're talking about. Can Viper ABS brakes be bled using a vacuum canister???? Or just the fronts? Tomorrow I'm going to try this again and if it doesn't work I'm using the old fashion way.

On a side note, everyone says don't get air into the ABS controller, however, how is this accomplished? I've bled many brakes the old fashioned way on cars with ABS brakes and have never run into this problem. How would I know if I got air into the ABS controller? Would I only know when I needed ABS?

Mike

PS - Thanks for all the replies

 

[95Viper]

Regarding the Motive Pressure bleeder; I have tried it on 2 different Vipers, both with the universal cap and a Miller aluminum threaded cap and it never ever seals properly. I've given up on that method.

I wonder what went wrong. I have given up on the universal adapter except on my old pickup and a frends Vette but I have the Motive caps for the BMW and Mini and the Miller cap for the Viper. I worked up a quick connect fitting to switch the caps. I never have a leak and love that thing. The constant pressure at 20psi throughout the bleed gets all the air out.

If you are giving up on yours I'd love to get a hold of it and try it out. I am certain I could find out what is wrong comparing it to mine.

 

[Ron]

Hi Craig,

I in fact bought mine from you so I'd be happy to send it back for you to analyze. I love the concept but have gotten tired to hosing brake fluid off my side sills!

Are you still at the same address?

Thanks

 

[Viper44]

I have the Motive power bleeder but haven't tried it on the GTS yet. (univ. cap) Where are you getting the Miller Tools cap from? What is the price for the cap also?

 

[Ron]

I got mine from Craig 95VIPER. He makes a quick connect kit for the Motive unit.

http://www.hipoengineering.com/MotiveBleeder.asp

 

[Viper44]

Ron, So you bought the cap from Craig along with the quick connect kit? I see the kit on the site, but no price and also no Miller cap nor price for it either.

 

[Ron]

You know 44, my memory of it is that I did. If not, Craig gave me the phone number of Miller and I ordered it directly through them. It's been years.......

Miller's number is 1-800-801-5420

 

[95Viper]

Ron, I probably sold you the quick connect setup and you ordered the cap from Miller. Since then, they have released the Ford 3 prong cap that fits our non-abs Vipers. It has been a long time since talking to them but I bet they have caps now for ABS Vipers and Gen3's.

If you don't mind paying shipping, send me everything you have and I will find out what is wrong and send it back. Once you have used this thing with it working correctly I know you will love it.
HiPo Engineering 7990 Sandmar Lane Davisburg, MI 48350

 

[Ron]

Thanks Craig, I will do so. Thanks for the help!

Ron

 

[Mr Hemi Head]

Lots of good info here but I'm having trouble locating a Miller Tool cap for bleeding a ABS Master Cylinder. I called Miller today and they have only one pn for the Viper which is 6643A. They are not aware of any difference between model years but will contact DC tomorrow to verify.

 

[Mr Hemi Head]

Lots of good info here but I'm having trouble locating a Miller Tool cap for bleeding brake lines on a 2001 Viper with ABS. I called Miller today and they have only one pn for the Viper which is 6643A. They are not aware of any difference between model years but they will contact DC tomorrow to verify.

Miller Tools returned my call... the Master Cylinder cap for a 2001 GTS with ABS is pn 6921.

Price with shipping is $94.

800-801-5420 is the correct # for Miller Tools

 

[95Viper]

Miller Tools retuned my call... the Master Cylinder cap for a 2001 GTS with ABS is pn 6921.

Price with shipping is $94.

800-801-5420 is the correct # for Miller Tools

I know Eric at Motive found the Ford 3 prong cap fit the non ABS Vipers. He sent us one along with a Bleeder for the Viper Brunch raffle. It worked perfectly and is something like $10. I wonder if Motive also makes the Miller ABS cap. It would be much cheaper than $94.
When you get the Miller tool you will need to go to a good plumbing store or a hose and hydraulics supplier and get the right stuff to hook it up to the bleeder.