What Is The Lightest Streetable Clutch Available for Use with an Aluminum Flywheel

[Speedfreak]

I need to replace my oem clutch for the 4th time in less than 70k miles. Allways the same problem, after a few burnouts at the dragstrip one or two of the diaphram forks deforms upward and then the clutch won't fully disengage right afterwards. Has happened twice now. I can still drive the car around fine but it will creep when lined up at the dragstrip as you raise the rpm up to launch rpm. It is NOT the slave or master cylinder. Both are near new and have been replaced twice. I would really expect an oem part to hold up alot better than this considering we arent even talking about 10 dragstrip passes, no slicks or drag radials and the car driven normally other than the drag strip outings. Very underwhelmed. Every time I have pulled it after this problem, you can see a couple of the forks sticking up another 1/4" or more from the rest.

Since I have to do this again, I am looking to loose some rotational mass from the heavy 12 inch pressure plate, especially since its durability is crap. What is the lightest clutch out there that is smooth and streetable and will bolt up to my aluminum flywheel. I am not interested in changing flywheels, etc. or going to something exotic. Just wondering if there is something lighter out there than the oem unit that is durable and not the cost of a new house.

 

[bluesrt]

Re: What Is The Lightest Streetable Clutch Available for Use with an Aluminum Flywhee

call on bad boyzz garage- they will know

 

[Viper Specialty]

Re: What Is The Lightest Streetable Clutch Available for Use with an Aluminum Flywhee

The vast majority of single-plate clutches designed for use on the Gen-1/2/3 style flywheels are all based on the same or similar pressure plate designs. If you want to go with an even lighter arrangement, you are going to need to change the clutch/flywheel system, not just the clutch itself.

 

[Speedfreak]

Re: What Is The Lightest Streetable Clutch Available for Use with an Aluminum Flywhee

I remember looking at the bad boyzz garage system. Nice system, but I don't really think it is any lighter than an oem clutch and aluminum flywheel and it is alot more expensive. I think the flywheel is a lightweight steel design and not sure of the clutch itself but when all said and done it saves weight over the stock oem flywheel and clutch but not the aluminum flywheel and oem clutch or not much. Someone please correct me if I am wrong. Final GTS do you have any experience with the improved clutch/flywheel systems you are referring to or does anyone else? Are they lighter and how much and do they work well on the street. I have seen some exotic setups for race only but that won't work on my driver and 6k is a bit much for a clutch when oem is around 3 to 4 hundred.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Re: What Is The Lightest Streetable Clutch Available for Use with an Aluminum Flywhee

I remember looking at the bad boyzz garage system. Nice system, but I don't really think it is any lighter than an oem clutch and aluminum flywheel and it is alot more expensive. I think the flywheel is a lightweight steel design and not sure of the clutch itself but when all said and done it saves weight over the stock oem flywheel and clutch but not the aluminum flywheel and oem clutch or not much. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

Weight is not as important as Mass Moment of Inertia [MMOI]. This is how it will "feel" to you while driving. There are also multiple instances of how this applies. For example, a low MMOI of the clutch pressure plate and flywheel will make the car difficult to move from a stop, while increasing the rev-matching speed. However, one facet that very few people actually take notice of is the MMOI of the clutch disc itself. THIS is the mass that the synchronizers in the transmission must deal with directly, and will have an impact on how fast you can physically engage gears, and how smoothly it will operate. There is a lot of homework to be done on an application before you dive into a decision.

Final GTS do you have any experience with the improved clutch/flywheel systems you are referring to or does anyone else? Are they lighter and how much and do they work well on the street. I have seen some exotic setups for race only but that won't work on my driver and 6k is a bit much for a clutch when oem is around 3 to 4 hundred.

Haha, to put it simply... YES. *cough* read my profile, I am not an "enthusiast" *cough* I have used just about every multi-plate clutch in existence for the Viper, and brought the Tilton Heavyweight system to this market about 5 years ago. I have extensive experience with Tilton, RPS/RSI, McLeod, Spec, and of course all of the stock clutches.

Advantages/Disadvantages:


Cost $: <500
Cost $$: <1,000
Cost $$$: <2,500
Cost $$$$: <5,000
Cost $$$$$: <10,000


[For the sake of argument, I have assumed the "top of the line" of each type. Tilton Quads, RPS Triples, and McLeod Twins. Spec and Stock are of course single disc. Costs can vary greatly if you dont have the need for a high Tq capacity, as you can get the benefits of one system type while not breaking the bank due to costs of extra carbon/metallic plates for the high capacity systems]


Tilton Lightweight Carbon: Ideal Floater MMOI for shifting, ideal driven MMOI for track rev matching, smooth engagement, immune to overheating, very high TQ capacity / NOT streetable due to stalling, cost = $$$$$

Tilton Heavyweight Carbon: Ideal Floater MMOI for shifting, ideal driven MMOI for street but still trackable, smooth engagement, immune to overheating, streetable, very high TQ capacity/ cost = $$$$$

Tilton Lightweight Metallic: Ideal Floater MMOI for shifting, ideal driven MMOI for track rev matching, smooth engagement, very high TQ capacity / NOT streetable due to stalling, cannot be slipped heavily, cost = $$$

Tilton Heavyweight Metallic: Ideal Floater MMOI for shifting, ideal driven MMOI for street but still trackable, smooth engagement, immune to overheating, streetable, very high TQ capacity / cannot be slipped heavily, cost = $$$

RPS/RSI Carbon: ideal driven MMOI for street, smooth engagement, streetable, high TQ capacity / heavy floater system can slow shifting, not immune to overheating, cost = $$$$

McLeod Metallic: ideal driven MMOI for street, smooth engagement, streetable, high TQ capacity / heavy floater system can slow shifting, not immune to overheating, cost = $$$

Spec 3+: ideal driven MMOI for street, moderately smooth engagement, streetable, moderate TQ capacity / heavy floater system can slow shifting, not immune to overheating, cost = $$

Stock: ideal driven MMOI for street, smooth engagement, streetable, low TQ capacity / not immune to overheating, cost = $

 

[Speedfreak]

Re: What Is The Lightest Streetable Clutch Available for Use with an Aluminum Flywhee

Weight is not as important as Mass Moment of Inertia [MMOI]. This is how it will "feel" to you while driving. There are also multiple instances of how this applies. For example, a low MMOI of the clutch pressure plate and flywheel will make the car difficult to move from a stop, while increasing the rev-matching speed. However, one facet that very few people actually take notice of is the MMOI of the clutch disc itself. THIS is the mass that the synchronizers in the transmission must deal with directly, and will have an impact on how fast you can physically engage gears, and how smoothly it will operate. There is a lot of homework to be done on an application before you dive into a decision.




Haha, to put it simply... YES. *cough* read my profile, I am not an "enthusiast" *cough* I have used just about every multi-plate clutch in existence for the Viper, and brought the Tilton Heavyweight system to this market about 5 years ago. I have extensive experience with Tilton, RPS/RSI, McLeod, Spec, and of course all of the stock clutches.

Advantages/Disadvantages:


Cost $: <500
Cost $$: <1,000
Cost $$$: <2,500
Cost $$$$: <5,000
Cost $$$$$: <10,000


[For the sake of argument, I have assumed the "top of the line" of each type. Tilton Quads, RPS Triples, and McLeod Twins. Spec and Stock are of course single disc. Costs can vary greatly if you dont have the need for a high Tq capacity, as you can get the benefits of one system type while not breaking the bank due to costs of extra carbon/metallic plates for the high capacity systems]


Tilton Lightweight Carbon: Ideal Floater MMOI for shifting, ideal driven MMOI for track rev matching, smooth engagement, immune to overheating, very high TQ capacity / NOT streetable due to stalling, cost = $$$$$

Tilton Heavyweight Carbon: Ideal Floater MMOI for shifting, ideal driven MMOI for street but still trackable, smooth engagement, immune to overheating, streetable, very high TQ capacity/ cost = $$$$$

Tilton Lightweight Metallic: Ideal Floater MMOI for shifting, ideal driven MMOI for track rev matching, smooth engagement, very high TQ capacity / NOT streetable due to stalling, cannot be slipped heavily, cost = $$$

Tilton Heavyweight Metallic: Ideal Floater MMOI for shifting, ideal driven MMOI for street but still trackable, smooth engagement, immune to overheating, streetable, very high TQ capacity / cannot be slipped heavily, cost = $$$

RPS/RSI Carbon: ideal driven MMOI for street, smooth engagement, streetable, high TQ capacity / heavy floater system can slow shifting, not immune to overheating, cost = $$$$

McLeod Metallic: ideal driven MMOI for street, smooth engagement, streetable, high TQ capacity / heavy floater system can slow shifting, not immune to overheating, cost = $$$

Spec 3+: ideal driven MMOI for street, moderately smooth engagement, streetable, moderate TQ capacity / heavy floater system can slow shifting, not immune to overheating, cost = $$

Stock: ideal driven MMOI for street, smooth engagement, streetable, low TQ capacity / not immune to overheating, cost = $

Lol. Lol. Sorry, man. Feel like a ***** now. I don't get to spend much time on this site and have been pretty much limited to trying to get the old Gen 3 in the 10's on street tires. A little out of touch on some of the other issues. I am grateful I am talking to the right guy on this issue with lots of experience!!!!! Well my car is light by gen 3 standards at 3200 lbs and change. I do have a 3.55 gear in the car so she will move off a standing start a bit easier than a stock geared car and the wheels are 08 design and much lighter than the stock 10 spoke. I do not slip the clutch at all on drag starts so that is not an issue. I drag race the car occasionally and road race it once or twice a year at sebring. It won't see more than 550 to 575 HP at the wheels in its future and is about 515 HP/ 550 torque now. With all the above in mind and the fact I would like to make a clutch purchase that would help my quest for the 10's, what do you recommend? Give me the money is no object choice and the best bang for the buck choice. Thank you for the nice write up. Very informative.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Re: What Is The Lightest Streetable Clutch Available for Use with an Aluminum Flywhee

Lol. Lol. Sorry, man. Feel like a ***** now. I don't get to spend much time on this site and have been pretty much limited to trying to get the old Gen 3 in the 10's on street tires. A little out of touch on some of the other issues. I am grateful I am talking to the right guy on this issue with lots of experience!!!!! Well my car is light by gen 3 standards at 3200 lbs and change. I do have a 3.55 gear in the car so she will move off a standing start a bit easier than a stock geared car and the wheels are 08 design and much lighter than the stock 10 spoke. I do not slip the clutch at all on drag starts so that is not an issue. I drag race the car occasionally and road race it once or twice a year at sebring. It won't see more than 550 to 575 HP at the wheels in its future and is about 515 HP/ 550 torque now. With all the above in mind and the fact I would like to make a clutch purchase that would help my quest for the 10's, what do you recommend? Give me the money is no object choice and the best bang for the buck choice. Thank you for the nice write up. Very informative.

Haha, no problem. Maybe someday I will sponsor this website again so everyone remembers who I am... until then, I am just the guy with no name, and all the answers. LOL.

So far as your question, well, if money is no object, you absolutely could not do better for that application than a Tilton Carbon Heavyweight Twin, Triple or Quad Plate. That clutch is literally the best in the business, and it has NO downsides. It pretty much covers all of the bases by design... and since it is a patented design, you wont get that combination anywhere else. On that note... it is also the most expensive clutch you will ever see. Granted its modular and rebuildable, but its still insanity. So insane that I had to have one in my car. LOL.

However, with that said, the McLeod is an EXCELLENT clutch for a great price point. Hell, even the Spec 3+ will feel very similar to the McLeod, for less money. Either of them would handle your application. The McLeod has a considerably heavier pedal and higher torque capacity than the Spec 3+, but a similar feel and engagement. Both need to be broken in before they stop chattering. The RPS Twin would also be a good "middle of the road" option. You would not need the triple, so the price drops, and you get the advantages of a lighter assembly, carbon smooth engagement, and lighter pedal.

 

[Steve M]

Re: What Is The Lightest Streetable Clutch Available for Use with an Aluminum Flywhee

How much do the Gen III and IV clutch assemblies weigh?

 

[Viper Specialty]

Re: What Is The Lightest Streetable Clutch Available for Use with an Aluminum Flywhee

How much do the Gen III and IV clutch assemblies weigh?

Phew... taxing my memory on this one. If I recall, the Gen 1/2/3 clutch/flywheel assembly is a touch over 60 pounds, and the Gen-4 is in the high 40's.

 

[Steve M]

Re: What Is The Lightest Streetable Clutch Available for Use with an Aluminum Flywhee

That's about what I would expect for an OEM setup.

My only other clutch experiences have been with an LS1 F-body - the OEM clutch was in the mid-50 lb range, and I had an RPS street twin lite before I sold it that was 33 lbs (made heel-toe downshifts VERY easy since a little blip went a long way).

 

[Knight Viper]

Re: What Is The Lightest Streetable Clutch Available for Use with an Aluminum Flywhee

Nice to hear a good review about the Spec 3+ as I wanted to use that as my replacement while the motor is being built. The build is using all and them some of the budget and I needed a reasonable priced clutch able to hold high HP/TQ.. Thanks for the Input Final GTS

 

[Viper Specialty]

Re: What Is The Lightest Streetable Clutch Available for Use with an Aluminum Flywhee

Nice to hear a good review about the Spec 3+ as I wanted to use that as my replacement while the motor is being built. The build is using all and them some of the budget and I needed a reasonable priced clutch able to hold high HP/TQ.. Thanks for the Input Final GTS

Make sure you balance the clutch and flywheel together & mark orientation before installation. Spec does not do a great balance job.

 

[Dan Cragin]

Re: What Is The Lightest Streetable Clutch Available for Use with an Aluminum Flywhee

I agree with Dan, I too have had issues with Spec and Balance. I send ours out to be matched. My best luck has been with the new Mc Leod twins. We tested these extensively on the ACRX and ACR track cars, with proper break-in they are bullet proof.

 

[cubican]

Re: What Is The Lightest Streetable Clutch Available for Use with an Aluminum Flywhee

I just upgrated to the RSI Billet Carbon Twin Disc Clutch and love it, I have an 03 with the new clutch tr6060 from viper parts of america with the new 5th and 6th gears and 3:55 on the rear the car feels fantastic. the car had to be re-tune for the clutch. the car drives like stock with the new clutch, I can tell you that the billet clutch is much lighter than stock.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Re: What Is The Lightest Streetable Clutch Available for Use with an Aluminum Flywhee

I agree with Dan, I too have had issues with Spec and Balance. I send ours out to be matched. My best luck has been with the new Mc Leod twins. We tested these extensively on the ACRX and ACR track cars, with proper break-in they are bullet proof.

Absolutely- but this customer would need to convert over to a Gen-4 Flywheel for this, assuming he has an 05/06 car and can even do so. Otherwise, he would have to go with the standard system [or can anyway of course]

 

[Viper Specialty]

Re: What Is The Lightest Streetable Clutch Available for Use with an Aluminum Flywhee

I just upgrated to the RSI Billet Carbon Twin Disc Clutch and love it, I have an 03 with the new clutch tr6060 from viper parts of america with the new 5th and 6th gears and 3:55 on the rear the car feels fantastic. the car had to be re-tune for the clutch. the car drives like stock with the new clutch, I can tell you that the billet clutch is much lighter than stock.

The RSI Twin is similar to a Gen-4 Clutch in terms of MMOI, and also similar to a McLeod in Aluminum, or a Spec 3+ w/Aluminum flywheel.

 

[cubican]

Re: What Is The Lightest Streetable Clutch Available for Use with an Aluminum Flywhee

The RSI Twin is similar to a Gen-4 Clutch in terms of MMOI, and also similar to a McLeod in Aluminum, or a Spec 3+ w/Aluminum flywheel.

The billet clutch is much lighter than the gen4 for sure.

 

[345s-bspinnin]

Re: What Is The Lightest Streetable Clutch Available for Use with an Aluminum Flywhee

I just upgrated to the RSI Billet Carbon Twin Disc Clutch and love it, I have an 03 with the new clutch tr6060 from viper parts of america with the new 5th and 6th gears and 3:55 on the rear the car feels fantastic. the car had to be re-tune for the clutch. the car drives like stock with the new clutch, I can tell you that the billet clutch is much lighter than stock.

Not to deviate from the OP's original question, but why would you need to re-tune after clutch/gear changes? Is it because 03/04s have the rear crankshaft position sensor? I am suspecting its due to the flywheel ring gear (slot) differences, or is there something else I am missing?

 

[Viper Specialty]

Re: What Is The Lightest Streetable Clutch Available for Use with an Aluminum Flywhee

The billet clutch is much lighter than the gen4 for sure.

I have one on the shelf... its actually not. Considerably lighter than a Gen-1/2/3, yes, but not a Gen-4. Gen-4 has 20% less MMOI than the Gen-3 cars already, and nearly 30% less than G1/G2 cars.

In terms of MMOI, I have found:

[In order of Highest-Lowest, note that some that are right near each other may be nearly identical]

1. Spec 3+ G1/G2
2. Stock G1/G2
3. Spec 3+ G3/G4
4. Stock G3
5. Steel McLeod G1/G2
6. Steel McLeod G3
7. Aluminum Spec 3+ G1/G2
8. Aluminum Stock G1/G2
9. Aluminum Spec 3+ G3/G4
10. Aluminum Stock G3
11. Stock G4
12. McLeod G4
13. RPS Triple G1/G2
14. RPS Twin G1/G2
15. Tilton Heavyweight G1/G2
16. Aluminum McLeod G1/G2
17. RPS Triple G3
18. RPS Twin G3
19. Tilton Heavyweight G3
20. Aluminum McLeod G3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
21. Tilton Lightweight

 

[Viper Specialty]

Re: What Is The Lightest Streetable Clutch Available for Use with an Aluminum Flywhee

Not to deviate from the OP's original question, but why would you need to re-tune after clutch/gear changes? Is it because 03/04s have the rear crankshaft position sensor? I am suspecting its due to the flywheel ring gear (slot) differences, or is there something else I am missing?

Excessively light flywheels can cause stalling on certain tunes if you don't take into account the reduced energy storage around idle.

 

[Dan Cragin]

Re: What Is The Lightest Streetable Clutch Available for Use with an Aluminum Flywhee

If needed we can make the new Mc Leod clutch work for any Gen, we just supply it with a new flywheel and modify the stack.

 

[345s-bspinnin]

Re: What Is The Lightest Streetable Clutch Available for Use with an Aluminum Flywhee

Excessively light flywheels can cause stalling on certain tunes if you don't take into account the reduced energy storage around idle.

Thanks for the clarification. I was just a bit surprised since nothing in the transmission plays a part in the open/close loops. I can see how the reduced inertia could cause idle hang and other drivability nuisances that can be cured with a proper tune.

 

[Doug Supercharged Vipers]

Re: What Is The Lightest Streetable Clutch Available for Use with an Aluminum Flywhee

....I am not interested in changing flywheels, etc. or going to something exotic. Just wondering if there is something lighter out there than the oem unit that is durable and not the cost of a new house.

I would recommend changing your mind about the aluminum flywheel, It's causing you to overheat your pressure plate. The steel would work better for you.

Good Luck!