Why Vipers don't handle well?

[trumper Z06]

Re: Why Vipers don\'t handle well?

Welcome to the board. Come to a Viperdays event - we'll make a believer out of you!


Photo of VRL race at Mid Ohio by Trevor Walker.

Heeeey, isn't that Ron Fellows leading the Pack? Oops, soorriiieee, yellow & Black Corvette C5-R Paint schemes confusing!

After two days at the VIR Viper Days event, I agree Vipers do handle. On the track, Vipers have the HP. advantage, Z06 Vettes (somewhat lighter), brake and handle a bit better. It really comes down to the driver! Both will blow away stock Bimmers on the track!

 

[HOGDEALER]

Re: Why Vipers don\'t handle well?

I had my GTS at Portland International Raceway last month with a dozen M3's, Z06 Vettes, Pouches and a 360 Ferrari. None could hang with me. I was pulling 20 car lengths a lap on the M3's. My Crew stopped watched everyone. The second fastest car there was a Camero! Until the V-10 beemer comes out there is no real contest.

 

[Viperzilla]

Re: Why Vipers don\'t handle well?

I had my GTS at Portland International Raceway last month with a dozen M3's, Z06 Vettes, Pouches and a 360 Ferrari. None could hang with me. I was pulling 20 car lengths a lap on the M3's. My Crew stopped watched everyone. The second fastest car there was a Camero! Until the V-10 beemer comes out there is no real contest.

Again, keep in mind we're only talking about handling, not going around the track where engine power is also used. On some courses you can make up lost time in the corners with pulling hard down the straits, so you can't use track times to compare if it's a good handling car or not. You need to look into g-forces, skidpad, and handling characteristics (understeer, neutral, oversteer). The mags may have quoted the 3s as the best handling car because it blends good g-forces and great handling characteristics. Keep in mind these guys don't own the cars, so they only have a week or probably less to do what they can with the performance. Then they drive it around. This doesn't give them time to get used to the cars tendencies, so they'll pick the one that feels most comfortable to them since they only have a week. a few reasons that they may not have picked the Viper is because the car follows ruts like a hound on a rabbit, the stiff suspension doesn't give as much on bumpy roads, and they say "The Viper doesn't give much warning at the limits. Meaning snap oversteer."

 

[Sonny 00 GTS ACR]

Re: Why Vipers don\'t handle well?

Viperzilla,

I enjoy your posts and this isn't meant as a flame, but this is turning into a fairly usless argument. Who cares what the magazine says. I'm not driving the magazine, I'm driving the car! Setting up slalom cones in a parking lot or going to a skid pad are very useful tests but don't speak to the pleasure of driving a car to it's limit on a well designed road course that has some true rhythm.

Now last time I checked, engines were included in the purchase of most cars, so to take them out of the equation doesn't make much sense. The engine's power and throttle response are very important in achieving the weight transfer necessary to good handling. This is not a static condition but a dynamic situation where the suspension, engine, tires and driver have to interact to produce the "handling characteristics" that you refer to.

The track is the real world where cars can be driven at their limits lap after lap. After reading many of the posts it would seem the authors have sufficient reason to dispute the claims made by the article.

 

[Viperzilla]

Re: Why Vipers don\'t handle well?

Sonny, post not taken wrongly. I agree with EVERYTHING you said. I posted what I did because some on here were mumbling and grumbling about because the Viper wasn't picked as the best handling. That's why I said that mags only have about a week with the cars. They also started "my car handles better because I can go around the track faster" (no flame fellas). That's not necessarily true. At Viper Days @ VIR, I saw a Porsche 911 GT3 battle it out with a Competition Coupe. The Porsche took the turns so well (better handling, possibly more experience), that it kept with the CC, even though the CC had more power. I think on lap 7 or 8, the Porsche finally passed the said CC. Now you can't do that in an M3 against Viper (both in stock form), because the M3 has no where near the same engine grunt. I also meant what I said in that the M3 is not in the Viper class, so you can't compare them on the track to get a fair comparison. Yet, I agree, put the cars on the track to push the cars and drivers limits. But, you just can't make a comparison (apples to oranges) between M3 and Viper, hence the different classes they are in for ALMS/Le Mans.

I'm just trying to help untangle the reason why the mags may have picked the M3 over Viper in best handling.

P.S. my dad and I loved the way your GTSs sounded at VIR!

 

[pdmracing]

Re: Why Vipers don\'t handle well?

This is a crazy thread. Here's the solution; bring both to a Viper Days Event and see who turns in a fast time. My money is on a Viper any day of the week. The "handling" argument is stupid.

To disagree, the fastest car in viper days SS class @ VIR was a Z06 W/street tires! The bottom line it is all up to the driver. To someone who really knows what they are doing , the Viper is an excellent handling car. But it certainly is far from the best. Ever drive a lotus elise? porsche boxster?, Fiat X19? There are many fine handling rides out there & depending on the venue, any car can be spanked.

Now onto the subject of magazine writters. I had one take a cross country trip with me to VOI Vegas & he couldnt believe how nice the GTS was to live with. But if you read the reviews in the magazine , it was an ill riding, weekend only toy.

 

[jrkermode]

Re: Why Vipers don\'t handle well?

"Good handling" is not something which can be measured objectively. It is a matter of taste. It is extremely common for two highly, experienced, professional drivers (*** or straight!) to disagree on the "best handling" set-up of a car they are about to drive in an endurance event. Same day, same track, same car, same level of driver talent. Two different opinions of the car's "handling".

So, when someone describes "handling" think of that assesment more like a movie review. A measure of likes and dislikes, not an objective measure of performance.


P.S. However, to add more fuel to the fire, pick up the latest issue of GrassRoots Motorsports. Their specialty is Autox cars and their preparation. They prounced the RT/10 a great handling car and picked it #1 over the RX7 turbo, Supra turbo, NSX, 300ZX turbo, MR2 turbo, Corvette & 3000GT (turbo, AWD).

 

[Russ Oasis]

Re: Why Vipers don\'t handle well?

What Sonny said is correct. Most of the other arguments are like kids battling over whose Dad can beat up the other Dad. First, it goes without saying that the driver is one of the key components in the comparison of two cars. One must ASSUME that the same driver is testing both cars on the track. Next, Sonny hit the nail on the head when he said that in the real world, cars have engines. If you pulled the engine out of an Enzo and replaced it with an average V-8 or V-6, how great would the car handle then? The engine is in integral part of the car which you are comparing. You can't say "if it didn't have that big engine it wouldn't beat the so and so car." It does have that big engine and therefore on a track (which is where the B.S. stops)it may or may not beat another car. Given equal drivers, on a world class track (like many that Viper Days goes to)there are no Z-06's, M-3's, M-5's or Porsche street cars, that are going to beat an SRT-10 (for lap times)with the same qualified driver testing each. If you want to continue to disagree, be my guest, but it is B.S. bench racing to the max. Just my .02.

 

[Viperzilla]

Re: Why Vipers don\'t handle well?

It is extremely common for two highly, experienced, professional drivers (*** or straight!) to disagree on the "best handling" set-up of a car they are about to drive in an endurance event. Same day, same track, same car, same level of driver talent. Two different opinions of the car's "handling".

One good example of this is that David Coulthard, who races for McLaren-Mercededs F1 team, like the car to have a bias towards understeer. Mika Haikennen, former teammate of Coulthard's, like more oversteer.

 

[Sonny 00 GTS ACR]

Re: Why Vipers don\'t handle well?

Good point 'Zilla, personal preference has a lot to do with the car evaluations as you mentioned. Most of that lattitude can be achieved through tire pressure or shock adjustments. (The stock ACR does allow shock adjustment)

Probably outside the normal "evaluations" would be fine tuning the camber, followed by changes in the spring rate.

Even without changing sway bars, quite a bit can be done to a stock Viper at the track while still allowing an easy switch back for the ride home. The adjustments can certainly accommodate the range of an individual's driving preferences.

My point being that if the car provides the means, but you choose not to set up the car for a particular track and a particular driver, you won't really know what either is capable of.

 

[Tom and Vipers]

Re: Why Vipers don\'t handle well?

Lateral G's are misleading.

I borrowed an 84 Corvette from a friend (it was a ******) which had the "go-kart" Z51 suspension.

Taking it easy, I was doing power slides with this car.

It was so easy to control.

That kind of cavalier behavior with a Viper and it will eat your lunch.

I think a car that is easy to take to the limit "handles" better than one that doesn't. What is the point of having a car if you have to be a race car driver to get to the limit?