dave6666
Enthusiast
I thought one of the problems with the Viper crank was they were kinda soft compared to some. Which is good for drilling.
Would you cut your losses or fix the car?
- Thread starter terminator02
- Start date
The Time-Sert seems like a great choice. I wonder how it would do in a crank application where constant torsional forces are at play. A quick call to their engineering dept would probably answer that question. I'd personally key the crank at that point. I'm guessing that when the dampner came loose the first time it was not replaced with a new unit. I'm also guessing that some thread damage had already occured.
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I think machining a fixture that would almost be an interference fit over the snout of the crank would be necessary for drilling the crank perfectly square. Having a second fixture to keep the tap absolutely square would also be in order. If the end of the crank is damaged , well that is another issue. Either way it's not a job for most do-it yourself guys. As evidenced by this thread.
If you need your engine rebuilt, custom built, or just repaired- we can do it for you without a problem and add it to the group of other Viper engines that are in process at the moment.
Viper engines account for 90% of what we do [engine wise]. We are not the cheapest by any stretch, but we build what will work best for you, not what we can package and sell at bottom dollar.
A few examples of what we do can be seen here: http://viperspecialtyperformance.com/Gallery.asp
Personally, I would not repair with a timesert. The bolt diameter in relation to the snout diameter is just too close. If you were to use a timesert and then key the crank, you would be very close to breaking through. Even with a timesert, keying is needed- you can still unscrew the bolt in the same fashion as it is not a lefthand thread. Also, the timesert does not take care of the damaged crank snout OD, which surely occurred after the first failure, as you has a recurrence. A recurring failure is a dead giveaway to snout damage which caused the press-fit to loosen.
Viper engines account for 90% of what we do [engine wise]. We are not the cheapest by any stretch, but we build what will work best for you, not what we can package and sell at bottom dollar.
A few examples of what we do can be seen here: http://viperspecialtyperformance.com/Gallery.asp
Personally, I would not repair with a timesert. The bolt diameter in relation to the snout diameter is just too close. If you were to use a timesert and then key the crank, you would be very close to breaking through. Even with a timesert, keying is needed- you can still unscrew the bolt in the same fashion as it is not a lefthand thread. Also, the timesert does not take care of the damaged crank snout OD, which surely occurred after the first failure, as you has a recurrence. A recurring failure is a dead giveaway to snout damage which caused the press-fit to loosen.
So I guess I have 2 questions for you.
1) What would be the cheapest way (not asking price) that you (your company) can do to fix it? And what would it entail for work (IE pulling motor and replacing just crank, perform some kind of work with motor in the car etc…)
2) What would you do to prevent this from ever happening in the first place and what does that entail for work?
Thanks
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No, I can't believe some Dunder head did not think of this in the design stage with the amount of power this car makes, especially after searching to find out older cars with less power have keyways on the balancer.
Designer probably related to ^^^^^
No, I can't believe some Dunder head did not think of this in the design stage with the amount of power this car makes, especially after searching to find out older cars with less power have keyways on the balancer.
Designer probably related to ^^^^^
I agree but the reason why the older cars have keyed balancers is because the ignition timing is based off the balancer and the balancer has to go on an exact spot on the crank to denote TDC for #1 cylinder.
BUT with that said, these cranks should still be keyed…
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eucharistos
Enthusiast
good thread and posts except for tommyfox
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dave6666
Enthusiast
They pinned mine when the blower was installed. All good.
eucharistos
Enthusiast
eucharistos
Enthusiast
p.s. - nice use of lowercase 
the detailed mind of an engineer 
the detailed mind of an engineer
1. Without seeing the damage, there is no way I would be able to accurately quote. Given the year and mileage, I would suggest at minimum a basic overhaul and a new crank. This would be an inspection, rings, bearings, gaskets, crankshaft. Nothing extreme. I would estimate starting cost in the $5000-6000 range for a stock rebuild, assuming the engine showed up on a pallet or if we sent a crate for it, and we didn't find any other worn or damaged items in the process. We are not currently taking in any cars right now- too much back work to finish. Engines only as they take up less space and resources. I realize that you received a quote elsewhere for 6K, albeit with "custom parts" and that is certainly an option to you. The internals we use couldn't even be supplied in a box for that price, let alone assembled in an engine- I am not sure I want to know what internals will find their way into a $6K Viper engine overhaul that also needs to include a crankshaft.
2. The engine would have the front snout press fit checked, and it would be keyed. I would advise an ATI damper as well, keyed to match the crank. All of our Gen-2 engines also include our AFM gaskets, preventing leaks and blow-outs, as well as our Lifter Provision head gaskets allowing cam replacement and/or lifter replacement with the heads still in place.
How in the world are people new to this supposed to get informed. Nice edit. Are you Dave? Something fishy going on here between you two.
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eucharistos
Enthusiast
hi syb
my original post was: "good thread and posts"
then all of a sudden dave worked some dave magic and now i'm in the middle of this
Thanks for the response.
If you haven’t had this problem yet, what are your thoughts on pinning? Is this a "cure-all"?
In my opinion, pinning is only an option when you have an undamaged crank snout and damper, or when you have little to no damage on the snout, and a replacement damper. If the press fit is loose, you have a problem with concentrically/wobble, as well as additional stress on the pins. Pinning is nowhere near as sturdy as keying.
You also have damaged threads- this in and of itself will require crankshaft removal for diagnosis and repair or replacement. For any crank out of an engine, Keying is a no-brainer over pinning. Pinning is a stop-gap measure for engines which are not being removed and disassembled in smaller builds.
Just to clarify, I have no issues with my car, I am asking on the behalf of others!
Whoops-
My mistake! I didnt jump back to page one, I assumed you were the OP given the questions you asked- the answers I gave were directed towards his situation, but they still apply in any case.
My mistake! I didnt jump back to page one, I assumed you were the OP given the questions you asked- the answers I gave were directed towards his situation, but they still apply in any case.
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Understood. I am trying to educate myself on the before and after options. I am sure others have / had the same questions and this would make a good search thread if others have questions OR are in the same situation as the OP.
Thanks for taking the time!!!
Oh please, stop talking to yourself for it makes you look like a loon!hi syb
my original post was: "good thread and posts"
then all of a sudden dave worked some dave magic and now i'm in the middle of this
terminator02
Viper Owner
I guess I am going to look for the most cost effective as I have already put a decent amount of money into the car (auto lavish 10 hours of paint restoration, new clutch, master slave, etc,) and then this occurred. Kinda sad that I have had so many issues with the car but that has been a learning experience for me. Unfortunately I don't know my way with a wrench well but have had good connections (in Canada with my ex). Maybe there is a knowledgable metro detroit VCA member who has the garage space and wouldn't mind me transporting the car there to take a look at it sometime. I just don't want to send it somewhere and be asked to invest way more than what might be a feasible solution. I really appreciate all of the good feedback. This isn't an easy decision.
GTS Dean
Enthusiast
The beauty of the Timesert is just how little parent material is removed to make way for the insert itself. The insert threads install "in time" with the threads cut with the new tap. If the repair is being done to a naturally aspirated engine with little or no snout damage, I don't see how you could go wrong with this approach.
Now if you're talking boosted application - then I would tend to agree with your recommendation to key the crank because that's where the power comes from. Or, replace and key the crank if the snout is seriously damaged. Do you use a square key or a Woodruff key?
I agree with Dean, I would try the Timesert with a new balancer and then pin it. What do you have to lose??? If you have problems again, then you can go the crank route and by that time, maybe your financial situation will be more favorable.
You have nothing to lose!
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There has got to be someone else that fixed this problem . I will ask around on some other sites. But I would by a FSM and tear it apart and fix before I would give it away for cheap.
I feel really bad for you.
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I must disagree with both of you. I understand how a timesert works- but that doesnt change the fact that even a stock crank snout with the larger bolt and keys is getting fairly thin. While I have never seen any problem with 3/16" keys, I have indeed seen a 1/4" keyed Viper crank snout crack in the keyway. That is only a tad deeper than a 3/16. I am not saying there weren't contributing factors like a poor press fit, or who-knows-how-tight of a torquing, but nonetheless it shows its not impossible.
I also must disagree about nothing to lose. A Timesert or any thread repair cannot be installed with the engine in the car, or the crank in the engine for that matter. You have an entire engine rebuild worth of labor to lose- that's more than the crank is worth!
Can you elaborate on why you can’t install the Timesert in the car given enough room to gain access in the front?
I also would make a jig that attaches to the balancer with a hole in the center so the drill bit goes in square.
I could be missing something though..
First and foremost, I would not trust the concentricity of some kind of a jig arrangement, especially on a snout that is known to be damaged internally and externally- the same goes for the drilling angle.
Second, I dont see any possible way there would be enough room for a drill of that size, a jig, and a bit without taking apart half of the front of the car. Its not so much "if" it can be done, but "should" it, or would you want to anyway. Just because something requires fewer parts to be removed, does not mean that its actually faster, easier, or safer.... or the proper way.
I am in no way saying it cannot be done, or it wont work. I am just saying it is not how we would do it, and I personally would not put my name on the repair if it is as bad as I am assuming.
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Fair enough....
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eucharistos
Enthusiast
dave6666
Enthusiast
^^^^^ This
