what's the better mod: roller rockers or a vec 3? (gen 1)

[whitebluevipe]

i am considering doing a new mod in the spring and was wondering which would be a better mod either to put on harland sharp roller rockers OR get a vec 3. i really can't afford to do both. it will be on a gen 1 with high flow cats, catback exhaust, smooth tubes and k and n filters. i was wondering wich would be the larger gain in horsepower? i am curious to see what people have gain from these mods.

 

[jasontiff]

I essentially have your mods (look at my signature) and I dyno'd last weekend at 409HP and 475TQ with a decent tune on my VEC3. From what I had before it was a gain of about 10-15HP for the VEC.

I don't know what the RR will net you. I have a set of Isky 1.7s read to go on with a few other things that have been collecting dust, waiting for their day...

 

[whitebluevipe]

i am suprised the vec only gained you 10 to 15 hp. i would have guessed at least around 25 hp. thanks for the imput.

 

[jasontiff]

Well, I also forgot to mention it really smoothed out the fuel curve. I was a little lean down low, and we dumped a bunch of extra fuel in the lower RPMs to smooth out power delivery. It really woke the car up, despite minimal gains on the dyno. It consistently pulls through the entire band now.

Another plus is that when I put anything else on, I have the ability to fine-tune the car so that I'm getting the most out of my mods. When headers go on, I'll be able to pull every last pony out of them. When the heads and cam go on/in, I'll be able to adjust the VEC to make sure I'm not hurting anything and getting the most out of them. Cold/hot weather affecting performance? Plug in the VEC via USB, take a look at your A/F and tweak it if need be.

And the best part? A valet tune. If you're trusting enough to leave your car with a valet, it'll be damn sure they don't have any fun joyriding in it!

 

[BOTTLEFED]

I don't know a lot about gen1s but I think you should think about what your plans are for the car.
If you are going to be going much further, think about which mod you will need down the road.
Are you going to go FI?
If you are planing on getting a Roe s/c later, the VEC3 is included. If you are going with a Paxton or turbos, then the VEC3 will probably need to be replaced.

Also, if you are going high HP, the HS rockers are only good for 600-650hp and will need to be upgraded if you go with some really high-flow heads.

If these mods are all you are going to do, I would go with the rockers first, then add the VEC later. The stock PCM is good at compensating for most mods under boost, so you should be fine.

 

[99 R/T 10]

Do both. You should pick up about 40-50HP utilizing a good tune. The Gen I camshaft is small in comparisone to the Gen II 708. Do aall three and I bet you pick up 75 HP.

 

[ViperTony]

Both...one compliments the other. To throw more confusion here, look into an SCT tuner. The SCT can tune both open and closed loop whereas the Vec3 shines mostly in the open loop (WOT) area. I don't know if the SCT works on GenI's or not. Try giving Dan at ViperSpecialty a call to discuss the differences between the SCT Tuner and the Vec3.

 

[mbccenter]

I just happen to have and extra Vec and set of Harland sharps laying around. You could do both

 

[jasontiff]

Both...one compliments the other. To throw more confusion here, look into an SCT tuner. The SCT can tune both open and closed loop whereas the Vec3 shines mostly in the open loop (WOT) area. I don't know if the SCT works on GenI's or not. Try giving Dan at ViperSpecialty a call to discuss the differences between the SCT Tuner and the Vec3.

I wish the SCT would work on our cars. I checked into that but those are all OBDII and we're OBDI.

 

[whitebluevipe]

I wish the SCT would work on our cars. I checked into that but those are all OBDII and we're OBDI.

well actually my 96 is an obd 2 because they changed the pcm in 96. some food for thought.

 

[whitebluevipe]

Do both. You should pick up about 40-50HP utilizing a good tune. The Gen I camshaft is small in comparisone to the Gen II 708. Do aall three and I bet you pick up 75 HP.

so a 708 cam for a gen 2 will work in a gen 1?

 

[jasontiff]

so a 708 cam for a gen 2 will work in a gen 1?

Sure will. Scharf has a used one on Ebay right now. I have one sitting in my garage ready to go in.

 

[jasontiff]

well actually my 96 is an obd 2 because they changed the pcm in 96. some food for thought.

I didn't think about that. I always just thought Gen. I = side exhaust = OBDI. Do the 1996s have the 400HP or 450HP engines?

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

With 1.7 rockers, smooth tubes and 3" exhaust, I was 408/490 at the wheels. This engine configuration is never going to be high HP because the manifold is restrictive, so trying to increase peak power is a losing battle. Somewhere a long time ago there was a post about how the OEM timing and fuel richness was very, very safe so there was a lot to be gained, as jasontiff pointed out above. And frankly, do you drive/race/enjoy it at 5500 only, or do you drive/race/enjoy it at 2500 to 5500? If I had the choice I'd get 15HP all over rather than 15HP at high end only.

 

[99 R/T 10]

With 1.7 rockers, smooth tubes and 3" exhaust, I was 408/490 at the wheels. This engine configuration is never going to be high HP because the manifold is restrictive, so trying to increase peak power is a losing battle. Somewhere a long time ago there was a post about how the OEM timing and fuel richness was very, very safe so there was a lot to be gained, as jasontiff pointed out above. And frankly, do you drive/race/enjoy it at 5500 only, or do you drive/race/enjoy it at 2500 to 5500? If I had the choice I'd get 15HP all over rather than 15HP at high end only.

This is where qa Gen II 708 cam will help too. More duration and lift. The stock Gen I cam is .495I/.525E the 708 with the 1.7 RR will yield .582 on both.


the 1996 Gen 1.5 RT/10 puts out 415HP vs. the 1992-1995 400 HP. I think due to exhaust changes.

 

[whitebluevipe]

I don't know a lot about gen1s but I think you should think about what your plans are for the car.
If you are going to be going much further, think about which mod you will need down the road.
Are you going to go FI?
If you are planing on getting a Roe s/c later, the VEC3 is included. If you are going with a Paxton or turbos, then the VEC3 will probably need to be replaced.

Also, if you are going high HP, the HS rockers are only good for 600-650hp and will need to be upgraded if you go with some really high-flow heads.

If these mods are all you are going to do, I would go with the rockers first, then add the VEC later. The stock PCM is good at compensating for most mods under boost, so you should be fine.

i guess what i am trying to do is keep up with the times and do it on a budget. every year most of the sports cars are catching up to or passing what a 96 rt/10 can do. i don't really plan on updating cars or buying a third car. (i have a 96 rt and a fe gts). i want to keep the gts bone stock with lower miles and boost the hp and features of the 96 without doing any modifications that wouldn't allow me to return it totally to stock. the most extreme i would go would be to get a roe s/c but that isn't in the wallet in the near future. so i want to see if i can satisfy myself with more simple mods for the time being. i really would like (as dumb as this may sound) is to have my 96 rt be faster than the 2002.
this thread also started me thinking about a cam. i was wondeing which would be a better cam the 708 cam or a comp cam custom ground that roe racing sells?

 

[jasontiff]

You can get a 708 new for about $250, or the one Scharf has is $100 on Ebay right now.

The package I bought from Scharf included a Comp Cam, but after receiving it some friends told me it was marginally better than a stock Gen. I cam.

If you're looking at a specific cam, the guys here will help. Send them the specs and they'll point you in the right direction. When I was looking, I was steered clear of some of the more aggressive cam profiles because there is only so much you can milk out of a virtually stock motor (without porting/FI).

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Yep, jasontiff is right. The 708 cam will probably be everything you'll ever need if those are your plans. Sean told me that even with his s/c you don't need more than the 708 unless you are going with a ported head and higher psi.

 

[mbccenter]

I would stick with the 708 cam as you can run into other issues with these cars and aggresive cams. I know a guy with a 95' with 708 cam 1.7 rr Headers and exhaust and it was faster then his 99' GTS stock.

 

[whitebluevipe]

I would stick with the 708 cam as you can run into other issues with these cars and aggresive cams. I know a guy with a 95' with 708 cam 1.7 rr Headers and exhaust and it was faster then his 99' GTS stock.

this what i am hoping for. a real good bang for the buck. also i forgot to mention that i have headers on the car as well. i don't know how much this changes peoples thinking about the project but i thought i would mention it.

 

[vipzilla]

ok so i have 1.7 rockers 708 cam and roe side exhuast with hi flo cats used to have smooth tubes and stock headers i had it tuned on dyno and i got 423 at the wheels 515torgue added headers gained 18hp and 41 more torq .. didnt stop there paxton s/c 8psi dyno this year at 693whp 744 torg ....just got a better fuel system and getting a smaller pulley to go 10psi cant wait to see ...

 

[whitebluevipe]

ok so i have 1.7 rockers 708 cam and roe side exhuast with hi flo cats used to have smooth tubes and stock headers i had it tuned on dyno and i got 423 at the wheels 515torgue added headers gained 18hp and 41 more torq .. didnt stop there paxton s/c 8psi dyno this year at 693whp 744 torg ....just got a better fuel system and getting a smaller pulley to go 10psi cant wait to see ...

did the car come with the 1.7 rockers and 708 cam or did you install afterwards? i am wondering because i want to know if it was really noticeable before and after?

 

[vipzilla]

no i installed it i had the car since new yes i noticed a big diff just doing that and the s/c was a huge kick in the ass

 

[TexasPettey]

I essentially have your mods (look at my signature) and I dyno'd last weekend at 409HP and 475TQ with a decent tune on my VEC3. From what I had before it was a gain of about 10-15HP for the VEC.

That sounds low for a HP add. What was your target and final A/F ratio? Did you add spark or just fuel? Do you have your wideband in a **** in the exhaust or did you just do the tailpipe thing on the dyno?

 

[TexasPettey]

i am considering doing a new mod in the spring and was wondering which would be a better mod either to put on harland sharp roller rockers OR get a vec 3. i really can't afford to do both. it will be on a gen 1 with high flow cats, catback exhaust, smooth tubes and k and n filters. i was wondering wich would be the larger gain in horsepower? i am curious to see what people have gain from these mods.

I'd suggest the VEC, if you are going to learn to tune it yourself. If not, it will cost you more money to get the car tuned. Also, you'll need the wideband O2 in order to tune the car properly.

 

[jasontiff]

I essentially have your mods (look at my signature) and I dyno'd last weekend at 409HP and 475TQ with a decent tune on my VEC3. From what I had before it was a gain of about 10-15HP for the VEC.

That sounds low for a HP add. What was your target and final A/F ratio? Did you add spark or just fuel? Do you have your wideband in a **** in the exhaust or did you just do the tailpipe thing on the dyno?

We just added fuel and didn't mess with any timing the first time. We did a conservative street-tune with the stock O2 sensors. After the heads/cam go on and I swap exhausts, we'll do another street tune just to get it to the dyno, then fine tune there. The new exhaust will have the Innovate widebands in there.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Don't you need $$ head gaskets to change cams/lifters?

 

[99 R/T 10]

Daniel Lesser is selling new Gen I gaskets for $199 per side. Much better than the $1600 Dodge wants.

 

[jasontiff]

Don't you need $$ head gaskets to change cams/lifters?

I grabbed a full set of engine gaskets from Dan at their introductory price back in October; I think the head gaskets were $125/side, and when all was said and done I got out for around $350? MUCH better than the $1400 you pay for a Mopar set.

 

[pteam]

Save the money for a supercharger, all these little mods will mean nothing once you throw a SC on it...