Will a 300 shot of NOS break the car loose in 3rd or 4th gear?

[MannyC]

This was originally in the DLM thread, so I moved it to a new topic. The question is this: With a car that is already putting about 500 or so horsepower to the rear wheels, if you engage a 200 or 300 shot of NOS, what will happen under wide open throttle in the various gears ?

1st gear we know. 2nd gear, I assume you will be all over the place. 3rd gear, during a race, the car will already be going pretty fast, so won't the tires not break loose?

I am asking about my Gen I car which has 3:54 gears and brand new Pilot tires. I might get stickier street tires next, but these are new and I will use these for now.

So what do you guys with NOS have to say about this?

SUPERBAR

Yes, N02 hits all at ONCE.Like a Ton of Bricks.. Spin city. YOu wil sit there and spin and never hook up......
You'd better have some bad a$$ slicks, even at that, your 200 or 300 shot will be useless on the street..

Gerald,

You guys are driving these 800, 900 and even 1000 horse powered cars, and when you are racing, once you're out of the first two gears, I assume you are shifting into 3rd and flooring it right? So what is the difference between that and me shifting into 3rd, hitting the NOS with a 200 shot and it hooking and just going? Is there that much lag in the superchargers that the power is not all at once? I'm going to move this to a new thread to get opinions of those running this much NOS.

 

[Martin D]

In my experience - with your power level, the 200 shot and a full bottle at 1000psi, should spin in 3rd gear. You should not get uncontrolable wheel spin though. And you will not spin in 4th. It will be VERY different if you go with Direct port. I am talking about pre TB's fogger.

With Direct port, Forget it. 3rd and 4th are useless on the street.

Regards,

 

[phiebert]

I use BTR's propane/nos combo kit. I have bullet cats and free flow mufflers but stock headers. The usual smooth tubes, etc. I suspect my car is about the same as a Gen II car HP with my mods before I hit the Nitrous. I also have 3.55 gears.

So it sounds like we have a similar set up. I have the largest jets on which I believe is supposed to be a 225 shot. I get a bit extra out of it because I changed thermostats to run my Nitrous bottle at around 1100 psi (yeah I'm nuts, let's not change the thread to how long I'm going to live). I'm into torque and not so much focused on the RWHP since I like the seat of the pants feel. With the high pressure and everything working right I have a dyno run that was around 800 ft/lbs of torque.

Now, breaking loose depends on a lot of things, mostly tires, road conditions and temperature. I too have newer Pilots and I find them pretty sticky. I had BFG drag radials before and I think the Pilots actually stick better, at least in summer on warm roads. I'm pretty happy with them but am trying a set of Kumho's next. I've tried everything but those I think!

So to answer your question, with warm tires and road I will spin in 1st, spin a bit in second but by the time I am ending second and hitting third I've hooked and am fine. In fact, I just had my car on the Indy track two days ago on a very hot day for here (high 90's) after a full day of cars qualifying. So the track was sticky and I was able to hook with just a little squawk when I shifted into second. To be honest though, that makes me a little nervous when it happens. It's fun, but I've already twisted one half-shaft off (an after-market lifetime guaranteed one)! On the other hand, I've had tires that were meant for track racing and are terrible cold. With those on I can spin nearly up to 4th gear!

So there are a lot of variables. I've heard people talk about how their stock car breaks loose in 3rd gear. That doesn't happen to me so either they have an extremely strong stock car or are pinning the engine and dropping the clutch into third! You could probably squawk in 6th if you don't mind dropping the clutch at 6000 rpm!

Hope that helps a little.

PS. I don't think the guy who says a 200/300 shot is useless on the street has done it. I've had mine for 3 years and use it nearly daily on the street. I launch like a torpedo at nearly every stop light I can! You just have to know how to drive. You don't stamp on the gas when your in 1st gear obviously or you'll hit the rev limiter. And yes your back end will fish tail around a little in second but as long as you keep it pointed straight you can hit it in second and third. Just do around 20 drag strip runs to get used to it and then keep in mind that a street is a lot more slippery and you'll have very useful street power.

I also tend to disagree with Martin, not trying to start a war though. I don't think direct port makes that big of a difference. I back this up in theory and in practice. I've seen direct port cars not make much if any more horsepower than tb injection. Think about it, although yes you will get more even distribution and probably slightly higher volume of nitrous by direct port, you won't get that much more (maybe 10-20%). Where is the Nitrous from the throttle body going to go? It ain't going to back out through the filter and out the front of the car when you are pointing the jets at the manifold and the engine is sucking like a tornado. So the chance that initially your leading cylinders are going to get more than the back ones is there, but within a split second you are getting nitrous everywhere. In fact, this may give you that theoretical lag you want? As power increases over 1/10th of a second instead of instantly.

 

[MannyC]

In my experience - with your power level, the 200 shot and a full bottle at 1000psi, should spin in 3rd gear. You should not get uncontrolable wheel spin though. And you will not spin in 4th. It will be VERY different if you go with Direct port. I am talking about pre TB's fogger.

With Direct port, Forget it. 3rd and 4th are useless on the street.

Regards,

WHy is direct port NOS any different than TB foggers in terms of wheel spin if the NOS shot is the same (lets say a total of 200 HP.) This is the first I have heard of this.

 

[MannyC]

So, theoretically, if you were to race a fast Bike... let's just say a Suzuki Hayabusa, what gear and speed in a rolling start would you be in and would you hit the NOS right off the bat or wait until a certain RPM or gear?

 

[Ray W]

The newer and or softer the tire the better the traction.

With a 250 shot on original Pilots my car had to be in 3rd
and sometimes that was too soon unless I rolled into the throttle.

With new 19" Pilots and even with 3:55's the car is hooked
at about 65mph in second.

 

[Martin D]

I have raced plenty of Bikes. Go from a 70 roll in 3rd. Spray the whole time.

 

[MannyC]

I'm new to the Viper and will be granny shifting as fast as I can as I don't want to miss a shift with NOS on -- any comments on this? Good / Bad ? This is not for pink slips, this is for fun

 

[Alternative]

I'm new to the Viper and will be granny shifting as fast as I can as I don't want to miss a shift with NOS on -- any comments on this? Good / Bad ? This is not for pink slips, this is for fun

Get an MSD RPM window switch. It will save you from any driver induced errors (mis-shift or overrev) in case the nitrous is on. You will have to send the unit back to MSD so they can modify it for a Viper application.

 

[MannyC]

Where to buy?

 

[Jack B]

Torque is what spins the tires whether it is direct port or pre-throttle body foggers. Most NOS cars will have approximately 15% more torque than an equivalent hp SC car. In addition, the torque curve comes in very quickly. Taking both into consideration the NOS car should be harder to control. I have tried Nitto's, Kumho's and Mickey Thompson ET's, by far the ET's are the most controllable. Either the Nitto's or Kumho's can be easily spun in first or second, Third gear is not a problem, especially if you do not power shift. All this is based on my car which has about 750-800 ft-lbs of torque at 3600 rpm's.

A couple of further opinions a applying the power, a set of pre-throttle body foggers are limited to approximately 240 Flywheel hp. Typically you have to go dual stage or direct port to go beyond the 240 hp level. A progressive system might be a nice street package, but, probably hurt the ET's on the strip.

Higher numerical gears are questionable in a car with 800 ft-lbs of torque. I am running 3.33's, however, the ET's are approximately 1.25 inches larger (diameter) then the pilots, this turns the 3.33's into 3.12's, versus, the stock 3.07's, not much different.

 

[Alternative]

Where to buy?

You can get the MSD rpm window switch at any speed shop, or you can check online. Summit Racing has the lowest price I've seen:
http://store.summitracing.com/product.asp?p=1135&searchtype=ecat

Once you have it, you'll need to send it back to MSD (www.msdignition.com). Put a note inside the box with your contact information, and that it needs to be modified for a Dodge Viper application. Send it UPS so you can track the package. Once MSD has it, call them to check status.

 

[BigCarrot]

I used to have video of my last car spinning hoosier road race tires all the way down the track! In fact, I was a little sideways when I tripped the lights! 200 shot

 

[Dixter]

Having watched the Big Carrot run in the quarter with his 200 shot I can
say without a doubt that I'm sure the car was just floating down the track,
and at a strange angle at that.

It was quick and scarey.

 

[MannyC]

Having watched the Big Carrot run in the quarter with his 200 shot I can
say without a doubt that I'm sure the car was just floating down the track,
and at a strange angle at that.

LOL! Not sure why, but that last line had be cracking up "...and at a strange angle at that." BAHAHAH! Too funny.

 

[BigCarrot]

It is a little crazy to get sideways at 135mph with a concrete barrier three feet to the left of you!

 

[MannyC]

With a 200 shot, how did you get sidways at 135 MPH? What did you do to do that? Specifics would be great, so I attempt not to do that.

 

[phiebert]

With a 200 shot, how did you get sidways at 135 MPH?

Crank your steering wheel sharply.

 

[MannyC]

No, but seriously....

 

[phiebert]

No, but seriously....

I was serious. A 200 shot isn't a Jato rocket! There are two ways to get sideways at 135 mph with a 200 shot. One is to turn sharply, the other is to miss a shift and downshift to break the tires loose. Punching the gas in 3rd or 4th gear at those speeds on a sticky track will not break your tires loose. Even top fuel dragsters rarely break loose at that speed with 4 times the horsepower. I've heard of track days ending though because a Viper missed a shift and hit the wall...but it wasn't due to astronomical horsepower.

I'm sure guys like Tom Welch and Albert Chlouber (9 and 10 second runs with Nitrous) could attest to the fact that you shouldn't have any problems going straight at those speeds.

 

[BigCarrot]

I had the nitrous on a button, and everytime I hit it it broke the tires loose. Every time! It sounds ********, but I had a ton of witnesses! I think I ran an 11.8 at 135 mph! Great speed, but the time was pretty lackluster.

 

[BigCarrot]

No, but seriously....

I was serious. A 200 shot isn't a Jato rocket! There are two ways to get sideways at 135 mph with a 200 shot. One is to turn sharply, the other is to miss a shift and downshift to break the tires loose. Punching the gas in 3rd or 4th gear at those speeds on a sticky track will not break your tires loose. Even top fuel dragsters rarely break loose at that speed with 4 times the horsepower. I've heard of track days ending though because a Viper missed a shift and hit the wall...but it wasn't due to astronomical horsepower.

I'm sure guys like Tom Welch and Albert Chlouber (9 and 10 second runs with Nitrous) could attest to the fact that you shouldn't have any problems going straight at those speeds.

Oh, Phiebert, were you there too? Now I'm embarrassed for making that up!

 

[phiebert]

OK, I'm willing to admit I'm wrong. I wasn't trying to disagree with you and I haven't seen you run, to be honest I hadn't even read your earlier post before I made mine.

If you are hitting 135 mph that is pretty serious horsepower. But I'm curious then too, why are you sideways at those speeds. Are you getting your rpm way up before you drop into the next gear? I don't have my time slips handy but I've done mid 11 second runs at slightly lower speeds on a 225 shot (probably a little more with extra NOS bottle pressure) and don't have the slippage problem.

 

[phiebert]

Just also realized that you are "button control" Nitrous while mine comes on with WOT. But I too have an override button that I could use to "flick" it on I guess. Maybe I'll have to try that at 135 mph and see what happens!

No flame was intended with my post, just hoping I can tune my car like yours if you can get wheel spin at 135 mph!

What torque are you at on your car?

 

[BigCarrot]

No clue! At that speed, my time would be MUUUUCH lower with traction. The spinning could have been due to a number of things. Poor track prep maybe? Mine was a Gen 2, so I guess it had a little more power. It put down over 600hp and a ton of torque.

 

[phiebert]

Yeah, at 135 I would think you could almost break into the 9's!! If you go to dragtimes.com you'll find Vipers running similar speeds and be at 10.1 seconds. You need new tires!!

What else have you done to your car because a 200 shot of Nitrous shouldn't get you there alone. My car is modded to keep up with Gen II's without Nitrous so you must have some great other mods. If not, hang on to that car, 'cause it's something special. And if you want to sell it, call me first!

 

[phiebert]

Using a HP calculator (based on speed) if your car is around 3500 pounds you are making about 670 HP. That should get you a 10.1 trap time with proper traction. Go to this site to try the calculator yourself... http://www.dsm.org/tools/calchp.htm

 

[BigCarrot]

That car is actually gone already. I ended up blowing th motor up on nitrous. I'm gonna make a go at it with this one though. We'll see.

 

[MannyC]

Using a HP calculator (based on speed) if your car is around 3500 pounds you are making about 670 HP. That should get you a 10.1 trap time with proper traction. Go to this site to try the calculator yourself... http://www.dsm.org/tools/calchp.htm

I have never dragged a Viper. As a noobie dragger, running 525 RWHP on stock tires and 3:54 gears and hitting the NOS at the appropriate time (3rd gear?) what kind of times can be expected?

 

[BigCarrot]

You should easily be in the 10's.