Window Regulator -GEN 3/4 Archilles Heel

[Steve M]

I talked to a Viper owner today that is only about 45 minutes from my shop and he has agreed to let me test the motor operation. I am just waiting for him to tell me when we can get together and do it. I hope to do it yet this week.
I will let you know how it does.
Tom

Well, that sure beats 4+ hours each way for me...if it falls through, let me know. I should have my hooptie back on the ground this evening.

 

[brNOR]

There's a metal C pin that holds the glass to a plastic mount on the forward end of the window. Sometimes that slips out and allows your window to grind against the mount. That might be the pop you heard and the reason it sounds like its rubbing inside the door.

Thanks! I'm afraid I might damage the window regulator if I continue using it, so I guess I will have to get it looked at. I have the impression that you have to be experienced to remove the door panel?

The windows are supposed to drop a little when you open the door and raise after you close the door. There's a reset for this, Ithink it is hold the widinw switch with the window all the way down for 5 seconds, then raise it and hold for 5 seconds, repeat 3 times.

Ok. The problem is the window goes too high, so I might damage the regulator or window holding the window switch in the up position. I guess a calibration of how high the window should go would have to be done by a professional?

The switches on the door are the door lock and unlock. The switches on console are for the windows. You will see an indication on your dash flash door unlocked sometimes, if you push the door switch down it will lock the door.

Ah, now I feel stupid. Thanks!

 

[latamud]

Thanks! I'm afraid I might damage the window regulator if I continue using it, so I guess I will have to get it looked at. I have the impression that you have to be experienced to remove the door panel?

Ok. The problem is the window goes too high, so I might damage the regulator or window holding the window switch in the up position. I guess a calibration of how high the window should go would have to be done by a professional?

Ah, now I feel stupid. Thanks!

I've removed to door panel a few times in the past couple months.

The window going too high, that is probably the peg on the forward plastic mount slipped out of the plastic mount when the window was moving down. The glass probably got stuck on the rubber triangle piece while the regulator was moving down. As the c clip pops out then the window peg pops out, and the regulator plastic piece continues to move down. The weight of the glass drops allowing the peg to land on top of the plastic piece. Now, when you raise the window it is already positioned about half an inch too high. I had the same problem, which I documented earlier in this thread. Pics and all. I didn't treat it in time and ended up breaking the rear tab.
The Greg started a new thread http://forums.viperclub.org/threads/657127-Window-Woes-NOT-the-regulator!?p=3114893#post3114893 . I posted some instructions. The caution here is to be careful not to let the weight of the glass to slip past the plastic mounting piece. You can do this yourself if you feel inclined. You do not need a professional. A professional possible has never seen this problem before either, and might end up braking it like I did because the will go in blind. Learn from my lesson.

 

[tmills]

Update on the regulator project.
After three weeks of work, investment and research I am sorry to say that the regulator project doesn’t look like it is going to work. The body control module is much more involved with the regulator motor that I originally thought it might be. The motor has a built in “Hall signal”. This is the signal that the body module uses to tell the motor what to do. Window drop, express down and etc. It has a magnet on the armature and a sensor in the wiring pigtail that keeps track of the revolutions of the armature and relays this information to the control module. After a lot of fabricating and trial and error I have the window going up and down just fine but unless some electrical engineer can come up with a work around for the Hall signal I guess we are “dead in the water”
Tom

 

[Steve M]

Well poop.

 

[tmills]

At the very least POOP

 

[fastandloud]

Say this is all a joke...PLEASE!

 

[cubican]

There has to be a way, how the prowlers windows work on the drop down.

 

[tmills]

The Prowlers do not have the computer controlling the windows. No window drop and the express down is only on the left window and is controlled from the switch.

 

[Viktimize]

Update on the regulator project.
After three weeks of work, investment and research I am sorry to say that the regulator project doesn’t look like it is going to work. The body control module is much more involved with the regulator motor that I originally thought it might be. The motor has a built in “Hall signal”. This is the signal that the body module uses to tell the motor what to do. Window drop, express down and etc. It has a magnet on the armature and a sensor in the wiring pigtail that keeps track of the revolutions of the armature and relays this information to the control module. After a lot of fabricating and trial and error I have the window going up and down just fine but unless some electrical engineer can come up with a work around for the Hall signal I guess we are “dead in the water”
Tom

So are you using a whole different motor then, that doesn't contain this sensor?

 

[tmills]

Yes I use a different motor and I also researched using the Viper motor but it won't fit and I looked at adapting it to fit but it is quite a bit smaller motor and I would have to make a new gear for it and then I don't think it will have enough torque to raise the window and the cost would prohibitive. And I was not able to find a motor big enough that would have the "hall signal". I will spend some more time researching that possibility.
Tom

 

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Tom, contact me with the details of what is required I may be able to help. I'll PM my contact information.

 

[ROCKET62]

Sure would be nice if Chrysler stepped up to the plate and took responsibility for this obvious design flaw. Makes me laugh about "the great relationship" that the VCA has with Chrysler.

 

[Steve M]

Just going to throw this one out there: my wife is an electrical engineer, and also works with a guy that is really good with electronics. The more technical details you have about how this hall-effect sensor works and how the computer interprets it, the better chance they would have to come up with an idea to address the issue. Is there something in a service manual that describes it, or would that reside with one of the engineer types at SRT?

 

[SSGNRDZ_28]

I am an electrical engineer but am not versed on the Viper specific regulator. I'm in contact with Tom. There is going to have to be a way with electronics or mechanical gearing to get the signal the BCM is expecting in relation to window travel IMO to get it working. The BCM uses this signal to know how to control the motor.

 

[Steve M]

I am an electrical engineer but am not versed on the Viper specific regulator. I'm in contact with Tom. There is going to have to be a way with electronics or mechanical gearing to get the signal the BCM is expecting in relation to window travel IMO to get it working. The BCM uses this signal to know how to control the motor.

I wonder if asking Grailkeeper for the technical details of how this system works would net anything? I'm guessing not since this product would be in direct competition with the Mopar replacements, but I feel like they (SRT) either owe us a better replacement part option or need to pony up some info so we can come up with something ourselves. We put a man on the moon using 1960's technology...surely we can figure out how to fix these damn window motors.

 

[Nadine UK GTS]

I have a good friend too that's an elec / computer engineer, I've not had a chance to look into it yet, but we had a quick think about it and this is what he said...I would think that the motor unit is a cheap simple unit with just a hall effect sensor inside it to give feedback (square wave or pulses) to the body control module (BCM). The BCM being an intelligent device, can drive the window motor and act upon the feedback signal. So, by counting the pulses read back from the motor's internal sensor, it will know the exact position of the window at any given time. For example when you release a door, I suspect that it would drive the motor down and count say 10 pulses, when you close the door, it then drives the motor back up and counts another 10 pulses. (Note I've picked 10 as an arbitary number, the actual ammount will depend upon how the hall effect sensor is configured in the motor itself). Just think of it as a sensor similar to a speed one on your Viper trans, where it gives so many pulses per revolution. As the window motor is geared, it may just be counting revolutions of the motor shaft as it would take many rotations to turn the window gear/screw which in turn lifts the window. This intelligent method means Dodge can use cheap motors etc elsewhere on the car with none of the hassle of position switches on widow runners or the associated wiring. Controlling the motors with a BCM will save from burnt out motors, say if you keep power applied (switch pressed) because they have not detected one of the required limit switches....

 

[tmills]

Nadine, you are correct in your assessment of how it works. I looked at the possibilities of using the original motor that would eliminate the electrical issue but it is just not feasible. The motor has to have enough power to run the window up and down at a reasonable speed and it will have to have a built in hall sensor. I am looking at the possibility of finding another motor that would be adaptable to this project. It may take a little time and I will keep you informed. I have way too much invested in this already and I really hate to give up.
Tom

 

[malcoll]

Somehow a solution needs to be found.... I just had my driver's door regulator replaced three thousand miles after the last replacement said regulator.... that's fine I guess...as long as the warranty lasts, but it's up in May 2013..........

 

[Thom]

Assuming your motor has a steel output shaft or gear, can you simply add a proximity sensor to pulse one or more times with each revolution of the motor? Or an optical sensor?

 

[tmills]

There is just no reasonable way or the room to put a magnet and sensor pickup on the output shaft of my motor. The Viper motor has it built inside. I still may look at adapting the Viper motor to see if it has enough power or another motor with a built in hall signal.

 

[cubican]

Thank you for looking into it Mr mills

 

[Alabaster Mamba]

I know this may sound stupid but is there a possibility of using a motor or setup from another car that uses window indexing? The windows on the Corvette C6's use window indexing.

Also, is there any chance that window setup on the Gen V can be retrofitted for our Gen IIIs and IVs? I know it is premature since we haven't seen how they operate. But the possibility of a fix may be simply using the latest and greatest.

 

[tmills]

That is one of the things I am looking into, another motor I can adapt to the project. I also looked at the gen V. So far there is no information for a part number on the gen V but the part number for the gen III and IV is listed as including 2003 through 2013 models. Which doesn't surprise me a bit if it will carry on through the current model. It's a built in profit center.
Tom

 

[Rads]

Thanks for all the effort you're putting into this. My 03 is starting the "clack of death" noises. Pretty embarassing when you roll your window down to holler at girls . You've got an order for driver/pass sides when you get it all figured out.

 

[brantdw]

I just keep my windows down. Crap, I was hoping for some solution. Hope all of you Viper nerds can find something that works.

 

[tmills]

I have a guy working on the "hall signal" problem. He thinks he can find a solution to use my motor. We will see.
Tom

 

[1bad540]

Thanks for the effort you put into this!!!!!!!

 

[brNOR]

Just confirmed my regulator is broken. Hope you come up with a solution Tom! I'll keep my windows down for now...

The damage:

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[fastandloud]

You can do this Tom...thanks for fighting the good fight!!!