Woodhouse Performance - New Wing/Splitter

[pteam]

Well thats because you are a really good road racer. I haven't even been on a road race track yet. My car is a convertible made for crusing, I'm not a racer. Although you are used to the car and can probably use the extra horsepower and it would make you faster, which is why you did the belanger mods, for more horsepower.

 

[fergy]

Well thats because you are a really good road racer. I haven't even been on a road race track yet. Although you are used to the car and can probably use the extra horsepower and it would make you faster, which is why you did the belanger mods, for more horsepower.

The bellanger mod doesn't add significant HP; maybe 15 HP at best. I got them off a wrecked viper because they sounded so sweet. Put your car on a road track so you'll understand. You may be able to out pull a Miata in the straights, but when he's on your ass all the way around the track and finally passess you in a turn and you can't keep up then maybe you'll understand. It's happened to me and that's how I know. Don't get me wrong, HP is important, but is way down the list of things to improve your track performance. The only way to get rid of that muscle car ego is to put the muscle car on the track. Until then, it's just a bunch of words.

 

[pteam]

A miata is not gonna pass me. A miata is not going to pass even a stock viper on any course.

 

[fergy]

A miata is not gonna pass me. A miata is not going to pass even a stock viper on any course.

Hahahahahahaha. A bold and confident statement. Talk to Keith Verges sometime. He has a Viper and a Miata. I can assure you he'll pass you and based on the ego I see coming through your messages you'll be pissed when it happens. Don't get me wrong. I thought the same thing. You've admited to not ever tracking your car and yet you seem so confident that you know how to do it. I find that interesting. Most anybody here that regularly tracks their car will tell you the same but I have a feeling you wouldn't believe them either. Too bad you're in Ohio. I'd invite you out to Motorsport Ranch where I'm a member and you could see for yourself.

 

[RTTTTed]

Actually, I followed a Pro Miata around a set of corners at PIR. I just kept up to him. JonB, my instructor, mentioned that the Miata could actually go a little faster while I was limited by my PS2s. So yes, a Pro Miata could definitely leave you behind in the corners if he's slicked and you're only street tire equipped. My car's got a lot of mods.

Slicked, a street Viper can spank a Pro Miata so don't worry about it too much, you could always put slicks on your Viper and do the "spankin'".

Ted

 

[RTTTTed]

The Mazda did spin out in the chicane and took his bumper home sperarate from the car. He also spent awhile massaging the fender. I love this pic.

You must be registered for see images

The Mazda also went home on a trailer and I drove 800miles both ways to attend that Track day.

Ted

 

[fergy]

Actually, I followed a Pro Miata around a set of corners at PIR. I just kept up to him. JonB, my instructor, mentioned that the Miata could actually go a little faster while I was limited by my PS2s. So yes, a Pro Miata could definitely leave you behind in the corners if he's slicked and you're only street tire equipped. My car's got a lot of mods.

Slicked, a street Viper can spank a Pro Miata so don't worry about it too much, you could always put slicks on your Viper and do the "spankin'".

Ted

Well, prior to my wing/splitter, the best time I got at MSR was a 1:22.9. I mostly ran in the 1:23s and 1:24s. These times were with all my mods, plus slicks, but without the wing and splitter. Keith's Miata would routinely run in the 1:21s and 1:22s. Now, with my wing/splitter, I can do quite well againts a Miata. Keith is a great driver and better than me but I'm no slouch. Now with my wing/splitter, I shouldn't have too much trouble beating him. I've done a 1:21.2 with my wing/splitter and that was with a set of old slicks (scrubs) and I wasn't going at it 100%. I think with new tires and a little more agressive driving I can get to 1:19s and maybe 1:18s. Unless you're a great driver, having a stock Viper and slicks, you won't beat Keith in his Miata and I kind of doubt it even if you were a great driver. His Miata may not be as fast in the straights, but he can make those turns without hardly slowing down which makes up for all that HP.

 

[Malu59RT]

Well, prior to my wing/splitter, the best time I got at MSR was a 1:22.9. I mostly ran in the 1:23s and 1:24s. These times were with all my mods, plus slicks, but without the wing and splitter. Keith's Miata would routinely run in the 1:21s and 1:22s. Now, with my wing/splitter, I can do quite well againts a Miata. Keith is a great driver and better than me but I'm no slouch. Now with my wing/splitter, I shouldn't have too much trouble beating him. I've done a 1:21.2 with my wing/splitter and that was with a set of old slicks (scrubs) and I wasn't going at it 100%. I think with new tires and a little more agressive driving I can get to 1:19s and maybe 1:18s. Unless you're a great driver, having a stock Viper and slicks, you won't beat Keith in his Miata and I kind of doubt it even if you were a great driver. His Miata may not be as fast in the straights, but he can make those turns without hardly slowing down which makes up for all that HP.

Fergy, you would also have to factor in the kind of track you were racing on. A smaller track would be better for a Miata, but at say ECR, do you think with all those long straights, that Keith's Miata would pull better times than you?

Jason

 

[fergy]

Fergy, you would also have to factor in the kind of track you were racing on. A smaller track would be better for a Miata, but at say ECR, do you think with all those long straights, that Keith's Miata would pull better times than you?

Jason

You are correct. I was trying to be somewhat general when comparing a Miata to a stock Viper on a road course. A comment like "a miata is not going to pass even a stock viper on any course" just is an incorrect statement so I was adressing that for the most part. A miata vs a stock viper would lose at ECR unless the viper has a really bad driver. The tracks as well as the drivers do matter. ECR is not much more than dragstrips followed by u-turns and a Viper has a distinct advantage there. Stock Vipers do not like to turn because of their weight and suspension so the more straights the better. I'm not sure how well the Miata would do at ECR. All 5 straights are uphill and long. High average speed tracks would favor a Viper and lower average speed tracks would favor a car that handles the turns well like Porsches. For example, my wing/splitter won't do me much good at ECR and I'm considering removing them for Viper Days because of the drag they cause. I'm going to experiement both ways to compare my times. Only one of the turns is over 70 MPH or so. The rest are under that and the aero won't help a lot but the aero will hurt in the straights. Now, you add suspension, differential, and aero to a Viper, it becomes very formidable especially on tracks where there are 70+ MPH turns.

 

[Viper X]

Interesting discussion.

I have tracked my GTS pretty regularly the last 2.5 years like you, Fergy.

I chose to go with a new ACR and now have one on order.

..... and I just added an Autoform rear wing and a larger comp coupe style splitter to my GTS.

I'm still working on my lap times, but I can assure some of the guys here that Miatas and Hondas can and do pass most Vipers on tight tracks, especially when the Viper drivers are relatively inexperienced and the smaller car drivers are experienced.

I was at Buttonwillow last weekend driving with the NASA National Honda Challenge (H2 I think) Winner Manny Coats who also races his GTS. He is an excellent driver. His Honda has about 135 HP and weighs about 2000 lbs. I had to press on it pretty good to stay even and then slightly ahead of him. We had a blast chasing each other around the track.

It's a little different story at Willow Springs, where the Viper over powers most of it's competition.

I have found that the benefits of Aero are fairly limited and it takes some time to safely approach the new limits. The car just feels more stable at almost every point on the track. The Aero does help a bunch with braking (more than I ever thought) and of course with high speed turns.

I do have one question. I agree with your assessment that suspension helps a bunch with road courses but I also think that sticky tires and a proper alignment make more difference than any other change you could make, including Aero. Do you agree or do you think Aero helps on track performance more than sticky tires?

Fun discussion - thanks for starting it.

Dan

 

[wallbanger]

what are the 08s running at MSR?

 

[Matt]

fergy,

What tires are you running when you are driving your car to and from an event?

 

[fergy]

Interesting discussion.

I have tracked my GTS pretty regularly the last 2.5 years like you, Fergy.

I chose to go with a new ACR and now have one on order.

..... and I just added an Autoform rear wing and a larger comp coupe style splitter to my GTS.

I'm still working on my lap times, but I can assure some of the guys here that Miatas and Hondas can and do pass most Vipers on tight tracks, especially when the Viper drivers are relatively inexperienced and the smaller car drivers are experienced.

I was at Buttonwillow last weekend driving with the NASA National Honda Challenge (H2 I think) Winner Manny Coats who also races his GTS. He is an excellent driver. His Honda has about 135 HP and weighs about 2000 lbs. I had to press on it pretty good to stay even and then slightly ahead of him. We had a blast chasing each other around the track.

It's a little different story at Willow Springs, where the Viper over powers most of it's competition.

I have found that the benefits of Aero are fairly limited and it takes some time to safely approach the new limits. The car just feels more stable at almost every point on the track. The Aero does help a bunch with braking (more than I ever thought) and of course with high speed turns.

I do have one question. I agree with your assessment that suspension helps a bunch with road courses but I also think that sticky tires and a proper alignment make more difference than any other change you could make, including Aero. Do you agree or do you think Aero helps on track performance more than sticky tires?

Fun discussion - thanks for starting it.

Dan

Well, I have a different take. I started out pure stock and then got the comp coupe oil pan (needed in case you don't want to blow the motor), Forgeline wheels with slicks, and a Quaife differential. These things help substatially. I then added Motons with Eibach springs a while later. That helped a lot too. However, the Comp Coupe wing and splitter have done more as a single purchase than anything else by far. After testing on the track, I was giggling like a school girl when my times dropped dramatically. After TWS this last weekend I feel the car is not only more stable but has such drastic improvement in handling that I've yet to find the edge and I feel much more confident about the handling of the car than I had ever hoped to feel. Sticky tires and good suspension are definitley needed and maybe the wing/splitter wouldn't have helped as much without these things, but when the wing/splitter was added, it made the whole car work much better as a unit than anything else I could have added. I don't know how the autoform rear wing performs and maybe that's the reason you didn't get the results you expected? I'm not sure. The Comp Coupe wing and splitter are very effective.

 

[fergy]

what are the 08s running at MSR?

I'm not sure. The extra HP they have isn't enough to make a significant difference. They need suspension, differential, and aero to fully exploit the car's potential. There are few 08s and ACRs on the track right now that I've seen.

 

[fergy]

fergy,

What tires are you running when you are driving your car to and from an event?

I've got Pilot Sport Cups on there now which are the same tires that come stock on the ACR. These tires are great for street and pretty decent on the track when compared to other street tires. Still, a set of slicks is much better.

 

[Viper X]

Fegry,

You may be right about the Autoform wing (Le Mans Style on their website) and splitter, though they have been well tested by other GTS drivers in the last 10 years or so on tracks around the country, I doubt that they were tested on a GTS in a wind tunnel like the new ACR wing and splitter combo was tested on the Gen III body.

Also, I doubt that the Comp coupe wing and splitter as installed on a stock Viper body (different than a comp coupe) has been wind tunnel tested, yet seems to work well on your car.

Do you have a GPS based lap timer in your car? If so, it would be fun to see what type of G Forces you can pull through specific high speed turns with and without the wing / splitter combo.

I'm still working on this with my GTS (until my ARC comes in) but have found I can pull 1.5 Gs safely through some turns at Buttonwillow with Toyo R888s which are 100 tread wear rated tires like PS Cups. I was pulling 1.3 Gs prior to the Aero package, so their is some measurable improvement so far and the car just feels more stable.

Haven't tried slicks yet with the Aero but will in a couple of weeks at Willow Springs.

Fun stuff,

Dan

 

[Boxer12]

It's not about looks for me. It's about performance. The ACR splitter isn't quite as effective as the comp coupe splitter and the CC wing is about 10" wider. I've seen a number of ACRs up close and can assure you the CC splitter looks fine in comparison and performs better. If I were a car polisher and not tracking my car, I might disagree with my statement. But, since I prefer function over form when on the track, I prefer the CC splitter. I guess it all depends on what you're trying to accomplish.

So, you really think that you can tell the diff between an ACR splitter and a CC splitter? LOL. I don't think so. You gained a total of approx 1.7 sec on your home course with that entire package. And someone isn't a 'polisher' just bc they would consider putting an ACR splitter on their car with a CC wing...me thinks you got a big head from your one little trophy.

 

[Viper X]

Boxer12,

The comp coup splitter is quite a bit larger (more surface area, sticks out farther) than the ACR splitter, so I'd guess they produce different amounts of down force with the nod going to the cc splitter.

I have done some experimentation with splitters and my current splitter is very similar to the GTSR / CC splitter. I can feel more DF with it that I could with the smaller, shorter splitter that I had on the car preivously.

One thing to note though is that my GTS with the current CC style splitter would be fairly difficult to drive on the street. I really like the design of the ACR splitter with it's removable center section. If I were buying a splitter for a dual purpose car, it would be the ACR splitter.

Dan

 

[Boxer12]

You could always add the winglets to go along with it. That would probably close the gap pretty well. Besides, they look cool (form follows function).

 

[fergy]

Do you have a GPS based lap timer in your car? If so, it would be fun to see what type of G Forces you can pull through specific high speed turns with and without the wing / splitter combo.

I have a PerformanceBox in the car. I just got through taking a look at the G's. I've not looked at that before. The highest lateral G was 1.64 at TWS last weekend. Some of the turns are in the 1.5s and 1.6s pretty consistently. I can send you a private mail if you like with my lap data. I have it in PerformanceBox format as DBN files if you can read that. If so, let me know.

 

[fergy]

So, you really think that you can tell the diff between an ACR splitter and a CC splitter? LOL. I don't think so. You gained a total of approx 1.7 sec on your home course with that entire package. And someone isn't a 'polisher' just bc they would consider putting an ACR splitter on their car with a CC wing...me thinks you got a big head from your one little trophy.

Hmm... Ok.

 

[fergy]

Boxer12,

The comp coup splitter is quite a bit larger (more surface area, sticks out farther) than the ACR splitter, so I'd guess they produce different amounts of down force with the nod going to the cc splitter.

I have done some experimentation with splitters and my current splitter is very similar to the GTSR / CC splitter. I can feel more DF with it that I could with the smaller, shorter splitter that I had on the car preivously.

One thing to note though is that my GTS with the current CC style splitter would be fairly difficult to drive on the street. I really like the design of the ACR splitter with it's removable center section. If I were buying a splitter for a dual purpose car, it would be the ACR splitter.

Dan

The CC splitter is wider and sticks out farther by about 2" or so from the front of the car. My understanding is that causes more downforce. Also, the CC wing is 8"-10" wider. That would seem to me to catch more air and cause more downforce. Anyway, these are my assumptions based on my limited understanding. Without a wind tunnel test, there's no way to know for sure.

I can definitely feel the difference just driving down the highway. On the track, I can tell in the times and how much faster I'm going around the turns. The car brakes faster from high speeds too.

My car is my daily driver. I don't have any problems with the splitter. It doesn't mean I'm not careful when going on rough roads or watch out for speed bumps, but I did that before I had the splitter. So far, there isn't anywhere I drove before that I can drive now.

 

[YellowViperSRT10]

hey Fergy, check your PM

 

[fergy]

I have a PerformanceBox in the car. I just got through taking a look at the G's. I've not looked at that before. The highest lateral G was 1.64 at TWS last weekend. Some of the turns are in the 1.5s and 1.6s pretty consistently. I can send you a private mail if you like with my lap data. I have it in PerformanceBox format as DBN files if you can read that. If so, let me know.

Dan,

I looked through my other PerformanceBox data files and saw a max G force of 1.794. Since we ran Texas World Speedway in the counter clockwise direction, the highest Gs are left turns. Anyway, I thought you may be interested. I'm not sure if 1.794 Gs is good or not. I know I could have gone faster but my balls weren't big enough and there are a number of places at TWS where running off would be a bad idea.

 

[Viper X]

Fergy,

PM me at [email protected]. Send the dbn files when you get a chance. I don't know TWS but it would be fun to see your speeds and G Forces.

I have P box and GX2 Lap timers and software, so I can read your DBN files. I started with a P Box and found the GX2 to be easier to read at speed, more user friendly with a better software / analysis package.

So far, I've only been able to sustain 1.5 ish G's in my GTS on a road course (no real banking to the turns) but as you state, cajones can get in the way.

Also, I'd guess that TWS has some banked sections like our CA Speedway, so that would allow you to safely pull more G's. I'll be driving CA Speedway in about a month so it should be interesting to see the G forces developed on the banked oval section of the track.

Dan

 

[fergy]

Fergy,

PM me at [email protected]. Send the dbn files when you get a chance. I don't know TWS but it would be fun to see your speeds and G Forces.

I have P box and GX2 Lap timers and software, so I can read your DBN files. I started with a P Box and found the GX2 to be easier to read at speed, more user friendly with a better software / analysis package.

So far, I've only been able to sustain 1.5 ish G's in my GTS on a road course (no real banking to the turns) but as you state, cajones can get in the way.

Also, I'd guess that TWS has some banked sections like our CA Speedway, so that would allow you to safely pull more G's. I'll be driving CA Speedway in about a month so it should be interesting to see the G forces developed on the banked oval section of the track.

Dan

I sent you a PM just now with the Pbox files, circuit file, and a KML for Google Earth. My Pbox fits in the shield right in front of me so I can easily see it and press buttons on it if needed. I like the split times because it gives me an idea if my current lap is faster or slower than my other laps and motivates me to go faster. I noticed on one of my other laps I hit 1.9Gs in a turn. The banked turn of the speedway is really just one straight and then the road course takes over from there. It's a 2.9 mile road course with only a portion of the speedway.

 

[Grant]

Be sure to turn on smoothing for lateral and longitudinal acceleration when looking at PBox data. To do this, right click on the graph, click "Channel scaling and axis setup", then put a "1" in the smoothing column of the variable you want to smooth. Make sure they are checked visible and click apply.

Since its GPS-based, unsmoothed acceleration data isn't going to appear as wacky as accelerometer-based systems will, but its still taking the second derivative of position to get that number. I wouldn't trust the peaks or valleys that are reported.

That said, can you forward that data to me fergy? My email is [email protected]. I'd love to look at it. I'm going to track my stock ACR for the first time this weekend, at Roebling Road. What tires are you on?

The great thing about the ACR splitting is how durable it is. I've never seen a CC splitter, but most of the ACR's is a thick, black plastic which can rub like crazy without damaging the load-bearing (and expensive) carbon fiber. It simply bolts up to the carbon fiber, so swapping it out is easy. Even if Mopar charges an arm and a leg for replacement plastic (and I'm sure they do), it would be simple to just have replacements cut out of plastic sheet at very little cost. I'm actually toying with the idea of having some made in varying lengths, so I can bolt on longer front splitters for more front downforce.

 

[fergy]

Be sure to turn on smoothing for lateral and longitudinal acceleration when looking at PBox data. To do this, right click on the graph, click "Channel scaling and axis setup", then put a "1" in the smoothing column of the variable you want to smooth. Make sure they are checked visible and click apply.

Since its GPS-based, unsmoothed acceleration data isn't going to appear as wacky as accelerometer-based systems will, but its still taking the second derivative of position to get that number. I wouldn't trust the peaks or valleys that are reported.

That said, can you forward that data to me fergy? My email is [email protected]. I'd love to look at it. I'm going to track my stock ACR for the first time this weekend, at Roebling Road. What tires are you on?

The great thing about the ACR splitting is how durable it is. I've never seen a CC splitter, but most of the ACR's is a thick, black plastic which can rub like crazy without damaging the load-bearing (and expensive) carbon fiber. It simply bolts up to the carbon fiber, so swapping it out is easy. Even if Mopar charges an arm and a leg for replacement plastic (and I'm sure they do), it would be simple to just have replacements cut out of plastic sheet at very little cost. I'm actually toying with the idea of having some made in varying lengths, so I can bolt on longer front splitters for more front downforce.

Thanks for the info. I've turned on smoothing although I didn't see a lot of difference but I'm sure there must be. I'll send you a PM with the same data I sent Dan.

I was runing Hoosier R6 315s up front and 345s back.

I would imagine that the ACR splitter is tougher because it's made for a street car with the expectation that it's going to be bumped and rubbed on curbs, speed bumps, etc. I'm sure Dodge didn't want to have to continue to replace them any more often than necessary. The CC one is all carbon fiber. It seems pretty strong but still probably not as strong as the ACR. Still, a good hard impact be it on the street or track will take a chunk out of either one, I'm sure. I think the CC splitter is $3K just for the part so I don't want to be careless with it.