Where are all the "real" track reports by owners?

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

Allan is having an issue with one corner at his local track. The rest of the track seems fine from what I've been told. This could very well be a Corsa issue that no one has tuned around yet so when we set the car up it was what had worked best in the past and what SRT guru's agreed would be the best likely starting point. MCS and myself have suggested upping canister pressures to 225-250 before changing springs to see if that changes things first, indicating the need for more rate.

Thery well be a need for stiffer springs on the Gen5, but I could not track test the car before shipping it. BTW I fancy myself a little bit more then just an autocrosser. I am a track instructor at two close by tracks and have been for 16 years. Everyone drives different so no one setup will work for everyone or every course, I can though give anyone a great base to start with. As for Allan's car we are working with his local race shop (called me today while on vacation) and talked about solutions, driving styles etc... I will as always help with any changes a customer needs. New cars and tires will likely need tweaking though, that should not surprise anyone I hope.

Jack, if you would like to go stiffer rates in the front I have some 550, 600, 650, 700 and 750# springs off my personal car you are welcome to try if I don't give them to Allan first. I will always stand behind my products and choices, always have.

Thank you from California

 

[TrackAire]

Alan,

I might have missed it, but what tire pressures are you starting with cold and ending up hot? With that much camber I would think you'd need a soft tire or you would be on the inside edge a lot. Last question, do you know what your caster and toe settings are at?

Enjoy the new ride, sounds like you're having a blast.

Cheers,
George

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

George,
He was running 33f and 34r HOT. I suggested they needed more likely, but like I said, with this new tire it's hard to know for sure.

His toe is set at 0 and without having the sheet in front of me, castor is 5.8 at that camber setting.

The corner weights were done with a 202# Tech sitting in the car the entire time from corner weighting through alighnment stages.

Alan,

I might have missed it, but what tire pressures are you starting with cold and ending up hot? With that much camber I would think you'd need a soft tire or you would be on the inside edge a lot. Last question, do you know what your caster and toe settings are at?

Enjoy the new ride, sounds like you're having a blast.

Cheers,
George

 

[Allan White Mamba 200/200]

Mark, Thank you for all your help. Please have a great vacation and shut off your computer. For others: My last runs were with tire 35f and 32r hot. I had also raised compression and rebound to 9 (from soft) f&r. But, by this time my r-front was shot so, no clear result could be realized. I'll be adding 25-50 lbs. to the canisters next, and then move on to springs if required. Allan

 

[Jack B]

Let's stay with 500.

Allan is having an issue with one corner at his local track. The rest of the track seems fine from what I've been told. This could very well be a Corsa issue that no one has tuned around yet so when we set the car up it was what had worked best in the past and what SRT guru's agreed would be the best likely starting point. MCS and myself have suggested upping canister pressures to 225-250 before changing springs to see if that changes things first, indicating the need for more rate.

Thery well be a need for stiffer springs on the Gen5, but I could not track test the car before shipping it. BTW I fancy myself a little bit more then just an autocrosser. I am a track instructor at two close by tracks and have been for 16 years. Everyone drives different so no one setup will work for everyone or every course, I can though give anyone a great base to start with. As for Allan's car we are working with his local race shop (called me today while on vacation) and talked about solutions, driving styles etc... I will as always help with any changes a customer needs. New cars and tires will likely need tweaking though, that should not surprise anyone I hope.

Jack, if you would like to go stiffer rates in the front I have some 550, 600, 650, 700 and 750# springs off my personal car you are welcome to try if I don't give them to Allan first. I will always stand behind my products and choices, always have.

Thank you from California

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

OK, and I'll see if I can get a hold of someone at Pirelli to ask about recommended pressures and camber requirements.

Thank you Allan, I'm having a good time, but I'm always on call for the most part.

Take care,

Let's stay with 500.

 

[Allan White Mamba 200/200]

Ok, My shop wanted to start over, but I'm convinced this is a matter of spring rate & canister pressure. Putting on new Corsa fronts and raising pressure this week. If there is an improvement will go to stiffer springs. This is all a little frustrating, but fun. After the car is stabilized, i'll be running R-6s and then this car will haul ass. With Mark's help it will all come together. Allan

 

[Boxer12]

Maybe save some money and put some scrub slicks on it now (to get it dialed in)....I don't think the tires are causing it to bump and roll but if you have it dialed in with Hoosiers then put Corsas on it and you get the problem back you have your answer.

 

[TrackAire]

Ok, My shop wanted to start over, but I'm convinced this is a matter of spring rate & canister pressure. Putting on new Corsa fronts and raising pressure this week. If there is an improvement will go to stiffer springs. This is all a little frustrating, but fun. After the car is stabilized, i'll be running R-6s and then this car will haul ass. With Mark's help it will all come together. Allan

I am by no means a suspension expert, but you might want to do your track testing and car setup with the Hoosiers, I assume they have much less tread depth compared to the Corsa's, right? I hate to see you spending a lot of time and money on the Corsa setup only to change to Hoosiers which may give you very different results on the track. I wish I knew more about the Corsa's......any experienced track rats out there have an opinion on this?

This is a very interesting read since you are breaking new ground here

Cheers,
George

 

[Jack B]

I was thinking the same route, it could be as simple as a bad cord or ply.

Allen:

how many miles on the car?

Maybe save some money and put some scrub slicks on it now (to get it dialed in)....I don't think the tires are causing it to bump and roll but if you have it dialed in with Hoosiers then put Corsas on it and you get the problem back you have your answer.

 

[Allan White Mamba 200/200]

Jack, Just turned over the 900 mile mark. About 250 of that is on the track. allan

 

[PilotaX]

200 miles on track is not bad really. That's roughly 100 laps around the average track and about 8 heat cycles if you do 12 laps a session.

If what you are mainly after is better tire wear, before changing much on the car I'd try rotating the tires side to side every few sessions for more even wear. I'd even consider breaking them down and flipping them on the rim if the grip is still good and the inside and middle of the tread aren't wearing as quickly.

On the other hand, after roughly 8 heat cycles they may be pretty hard. If you're trying to improve lap times it could be difficult to tell how you are doing as they harden.





Just my $0.02.

 

[Jack B]

The problem is, there is no real history on this tire with this car.

200 miles on track is not bad really. That's roughly 100 laps around the average track and about 8 heat cycles if you do 12 laps a session.

If what you are mainly after is better tire wear, before changing much on the car I'd try rotating the tires side to side every few sessions for more even wear. I'd even consider breaking them down and flipping them on the rim if the grip is still good and the inside and middle of the tread aren't wearing as quickly.

On the other hand, after roughly 8 heat cycles they may be pretty hard. If you're trying to improve lap times it could be difficult to tell how you are doing as they harden.





Just my $0.02.

 

[Boxer12]

200 miles on track is not bad really. That's roughly 100 laps around the average track and about 8 heat cycles if you do 12 laps a session.

If what you are mainly after is better tire wear, before changing much on the car I'd try rotating the tires side to side every few sessions for more even wear. I'd even consider breaking them down and flipping them on the rim if the grip is still good and the inside and middle of the tread aren't wearing as quickly.

On the other hand, after roughly 8 heat cycles they may be pretty hard. If you're trying to improve lap times it could be difficult to tell how you are doing as they harden.





Just my $0.02.

One typical track weekend on a set of tires? Personally, I think that's pretty weak tire wear but I have already said that I don't use a real aggressive camber setting. I do know some tracks which eat tires like that though. I think Allen should know what's typical tire performance at his local track. More importantly, I don't think wear has anything to do with the handling issues Allen has concerns about...btw, flipping the tires was assumed (by me). Sure, he should do so if he isn't. If that changes the handling, then I guess you could assume there is one bad front tire. I've never experienced that in 50,000 track miles and countless sets of tires, but anything's possible. I think his race shop is doing the right thing...check everything and start from scratch on the setup.

 

[Allan White Mamba 200/200]

The tires are "asymmetrical" Can't be moved side to side or flipped. New tires installed, canister pressures increased, camber front -2.4. I'll update soon. allan

 

[Magnus_]

I think I missed it, but what track are you doing testing at?

- Keith, NARRA TT1

 

[Allan White Mamba 200/200]

Well, here is the latest: Car ran like a banshee and handled much better. New front Corsa's, 225f / 200r canister pressures, compression and rebound 9 (from full soft) ALL around, tires 33f, 30r HOT, weather hot and humid. Car was flat in corners and totally responsive.I did have one serious incident : I had run the shocks up to 11 clicks all around and while coming out of a decreasing radius sweeper at 110+ MPH, the rear let loose and the car "fish-tailed" violently from side to side. I didn't think I could save it but a Hand from Above pulled me out. I think a combination of the stiff shock settings and pretty well worn rear tires was the problem. OK, now that the increased canister pressure helped, I'm thinking about increasing spring rates to about 700f and 900r and putting the R6s on. Making good progress I think. Mark, insights,recommendations please. allan

 

[bushido]

Allan you got an Gopro video of todays outing? I think a video will help a lot too..

 

[bluestreak]

Sounds like it must be AMP (Atlanta Motorsports Park) based on his location and the description of that turn. Sounds just like the last turn onto the front straight.

 

[Smog Dog]

The tires are "asymmetrical" Can't be moved side to side or flipped. New tires installed, canister pressures increased, camber front -2.4. I'll update soon. allan

Not trying to hijack the thread, but if any of you track guys need a set of new take off Corsas, I have mine listed in the classifieds. Reason for selling is that I will not be tracking the car. Good way to save some money, if you want to stay with the Pirelli Corsa that comes with the Track Pack. Thanks! http://classifieds.viperclub.org/showproduct.php?product=6659

Bill

 

[Allan White Mamba 200/200]

Bluestreak, Yes it is AMP. Smooth, tight, mucho blind elevation changes, one long fast sweeper. I think 16 turns 1.8 miles. The sweeper can be intimidating - it leads on to the front strait. If your ever in the in Atlanta area, come check it out. allan

 

[Allan White Mamba 200/200]

Bill, Check your mail. Thanks, Allan

 

[Boxer12]

Allan, sounds like you are definitely going in the right direction and having fun with your Gen V. Too stiff will lead to some oversteer for sure. I suspect you will want to keep the rear shocks a couple clicks softer than fronts in most situations unless this car handles like a Vette, which I doubt.

 

[Smog Dog]

Bill, Check your mail. Thanks, Allan

Just checked it---was out putting a few hundred miles on the new bumblebee! I think we can make a deal...


Bill

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

Allan,

I don't think a 35# increase will equate to a 200# increase in spring rate. If you go super stiff the car will push more in the slower corners (where you spend the most time on track )or over anything not smooth. If it feels better now I would leave it and give it some more time to evaluate. If you just have to change the rates then I can get you some different springs, like I said way back I had 9 pairs of springs that I could try for different things, but in the end settled on one set that worked for me, and for me on a non aero car softer worked better although I had 550/900 and the triple adjust ables that gave me more control of things.

Also generally if you are running stiffer rates on one end or the other it will take MORE rebound to control that end of the car. The shock should be adjusted to control the spring and sprung weight. If you are using a much stiffer setting on a lower rate spring you should change rate to just keep the car flat. There are some that will tell you the super stiff rates are the way to go, this will let you take out static negative camber which can help braking and acceleration, but can also take some ability to adjust to pavement changes and bumps for the worse. The suspension should WORK not be so stiff all you are relying on is the tire side walls for compression and rebound. With the adjustment you have with the nitrogen canister pressure you have a better combination to work with, use it to let the suspension work don't just run stiff rates just because.

All these opinions though are just that, everyone drives different and some will be more tolerant of setups regardless. In the end we will work with what you want.

Question, when the rear let loose were your on or off throttle? All these things change with the details.

Thanks,

Well, here is the latest: Car ran like a banshee and handled much better. New front Corsa's, 225f / 200r canister pressures, compression and rebound 9 (from full soft) ALL around, tires 33f, 30r HOT, weather hot and humid. Car was flat in corners and totally responsive.I did have one serious incident : I had run the shocks up to 11 clicks all around and while coming out of a decreasing radius sweeper at 110+ MPH, the rear let loose and the car "fish-tailed" violently from side to side. I didn't think I could save it but a Hand from Above pulled me out. I think a combination of the stiff shock settings and pretty well worn rear tires was the problem. OK, now that the increased canister pressure helped, I'm thinking about increasing spring rates to about 700f and 900r and putting the R6s on. Making good progress I think. Mark, insights,recommendations please. allan

 

[I Bin Therbefor]

Too bad there isn't a turning circle somewhere that some of this basic set up work can be done, followed by a turning "square" to get the transitions.

 

[bushido]

Question, when the rear let loose were your on or off throttle? All these things change with the details.

^^ This. It could be driver error in that specific corner. It's why a video helps a lot to assess the situation better..
I always video my track days with my gopro. This allows me to analyze my driving,. Listen to the car,the tires, braking, throttle input etc, etc..

 

[Allan White Mamba 200/200]

Sorry bushhido, no video. Mark, Thanks for the info it is always helpful. Also, I was on throttle and stayed on throttle thru out . Allan

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

Sorry bushhido, no video. Mark, Thanks for the info it is always helpful. Also, I was on throttle and stayed on throttle thru out . Allan

Well definatley the overly stiff shock settings had something to do with it. Like stiffening springs to far it places all the burden on the tire sidewall give for compliance. The tire was loaded more and more as radius decreased then you asked for more then it had to give by excellerating further. With correct rebound settings the transfer of weight would have gradually loaded the rear tire allowing it to grip smoother out of the corner, at least that is the way it works in my car.

 

[bluestreak]

Bluestreak, Yes it is AMP. Smooth, tight, mucho blind elevation changes, one long fast sweeper. I think 16 turns 1.8 miles. The sweeper can be intimidating - it leads on to the front strait. If your ever in the in Atlanta area, come check it out. allan

Hmmm, is this the same Allan that has had some GT3's in the past? Maybe a CLK Black? I think we may know each other or at least some of the same people. I have a few friends who are members at AMP.

I haven't run AMP yet because my car is too loud and I'm not willing to jump through hoops to drive it when Road Atlanta is nearby. I don't think it's a great track for a Viper and certainly not a great track to tune the suspension. Nearly all of the turns are off camber to slow you down and make the lap last as long as possible for a short track, to many really tight turns for my taste. I will drive it eventually because it's so close, but only after getting some Db readings on my car.

Dez