Why a new Viper over Z06/ZR1?

[commonsense]

This is why I chose a new '08 convertible over the Corvettes:
1. The Z06/ZR1 don't come as convertibles. Deal breaker right there. But read on.....
2. Complicated transaxle on the Vettes. Wait 'til it needs repair.
3. Engine speed driveshaft. Reliability and vibration issues. Wasted inertia.
4. Small tires (well....relatively speaking!)
5. Lousy rear suspension design (IMHO).
6. Engine looks like hell. Plastic trim pieces? Come on.....
7. Z06 has no balls. You have to rev it like an S2000.
8. Complicated supercharger setup on ZR1.
9. Seats are a joke. You get thrown around like in my wife's Mini.
10. No support from door or transmission tunnel. A viper cradles you, like a racecar.
11. Nowhere to pivot your arms when you hold the wheel.
12. Motorboat, corkscrew chassis motions on hard acceleration.
13. Numb steering. Buttons on the steering wheel. Come on....
14. Massive oversteer with stability control off.
15. Who wants stability/traction control anyway, in a sports car? Where's the satisfaction in that? In my daily ride, in winter, on ice? Sure......
16. Front end dive on hard braking.
17. Numb shifter.
18. Heads up display? Come on. Get a Lexus.....
19. Gauge positions.
20. Dry sump engines have reliability issues on the street.
21. Airbox setup pales alongside Viper.
22. Seats are too low in the Vette.
23. Windshield is too raked. Poor visibility and I also think there are vision errors in the glass.
24. Engine is either too quiet or too loud (with bypass).
25. Clutch takeup is abrupt.
26. Your $75K or $105K ride looks exactly like a $45K ride.
27. Everyone has one.
28. Viper is just as fast as a ZR1 for $20K less.
29. You don't have the Nurburgring lap record and you're not driving the world's fastest production car!
30. You can't have Bill Pemberton as your salesman!

David ***** (St. Louis)

 

[wallbanger]

and one's kidds get to do the viper sign

 

[Red Snake]

Great post David. Are you the new Blue 08 owner?

 

[commonsense]

Yeah, I had a gray '09 on order that's coming in later this month. But I decided I loved the blue. My wife has an '07 Mini Cooper S convertible that's almost exactly the same color (not quite as nice as the Viper! But don't tell her.....). Her Mini just looks terrific. Bill also told me it was very close to the Marina Blue (I think it was called) of '66 or '67 Corvettes that I lusted after when I was in high school. He's right. It's pretty much as I remember it. Anyway, I think it looks fabulous.

 

[RavenFan_94]

PICS! PICS!

 

[commonsense]

Here it is being unloaded!

 

[Grant]

Man, you Viper guys always pick the wrong things to criticize.

2. Complicated transaxle on the Vettes. Wait 'til it needs repair.

The "transaxle" is just a differential bolted to the end of a TR6060. Its no more complicated than the Viper's transmission.

C5s and C6s do have to deal with two rubber "flex discs" in the driveshaft. These discs can crack and break with time. In practice, as long as replacements are available from GM its not much of a problem. You just check the discs when you replace a worn clutch.

If replacements aren't available (such as in the earlier C5s), you're screwed and have to buy a new torque tube or go with something aftermarket.

3. Engine speed driveshaft. Reliability and vibration issues. Wasted inertia.

It doesn't have to deal with torque multiplication, so it can be lighter than a normal driveshaft. The torque-tubes aren't unreliable per se, but they aren't as trouble-free as most driveshafts. The flex discs can fail, as can their bearings.

5. Lousy rear suspension design (IMHO).

Are you referring to the bump-steer here?

9. Seats are a joke. You get thrown around like in my wife's Mini.

I think you just insulted Minis. Corvette seats really do **** for any sort of performance driving.

20. Dry sump engines have reliability issues on the street.

They do? I've only heard of oil starvation under hard breaking. The "dry sump" only has a single oil pickup.

 

[wallbanger]

2 tone blue interior?

 

[commonsense]

Well, I think you named some of the problems I was talking about.

Regarding the rear suspension, Vette's are still using transverse leaf springs, aren't they? I don't think that's a good design at all. It's hell to work on and I think it's the source of the oversteer problems that modern Vette's have. Why use it at all?

Regarding the transaxle, I'm only relating the problems that friends with Vettes have told me about. They tell me it costs a fortune to change the gear ratio. Also, one guy had to have the posi worked on told me that was also a fortune. Then there's the issue of the shift linkage. It's a loooong way back to the tranny.

 

[commonsense]

No, I went with all black interior.

 

[j-rho]

There's nothing wrong with the Vette's transverse composite leaf spring suspension. It's lighter and has a lower CG than a traditional coil-spring-over-shock setup. Race teams generally switch to coilovers, but that's more for ease of changing spring rates than any inherent disadvantage.

Additionally, run-of-the-mill Corvettes get ride height adjustment from the factory, whereas we have to buy an ACR, or aftermarket coilovers, to lose the Viper's factory 4x4 (from a race-car perspective) stance.

 

[Grant]

Regarding the rear suspension, Vette's are still using transverse leaf springs, aren't they? I don't think that's a good design at all. It's hell to work on and I think it's the source of the oversteer problems that modern Vette's have. Why use it at all?

Its not the cause of the oversteer; the car is just set up more neutral than most from the factory, has less weight over the rear than a Viper, and its OE tires ****. The leaf springs aren't that hard to work on either. They might be easier than most coilover setups since you don't need a spring compressor at all. The front spring is harder than the rear since you need to seperate the lower ball joints in order to swap it out.

There really isn't anything inferior about the leaf spring setup (compared to coil springs) from the standpoint of performance street cars. In other words, what j-rho said.

The transmission, clutch and differential are hell to work on because you've got to drop the whole rear cradle and torque-tube assembly (this extra work is unrelated to the use of leaf springs). That means unbolting longtube headers (if you have them), most of the exhaust, the tunnel plate, the shifter, brake lines, most of the rear suspension, etc. just to lower the torque tube. If you have serious clutch-pedal-sticking issues (very common on all LS-powered cars), you have to do all this just to get to the slave cylinder. It can be a nightmare.

I did it with some jack stands and one floor jack, but its not fun.

Regarding the transaxle, I'm only relating the problems that friends with Vettes have told me about. They tell me it costs a fortune to change the gear ratio. Also, one guy had to have the posi worked on told me that was also a fortune. Then there's the issue of the shift linkage. It's a loooong way back to the tranny.

The base-model C6s seem to have an issue with the diff case exploding while launching. The transmission and differential themselves aren't anything exotic though; likely they were just paying "Corvette tax" or seeing the labor charges from dropping the rear cradle.

 

[rocman]

22. Seats are too low in the Vette.

Seats are too high in a Viper.

 

[Nine Ball]

All valid points. But, the Viper is far from being perfect across the board when comparing both vehicles. They both have their flaws.

I'm looking for a Z06 to daily drive, but keeping the Viper too.

 

[GONABITE]

Your most valid point and the only reason Im not driving one of those fantastic machines is that weather its a Z06 or ZR1 it looks like a Z51. Other than that GM technology so far surpasses Chrsysler its pathetic. GM has built a car with all the luxuries of your Lexus makes it faster than a Viper and still is lighter than the Viper. So many people here talk about who wants a cup holder is a race car or who want heads up display in a race car or power seats? My observation on this board not many people drive there car like a race car weather its at the drag strip or on a road course. As for me I do both and there are a few here that do the same. Most people here seem to have the ability to own the car and keep it clean, and then want to bash a car that has every thing our cars have and a $hit load more. Other than exclusivity. I have owned 2 vipers and 4 corvettes one being a ZR1. When driving my car I feel cramped you sit way to high and are looking at the roof line of the car, you have no comfortable place to put your feet and its hot in the cabin, the power of the car is flat and very short lived, sure change the gears put a good tune in it and change the exhaust WOW it runs like it should. When I drive the Z06 there is room in the seat side to side I can recline the seat I can move my legs around the cabin is quiet you can acutally hear the radio without turning the volume so far up. The power band is very smooth and endless. But I love my car it just the reality and the truth Viper has the style Corvette has the function and perfomance best bang for you buck out there. Sorry Im just a realist. Not a racist I love all cars.

 

[mbacker_99]

Your most valid point and the only reason Im not driving one of those fantastic machines is that weather its a Z06 or ZR1 it looks like a Z51. Other than that GM technology so far surpasses Chrsysler its pathetic. GM has built a car with all the luxuries of your Lexus makes it faster than a Viper and still is lighter than the Viper. So many people here talk about who wants a cup holder is a race car or who want heads up display in a race car or power seats? My observation on this board not many people drive there car like a race car weather its at the drag strip or on a road course. As for me I do both and there are a few here that do the same. Most people here seem to have the ability to own the car and keep it clean, and then want to bash a car that has every thing our cars have and a $hit load more. Other than exclusivity. I have owned 2 vipers and 4 corvettes one being a ZR1. When driving my car I feel cramped you sit way to high and are looking at the roof line of the car, you have no comfortable place to put your feet and its hot in the cabin, the power of the car is flat and very short lived, sure change the gears put a good tune in it and change the exhaust WOW it runs like it should. When I drive the Z06 there is room in the seat side to side I can recline the seat I can move my legs around the cabin is quiet you can acutally hear the radio without turning the volume so far up. The power band is very smooth and endless. But I love my car it just the reality and the truth Viper has the style Corvette has the function and perfomance best bang for you buck out there. Sorry Im just a realist. Not a racist I love all cars.

I think you hit the nail on the head. This is exactly why Chrysler cant even sell out 1200 '08 cars. I was 25 when I got my '06 and could have cared less about the Vipers shortcomings. But 2 years and 24k miles later I am in a love/hate relationship with the car.

 

[GONABITE]

Its like a relationship its the looks that get you to the table its the personality that keeps you there or makes you leave.LOL

 

[vipeuup]

Excellent points. Congratulations

 

[TexasPettey]

Man, you Viper guys always pick the wrong things to criticize.

The "transaxle" is just a differential bolted to the end of a TR6060. Its no more complicated than the Viper's transmission.

C5s and C6s do have to deal with two rubber "flex discs" in the driveshaft. These discs can crack and break with time. In practice, as long as replacements are available from GM its not much of a problem. You just check the discs when you replace a worn clutch.

This is a bigger deal than you would think. If the car sits, the seals loose their lube and dry out. They then crack easily. So, a 7K mile car can easily end up with bad seals. It's worse. Since the tranny uses ATF, it goes into the diff and thins out the diff fluid. The diff will blow the extra fluid out the vent tube. The tranny loses fluid and the diff fluid is compromised. Since there is no way to check the fluid easily, one can get into trouble quickly. A low milage C5/C6 with this setup needs to be checked. How do I know, a friend of mine lost his tranny & diff at a track event even though he had a tranny & diff cooler.

 

[TexasPettey]

I don't understand why Dodge doesn't make a larger deal out of the fact that the Viper is the only vert available. Run the '08 Viper vert around The Ring and compare that to any other convertable out there. Chevy will NEVER make a Z06 vert.

 

[Stealth]

Just came from a C6Z:

1. Horrible, horrible numb steering--maybe the new ratios in the '08s and ZR1 are better.

2. Styling of ZR1 waaaaay to close to others.

3. Interior is horrible. 2-tone in Viper plus carbon fiber dash makes the Viper look great.

4. Seats in ZR1 and Z are embarassing. They have a new seat by Lear they need to make standard.

5. Clutch weak in Z.

6. Engine looks cheap in Z.

7. Engine is fragile in Z.

8. Brakes are bad and weak in Z.
____________

That said, loved my Z, but love my Viper more.

 

[Grant]

This is a bigger deal than you would think. If the car sits, the seals loose their lube and dry out. They then crack easily. So, a 7K mile car can easily end up with bad seals. It's worse. Since the tranny uses ATF, it goes into the diff and thins out the diff fluid. The diff will blow the extra fluid out the vent tube. The tranny loses fluid and the diff fluid is compromised. Since there is no way to check the fluid easily, one can get into trouble quickly. A low milage C5/C6 with this setup needs to be checked. How do I know, a friend of mine lost his tranny & diff at a track event even though he had a tranny & diff cooler.

Thats true, and even if they don't sit its very common for the diffs to leak. Its not hard to check the diff fluid though; you don't even have to jack the car up.

You could also mention the electrical gremlins. During my last track day, I braked for a chicane only to see "Service ABS soon" pop up on the DIC. Now I've got some mildly-annoying flat spots

Everything I've heard about the Viper's brakes for track use indicates they are MUCH better than the C5 or C6 Z's. C6Z brakes need new rotors, pads and caliper bolts for serious use, or need to be replaced entirely. The C5 Z's brakes are worse, but have the advantage of being extremely cheap.

 

[wallbanger]

Your most valid point and the only reason Im not driving one of those fantastic machines is that weather its a Z06 or ZR1 it looks like a Z51. Other than that GM technology so far surpasses Chrsysler its pathetic. GM has built a car with all the luxuries of your Lexus makes it faster than a Viper and still is lighter than the Viper. So many people here talk about who wants a cup holder is a race car or who want heads up display in a race car or power seats? My observation on this board not many people drive there car like a race car weather its at the drag strip or on a road course. As for me I do both and there are a few here that do the same. Most people here seem to have the ability to own the car and keep it clean, and then want to bash a car that has every thing our cars have and a $hit load more. Other than exclusivity. I have owned 2 vipers and 4 corvettes one being a ZR1. When driving my car I feel cramped you sit way to high and are looking at the roof line of the car, you have no comfortable place to put your feet and its hot in the cabin, the power of the car is flat and very short lived, sure change the gears put a good tune in it and change the exhaust WOW it runs like it should. When I drive the Z06 there is room in the seat side to side I can recline the seat I can move my legs around the cabin is quiet you can acutally hear the radio without turning the volume so far up. The power band is very smooth and endless. But I love my car it just the reality and the truth Viper has the style Corvette has the function and perfomance best bang for you buck out there. Sorry Im just a realist. Not a racist I love all cars.

i always find it amusing how guys who drag strip and/or road course their car seem to think that somehow this elevates their opinion.......

Opinion is like ***, everybodys got one

 

[jessewallace]

i don't know about @ the race track, but on the street the z06 has almost NO personality whereas the viper has TONS. the z06 is down right boring to drive on the streets in comparison to the viper. yes, i have a z06 (2007 yello) so i'm not just chevy bashing. & i don't agree with it being as "REAL WORLD" friendly as alot of people say it is. i'm 6'3" 170lbs & often find that my lower back hurts when doing long hauls in the z06. never had that w/either of my vipers. the exhaust note on the z06 is much more pleasant to me than the viper's v10. the sat nav on the z06 *****. i've found that the z06 gets MORE attention than the viper, although for the love of god i don't know why.

i'm 100% buying an 09 viper. & it will be my 3rd viper i've owned.

went back & forth on the issue quite a bit w/the 08 & decided to wait for 09, but i wish i'd just stuck w/the viper line.

the z06 is nice & the 2nd i've owned ( i also had a 2002 z06) but the visceral link btwn you & the machine just isn't the same as it is w/a viper. in fact the 07 feels to me almost EXACTLY like my 02 did. the 07 is just a better version. plus it doesn't get as squirrley in the rain.

different purpose cars. i'm giving mine to my girl friend 2 drive ... the z06.
let her get groceries w/it.

I'll stick w/the viper.

 

[ViperGal]

Simply stated .. you're just one heck of a smart guy!

 

[jessewallace]

I think you hit the nail on the head. This is exactly why Chrysler cant even sell out 1200 '08 cars. I was 25 when I got my '06 and could have cared less about the Vipers shortcomings. But 2 years and 24k miles later I am in a love/hate relationship with the car.

i was kinda in the same boat as you mbacker, so i went BACK to a z06 FROM a viper (2005 vert). w/in a few days i began wishing i hadn't. it's just not as much fun to drive as a viper. @ least not on the street. if i were you i would maybe rent one for a week or so. or do one LOOOOOONG a$$ test drive w/a used z06. all that torque in the viper is addicting. & it ***** when it's gone.

 

[jessewallace]

t O R Q U E I S L I K E H E R O I N

 

[TAILWAG]

Congrats on the new car. It seems a lot of the deal breakers were a matter of opinion.
1. Convertible? Girls look pretty on them.
2. Small tires? I guess...LOL
3. The engine does look like hell...but I can't remember when did I ever drove with the hood open...but I guess if you are the type that goes to car shows all the time, then that might be a winner for you, but again, I am sure you bought this for other purposes, right?
4. Z06 has no balls? On this one you are absolutely dead wrong. When I drove the 08 Viper that WAS my biggest disappointment. The Viper "felt" slow in comparisson...so by your assestment a Formula car or a bike would have no balls since the revv is so high...
5. The seats ARE an absolute joke, and so is the steering wheel. - I don't think you will find anyone that will disagree with you here...they ARE the biggest joke in the automotive world.
6. If you are getting "massive" oversteer you simply need to learn how to drive a car...seriously. A car is only fast on the right hands and as fast as you can control it. Take an HPCC - that is the best gift you can give to yourself in any car.

Again, congrats on the car. You should not have to justify your purchase as it is your money and your opinion. I will take a Z06 over a ZR1...but after driving the 08 Viper, I am happy with the Z06 as far as performance...but like much better the looks of the Viper. I am not an attention ***** so the GTS is plenty for me.

Enjoy!!

This is why I chose a new '08 convertible over the Corvettes:
1. The Z06/ZR1 don't come as convertibles. Deal breaker right there. But read on.....
2. Complicated transaxle on the Vettes. Wait 'til it needs repair.
3. Engine speed driveshaft. Reliability and vibration issues. Wasted inertia.
4. Small tires (well....relatively speaking!)
5. Lousy rear suspension design (IMHO).
6. Engine looks like hell. Plastic trim pieces? Come on.....
7. Z06 has no balls. You have to rev it like an S2000.
8. Complicated supercharger setup on ZR1.
9. Seats are a joke. You get thrown around like in my wife's Mini.
10. No support from door or transmission tunnel. A viper cradles you, like a racecar.
11. Nowhere to pivot your arms when you hold the wheel.
12. Motorboat, corkscrew chassis motions on hard acceleration.
13. Numb steering. Buttons on the steering wheel. Come on....
14. Massive oversteer with stability control off.
15. Who wants stability/traction control anyway, in a sports car? Where's the satisfaction in that? In my daily ride, in winter, on ice? Sure......
16. Front end dive on hard braking.
17. Numb shifter.
18. Heads up display? Come on. Get a Lexus.....
19. Gauge positions.
20. Dry sump engines have reliability issues on the street.
21. Airbox setup pales alongside Viper.
22. Seats are too low in the Vette.
23. Windshield is too raked. Poor visibility and I also think there are vision errors in the glass.
24. Engine is either too quiet or too loud (with bypass).
25. Clutch takeup is abrupt.
26. Your $75K or $105K ride looks exactly like a $45K ride.
27. Everyone has one.
28. Viper is just as fast as a ZR1 for $20K less.
29. You don't have the Nurburgring lap record and you're not driving the world's fastest production car!
30. You can't have Bill Pemberton as your salesman!

David ***** (St. Louis)

 

[SnakeBitten]

I am not an attention ***** so the GTS is plenty for me.

Enjoy!!

A GTS is one of the most ogled cars on the road even after all these years. Still nothing like seeing one slithering down the road.

As for the Viper over the Z06/ZR1 my reasons would be a whole lot simpler. Viper is faster and looks better

 

[TAILWAG]

A GTS is one of the most ogled cars on the road even after all these years. Still nothing like seeing one slithering down the road.

As for the Viper over the Z06/ZR1 my reasons would be a whole lot simpler. Viper is faster and looks better

I have to agree...the GTS gets more looks and camara phone attack it...LOL