Why not have control

[Mach500]

I think both sides have valid points. So what's wrong with having it as an option?

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

It is an option from Woodhouse.

 

[All Car Guy And Viper NJ]

That is an unbelievably stupid comment. And you've had 10 hours to edit it but you still left it in. Brilliant.

It was not a stupid thing to say because people fight change even for the better. I went with a friend today to audition a car he was thinking of buying it was a 2004 911 turbo. The salesman demo the car by driving it agressively. He took us to a backroad with a pair of S's back to back he had us slow down to 20 in 2nd gear and then stand on it through the turns he said don't upshift stay in second at redline. These S's had lots of *** holes and ruts on turns and this car drove right through it. I almost lifted but didn't. My viper would gone straight off the road and killed me. I would never buy a foreign car (old School) (if your out of work eat your nissan) but it was impressive. There is no reason for people who just want to drive that wonderful viper need to die having an ice cream cone on their sunday outing. You never know when you enter a highway and accellerate to speed what it will do. It's BS. By the way at the end of the drive the 911 had the check engine light on said to drive to workshop right on the dash, and the clutch was smoking. Damm thing lets off right off the floor you have to push it down all the way to just release up.

 

[All Car Guy And Viper NJ]

Mr Black Mamba I think you could have left the age card out of it. Yes i am 65 but I have been driving hot rods since 1955. I also drive a Pantera with 443 HP., a 66 427 vette, and a 67 Must FB with a Genesis 427 side oiler with 550 HP. I have no problem or fear with any of those cars tearing the tires off of them. They are predictable but the Viper is like my first heart surgeon, a wild card. A little control for us old farts would be kind. Maybe I could have AARP give us a senior bluebird special. I have no accidents or tickets in the last 47 years what about you. I learned to street race in the Bronx and we never hurt anything or anyone. I drive a Chevy SS silverado for daily driver it hauls A, I can stay with most performance cars on the street especially coming off a ramp. But I don't track but I want to not die in the Viper. My 4 gran kids would miss me.

 

[Alabaster Mamba]

Well the the thing we have been trying to tell you all along is that you have to learn how to drive the car before you try use all of that power. You can't just get in it and put the pedal down to the floor. What you are wanting to do is to just get in the car and floor the accelerator without learning the characteristics of the car. Take things in moderation until you get to know the car. Geeze, go buy a new Z06 if you want TC. Almost everyone has told you to attend an HPDE to get to know your car.

 

[Viper ACR]

That is an unbelievably stupid comment. And you've had 10 hours to edit it but you still left it in. Brilliant.

I'm sorry but that is just funny .

I think if people are worried about dieing in a Viper cause it doesn't have Traction Control and is too crazy to handle at 100% . Then I think they should buy a car that they dont have to worry about killing them by pushing it to its limits . Then they will never have to worry about being in that position. Traction control isnt gonna save you from bad judgment.

 

[Viperfreak2]

Oh but it does. Statistics in Germany showed a 60% drop in single car accidents when equiped with stability control.

In English, a lot of these people with 'bad judgement' wrecked when driving without the nanny and most didn't when the car had it.

I see two clear camps here:
1) I know how to drive, I am a superior driver and nothing bad EVER happens to me because I AM.... just remember that when a car pulls out in front of you and the roads are damp. There are always situations when you are in control but others aren't. Drive a motorcycle then you might understand.
2) It's a safety net for public roads and I value life (mine and everyone around me) more than my ego.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

I learned to street race in the Bronx and we never hurt anything or anyone.

I learned to road race at Sebring.

I suppose that well explains our points of view.

 

[slaughterj]

Anyone know if the 2012 TC requirement will just mean the car has to be equipped with it, i.e., the user can turn it off, or whether all cars will have it operating all the time?

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Anyone know if the 2012 TC requirement will just mean the car has to be equipped with it, i.e., the user can turn it off, or whether all cars will have it operating all the time?

From what I've read it is proposed in 2012, not law yet.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

If only a proposal, we have time to lobby against more government control.

 

[DR EVIL]

My viper would gone straight off the road and killed me.

you think that this was due to traction control? You clearly do not know what you are talking about.

 

[propsail]

Traction control = brain + right foot.

~Craig

 

[All Car Guy And Viper NJ]

Dr Evil I could care little about traction control I can control that part of the car very well I am thinking stability control. That 911 had all wheeldrive and stability control . Just give me stability control keep your traction control don't need it.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Oh but it does. Statistics in Germany showed a 60% drop in single car accidents when equiped with stability control.

In English, a lot of these people with 'bad judgement' wrecked when driving without the nanny and most didn't when the car had it.

I see two clear camps here:
1) I know how to drive, I am a superior driver and nothing bad EVER happens to me because I AM.... just remember that when a car pulls out in front of you and the roads are damp. There are always situations when you are in control but others aren't. Drive a motorcycle then you might understand.
2) It's a safety net for public roads and I value life (mine and everyone around me) more than my ego.

Would like to see the data showing the 60% drop due to stability control vs no nanny.

 

[RedLiner]

I'll be right back, I gotta grab some more popcorn.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

NANNY link for DOT - http://www.dot.gov/affairs/dot3707.htm

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

The DOT study - leaves a lot to be desired for cause and effect, IMHO. Data compares older cars vs newer cars with the Nanny.

Look at and come to your own conclusion regarding cause and effect.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/regrev/evaluate/809790.html


Have to read the file again but I do not think the compared the number of cars on the road without vs with. Without knowing the accident rate 100,000 miles driven as most studies report these numbers suggest to me that the Nanny is not effective as most cars do not have the NANNY. So one would expect a higher number of accidents in a group of more cars or more miles driven.

Perhaps I missed something will reread the report.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Here is raw data go to page 83 and study the data and tell me how to conclude a nanny would reduce the accidents by 30%?

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/TSFAnn/TSF2004.pdf

Page 108 also points out a lot about driving habits.

 

[VENOMAHOLIC]

Dodge clearly made a statement when releasing details of the 08 Viper. Throttle by wire is on the latest 600 hp engine. TC is not even an option. This leaves me to believe that meeting emissions was the primary reason for throttle by wire (not TC) and that DC fully intends to keep the Viper as pure as possible. Those who want more tech nannies on the Viper will have to wait till at least the next Gen so deal with it.

Anybody that can afford a Viper can afford to get the aftermarket TC if they think it is necessary.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

My '94 is a daily driver. And I AX and go to a few track events. I think some of what is being argued is whether stability control is going to be forced upon both types of driving.

I would love ESL. And to be able to turn it off.

Stupid me, I've driven to work and come home while it's snowing. In the spring, the back roads here are fun until you run across a pile of wet leaves. After the recent 5 inches of rain in NY, the edges of the roads were puddles that might be 0.1" deep or 10" deep. There's all sorts of stuff on the "real" road that you won't have on the track and you can't practice for on the track.

Don't get me wrong, I have an '06 Charger with ESL that you can't fully disable. It stinks and is the classic nanny you don't want.

Besides, there are tons of details - for instance, the Charger ESL stops functioning at 87 (I think) MPH. So if you have an incident at 88 or at 86, what happens? And data recording will be there, too. Might as well save pedal and brake application history, no matter whether ESL was there or not!! If you want to call your congress representative, I think that's a bigger issue that ESL.

 

[FinalEd357]

I agree that it would be great to have traction control, having owned a c6z06 alongside my GTS. I'd like to hear the opinion of the families and loved ones left behind by the Viper owners who needed it but didn't have them. May God bless their souls and the hearts of the families. Drive carefully everyone!

 

[plumcrazy]

for the record, NOT all of us NJ guys are afraid of our cars and want this BS control stuff

 

[Camfab]

My feeling is that if it were available as an option, and when I say option, I mean as an extra add on when ordering the car, it would be okay. Not as a mandated feature on every car.

 

[Janni]

I fear that no manufacturer really wants to install a stability or traction control system and have it COMPLETELY turn off with the simple push of a button - because - the same folks that are ******** to get it mandatory here will be "turning it off to be a man" or to "get better feel" and wreck the damn thing and their families will sue Dodge for allowing it to be disabled so easily.

Most car forums where folks talk about driving with the ESP on and off, all say they drive with it off to "have more fun" and that will directly lead to someone doing something stupid because they either learned to drive with it on and save their bacon, or, they'll run out of talent and have nothing to save them -and then it'll be full time mandatory for everyone.

Thanks a lot.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Good point Janni. Also look at how many people blame "cold tires" for spinouts. Those are the same folks that will blame the electronic nanny for not working correctly or whatever.

 

[GTS Dean]

Oh but it does. Statistics in Germany showed a 60% drop in single car accidents when equiped with stability control.

In English, a lot of these people with 'bad judgement' wrecked when driving without the nanny and most didn't when the car had it.

It is somewhat of an ironic twist that the human gene pool used to be cleansed with regularity because stupid people only did incredibly stupid things once or twice before the odds caught up with them. Now, idiots live on and reproduce - perpetuating the idiot gene pool.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

It is somewhat of an ironic twist that the human gene pool used to be cleansed with regularity because stupid people only did incredibly stupid things once or twice before the odds caught up with them. Now, idiots live on and reproduce - perpetuating the idiot gene pool.

It is everyone trying to save everybody from everything Deano. The freedom for a company to produce the kind of car its consumer wants is not as important I guess.

 

[INSOMNIAC]

Viper is a very tricky car to drive. No questions about that. Short wheelbase, high torque at low rpms and inadequate stock tires make the Viper experience challenging, fun, but scary for most of us. (That’s why the Comp Coupe has a longer wheelbase btw.)

It’s unrealistic to consider every Viper driver as track warriors with extensive track experience and/or doing this professionally. Most of the Viper drivers never take their cars to the track or have never driven any car of similar power.

Viper is a perfect foundation for high power applications, and when you modify the Viper to serious high power levels, driving the car at its full performance becomes very challenging and scary.

Ask any 800 RWHP or above Viper drivers if they have their car under full control at all times, if there were any time when they were scared to hell, and if they would like to have traction control with on/off option.

You will be surprised how many experienced drivers in the Viper community will boo at the idea of traction control first but will turn it ON if the Viper came with it. You will be surprised how many track instructors end up in the walls with the Vipers.

A well engineered Active Stability Control where you can control the level of intrusion (like the system in F430) will do nothing but improve the Viper. I can’t apply different brake pressure to each wheel independently while driving. Can you?

Loose the rear of a Viper at 60 mph and you can control it, loose it at 100 mph and an experienced driver can steer out of it but loose the rear at 160 mph and not even Michael Schumacher can control it. And yes the Formula 1 cars have traction control.

Stop banging your chest. Viper even comes with electric adjustable pedals for Christ sake. What’s wrong with Active Stability Control making the Viper an easier car to control?

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

And yes the Formula 1 cars have traction control.

Not after this year.