Wrecked friday night

cash84

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For the minority of Viper owners who feel they need nannies, but moan about the lack of them...learn your car.

My last Viper was, according to commonly held beliefs, trouble waiting to happen. S/C, gen 3, on runflats. Never had a problem as I ALWAYS was aware of the potential and drove accordingly. Never on the cell, or drinking anything(no cupholders:2tu:) while in motion. And I loved to drive that car the way it's built to driven...with respect.

Sorry for the rant:)

+2 These can be driven like any other cars if you drive like a NORMAL driver.
 

Twister

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For the minority of Viper owners who feel they need nannies, but moan about the lack of them...learn your car.

My last Viper was, according to commonly held beliefs, trouble waiting to happen. S/C, gen 3, on runflats. Never had a problem as I ALWAYS was aware of the potential and drove accordingly. Never on the cell, or drinking anything(no cupholders:2tu:) while in motion. And I loved to drive that car the way it's built to driven...with respect.

Sorry for the rant:)

yea you hit it on the head....i hadnt driven a viper in a year and a half before I bought another gen3 a few weeks ago...

I remembered very quickly that you HAVE to drive these cars with two hands and pay attention..The wide front tires will follow ruts to know avail...Just drinking a soda is a skill that has to be built up....

My 04 vette I could drive every where with two fingers..Literally..Vipers are drivers cars..I wish their was a way to show this too people who are wondering why vipers have such snake bite...But no amount of magazine acelleration testing or handling can tell them the raw feeling:dunno:...
 

Cop Magnet

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Groan...here we go again. The nannies would help sales as more people could comfortably drive the car. Since you could turn it off, no loss to you. And while on, may have saved this guys a$$.

The last time we had this argument, ad nauseum, the final argument was that it would cost too much and the ********* drivers did not want to pay for any more electronics.

I find it ironic that a number of people who've posted about learning to drive the car, have learned that lesson through a wreck (sometimes more than one). The majority of drivers do not find that lesson acceptable, as a wreck can mean serious injury, loss of life, or liability that can be life-altering.

So if the average Viper driver has paid for a fraction more than one car (factoring the unknown number of wrecks as part of your "lesson"), would you really have paid more to have traction control?

"What about all the wrecked Ferrari's!? They have TC!" I don't know! What about all the wrecked Camry's? They have no HP!!! So how did that happen? You can't talk statistics by giving examples without actual data.
 

Janni

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For ESC to work - he would have have had to have been IN the car.

As someone else noted - there is likely much more to this story.

Perhaps instead of TC - maybe a "valet button" so you CAN let your friends drive the car and they can look cool for their girlfriends with 300 HP?
 

pteam

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So is the owner who lent the car out responsible in any way? What if the driver died, if they sued the owner for lending him the car? Just curious.
 
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AviP

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Damn, that looks bad. For a second, I thought that paper bag in the first shot was his noggin! I'm glad he's still alive since the driver section looks like a disaster. I don't recall seeing a Viper looking this bad in the passenger or driver section.

And for those who haven't learnt yet, please do no loan out your Viper to ANYBODY. Tell them it's not because you are a snob, it's because you love them.
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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Groan...here we go again. The nannies would help sales as more people could comfortably drive the car.

The nannies will hurt sales as the reputation of the Viper being a badass driver purist's car will deteriorate and it will be left to compete directly with the Vette and all the other nanny cars. And it will lose in a direct competition for those sales.

The only thing that might save the Viper from extinction brought on by the onslaught of sissies wanting their nannies is a heavily sponsored series like the Dodge Viper Cup.
 

Cop Magnet

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The nannies will hurt sales as the reputation of the Viper being a badass driver purist's car will deteriorate and it will be left to compete directly with the Vette and all the other nanny cars. And it will lose in a direct competition for those sales.

Are you saying the Corvette is a better car than the Viper? Because it outsells us 10-1 despite al the droves who flock here because it is a "purists" car. Your comment makes no sense.

The only thing that might save the Viper from extinction brought on by the onslaught of sissies wanting their nannies is a heavily sponsored series like the Dodge Viper Cup.

I am all for the new series! Hopefully this will bring us back to the limelight!

And it is not just "sissies" who are agreeable to TC. I drive a ******** ACR, and would have opted for the ACR-X if it were an option then. TC is not for me, but it would bring the Viper to more car enthusiasts, and I think that is worth the tradeoff. Maintaining a sense of exclusivity, and consequently LOW production numbers, may make you feel like you are DA MAN. But it will not keep the Viper alive for long.
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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Maintaining a sense of exclusivity, and consequently LOW production numbers, may make you feel like you are DA MAN. But it will not keep the Viper alive for long.

Please don't think I give a damn about exclusitivity, that label is more appropriate for the nanny crowd than it is for the purists. I couldn't care less if there were a million Vipers sold every year. What I care about is driving a true sports car. And a true sports car is a car that requires practice and talent and not a bunch of nannies. What is it really that makes who feel like DA MAN?
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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Are you saying the Corvette is a better car than the Viper? Because it outsells us 10-1 despite al the droves who flock here because it is a "purists" car. Your comment makes no sense.

I'm saying the masses will opt for the more affordable car, which will always be the Vette. The Viper crowd is not the Corvette crowd and turning the Viper into a Corvette will be the Viper's demise.
 

okloneranger

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I never asked anyone if I could drive their car, and none of my friends have asked to drive my Viper. The only other person who has driven it is my son. This was just before his deployment to Afganistan. I did educate him about Vipers torque, tires (hot vs. cold), foot pedals (how easy it is to accidentally depress the wrong one), and everything else I could think of. He also saw plenty of posts from this website and was quite aware of both good and bad experiences and comments from many expert and well practiced owners and drivers. Then I rode with him. He understood my concern and there was no problem.
 

RTTTTed

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Are you saying the Corvette is a better car than the Viper? Because it outsells us 10-1 despite al the droves who flock here because it is a "purists" car. Your comment makes no sense.



I am all for the new series! Hopefully this will bring us back to the limelight!

And it is not just "sissies" who are agreeable to TC. I drive a ******** ACR, and would have opted for the ACR-X if it were an option then. TC is not for me, but it would bring the Viper to more car enthusiasts, and I think that is worth the tradeoff. Maintaining a sense of exclusivity, and consequently LOW production numbers, may make you feel like you are DA MAN. But it will not keep the Viper alive for long.

Corvette a better car? You mean the 400hp one? The one with skinny tires and TC? Automatic one you mean?

Some people will consider a vette better because it's so cheap (not the expensive one). Others have issues and NEED an automatic so that cheapo 'sports car' can kick Miatas so it's better. To each his own.

I think that GM loses money selling the premium vettes. I think that their warranties are an issue. I think that GM recall history shows that Toyota makes a better car than GM and Ford. Dodge makes better than all of the previously mentioned AND Honda.

I think that the ZR1 costs more to build than what it sells for with all the junk on it. As much as I would LOVE a set of
Ceramic brakes ... I prefer the ACRs brakes until someone sells us a set of 114-15" ceramic brakes for under $5,000 and not $5,000 per rotor thank you. I would like the 1 or 2' shorter stopping distance, but not at the current price.

Although the vette has "headsup" display ceramic rotors, special computer braking (TC), super magnetic shocks/susp., special plastic heat conducting plastic hood, etc. I wouldn't/didn't buy it even at a cheaper price than my Viper.

Everyone knows that aftermarket TC fits into a Viper for only $10,000. Want it, buy it. The few guys that have had it installed in their cars like it. I don't need it so far.

I agree with Chuck

Ted
 

RTTTTed

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I admit that my 91 Stealth R/T TT does have digital climate control (read computerized heater/ac), computerized emergency electronic suspension (read computer controlled shocks/struts), computer controlled rear wheel steering, cruise control, etc.

I think that since my computerized stereo had to be replaced with Bluetooth and the $400 Pioneer has better sound, the factory stuff was wasted money. The electronic controlled suspension has been replaced on 2 of my 3 Stealth's with GAB racing shocks so obviously the fancy susp. wasn't very good. The Digital Climate Control does work well and I would actually like a thermostat in my Viper as being manually controlled it is often too hot or too cold. Then I could pay more attention to the Apex and traffic.
 

AbsolutHank

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Corvette a better car? You mean the 400hp one? The one with skinny tires and TC? Automatic one you mean?

Some people will consider a vette better because it's so cheap (not the expensive one). Others have issues and NEED an automatic so that cheapo 'sports car' can kick Miatas so it's better. To each his own.

I think that GM loses money selling the premium vettes. I think that their warranties are an issue. I think that GM recall history shows that Toyota makes a better car than GM and Ford. Dodge makes better than all of the previously mentioned AND Honda.

I think that the ZR1 costs more to build than what it sells for with all the junk on it. As much as I would LOVE a set of
Ceramic brakes ... I prefer the ACRs brakes until someone sells us a set of 114-15" ceramic brakes for under $5,000 and not $5,000 per rotor thank you. I would like the 1 or 2' shorter stopping distance, but not at the current price.

Although the vette has "headsup" display ceramic rotors, special computer braking (TC), super magnetic shocks/susp., special plastic heat conducting plastic hood, etc. I wouldn't/didn't buy it even at a cheaper price than my Viper.

Everyone knows that aftermarket TC fits into a Viper for only $10,000. Want it, buy it. The few guys that have had it installed in their cars like it. I don't need it so far.

I agree with Chuck

Ted

Ted, lets be honest here. The real appeal of the Corvette is how it does, and can, appeal to so many people for different reasons. It's no Viper for sure, but it does alot of things great.

The most important thing here is that here on this forum, we are all purists drivers who bought Vipers for that reason...its basically the last car that fills that void.

You can seriously stop bringing your 1991 Stealth into conversation. Its been sooo irrelavant for so many years, it makes that "***** 436hp, auto Vette" seem relevant to this convo:2tu:

Lastly, Dodge making a better car than Ford, GM, Toyota and Honda...seriously, you're bias is showing. The Viper, with its reliable, maintenance free record is the exception, not the rule.
 

RTTTTed

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My point exactly. If we're gonna talk about cars other than Vipers (like vettes) then we should be talking about 3L Stealth R/T TTs as those cars were built to compete with the vettes.

But at least they're a dodge.

Ted
 

1BADGTS

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e
Ted, lets be honest here. The real appeal of the Corvette is how it does, and can, appeal to so many people for different reasons. It's no Viper for sure, but it does alot of things great.

The most important thing here is that here on this forum, we are all purists drivers who bought Vipers for that reason...its basically the last car that fills that void.

You can seriously stop bringing your 1991 Stealth into conversation. Its been sooo irrelavant for so many years, it makes that "***** 436hp, auto Vette" seem relevant to this convo:2tu:

Lastly, Dodge making a better car than Ford, GM, Toyota and Honda...seriously, you're bias is showing. The Viper, with its reliable, maintenance free record is the exception, not the rule.
Exactly ,no car company EVER kills a model because it sells too much (the model continues,evolves )in the case of a STEALTH that model was killed 20 years ago The purists(MANY of them dont own or have never owned a Gen 4 ) have to accept the truth- unless Dodge LOWERS the price and does SOMETHING to appeal to a more mainstream market the Viper is gone anyway .When a car hits the 100k barrier that buyier is a different breed (ESP considering the competition ) No matter how well the car performs that buyier will not accept lack of electronic nannies .That buyier will not accept a CHEAP interior ect.
 

1BADGTS

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Ps What iam trying to say is IT ALL COMES DOWN TO MONEY .The Gen 1 and Gen sold well for Dodge (The cars had no competition and were priced in the 50s and 60s )Today there is competition out there that was not there in the 90s.On top of that the Vipers sticker has grown to 89-105 grand .A car company can get away with things at 65 K that it can not at 100k .
 

WILDASP

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eExactly ,no car company EVER kills a model because it sells too much (the model continues,evolves )in the case of a STEALTH that model was killed 20 years ago The purists(MANY of them dont own or have never owned a Gen 4 ) have to accept the truth- unless Dodge LOWERS the price and does SOMETHING to appeal to a more mainstream market the Viper is gone anyway .When a car hits the 100k barrier that buyier is a different breed (ESP considering the competition ) No matter how well the car performs that buyier will not accept lack of electronic nannies .That buyier will not accept a CHEAP interior ect.
Well, maybe......but then, the ZR-1 has the same cheap interior and the same lousy seats, and the same GM "quality fit and finish" (orange peel, anyone?) as the rest of the Vettes, a sticker well north of 100k, and it supposedly is selling. Get down to the regular base Vette, or even the Gran Sport, and you're comparing a mass-produced car with lesser performance to a hand-built Viper; of course it sells better, because it's a lot cheaper. The most direct comparison with the Vette (other than the ZR-1) would be some sort of "Viper Lite" (think Firepower), which to this point, never got built. I think the case can be made that the Viper was never meant to compete with the Vette at all, any more than the AC Cobra was; the Viper is and always has been a low-production, specialty sports car intended to appeal to those for whom the Vette was not enough, performance or driving experience wise. The Viper was never intended to be a mass-production, mass-appeal car. By contrast, the Z-06, and now the ZR-1 Vettes were GM attempts to produce a low-production car that matched the Viper. How successful that was, depends on which part of the automotive universe one is in. For the drag strip and the street "bragging rights" part of it, I'd call it a success; for the track, and everything else, I think not (if we're comparing 100k+ cars, that implies ZR-1 vs. ACR; otherwise, the better comparison is Gen IV base Viper to Z-06). With that said, I don't see Z-06 Vettes exactly flying off dealer lots where I am; in fact, they're being as heavily discounted as base Vipers, if not more so.

I know that for you and many others, drag racing is the end-all, be-all of motorsport, but there are those of us who feel otherwise, and for us, a 100k Viper is a far better bargain than comparable products from Porsche, Ferrari, Audi, Nissan, etc. The Viper has been, to use your words, "outside the mainstream" for eighteen years, during which a lot of people have predicted its imminent demise every year; in spite of that, there have been enough of us "few, crazy purists" to keep it alive and still kicking tail.

BTW, for all of those who keep doing these stock-for-stock drag racing comparisons, with the times both Vettes and Vipers are now running, aren't you required to have a roll cage in the car, or did I miss the memo on the 11.5 rule being tossed out the window? I mean, seeing that a cage is not so practical on the street, aren't we really talking "dedicated drag car" at that point (in which case, what's the point of nanny controls and a nicer interior?)? Or is this merely about "bragging rights", and dare I say it, street racing?

One last thing; no properly designed sports car needs nanny controls to be safely driven on the street in anything resembling a normal manner, by a COMPETENT driver (as opposed to a wannabe), and the wannabes don't belong in a Viper or anything like it to begin with; they can just as easily kill themselves in a Vette, (and a lot of other cars) nanny tech and all.
 

1BADGTS

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Well, maybe......but then, the ZR-1 has the same cheap interior and the same lousy seats, and the same GM "quality fit and finish" (orange peel, anyone?) as the rest of the Vettes, a sticker well north of 100k, and it supposedly is selling. Get down to the regular base Vette, or even the Gran Sport, and you're comparing a mass-produced car with lesser performance to a hand-built Viper; of course it sells better, because it's a lot cheaper. The most direct comparison with the Vette (other than the ZR-1) would be some sort of "Viper Lite" (think Firepower), which to this point, never got built. I think the case can be made that the Viper was never meant to compete with the Vette at all, any more than the AC Cobra was; the Viper is and always has been a low-production, specialty sports car intended to appeal to those for whom the Vette was not enough, performance or driving experience wise. The Viper was never intended to be a mass-production, mass-appeal car. By contrast, the Z-06, and now the ZR-1 Vettes were GM attempts to produce a low-production car that matched the Viper. How successful that was, depends on which part of the automotive universe one is in. For the drag strip and the street "bragging rights" part of it, I'd call it a success; for the track, and everything else, I think not (if we're comparing 100k+ cars, that implies ZR-1 vs. ACR; otherwise, the better comparison is Gen IV base Viper to Z-06). With that said, I don't see Z-06 Vettes exactly flying off dealer lots where I am; in fact, they're being as heavily discounted as base Vipers, if not more so.

I know that for you and many others, drag racing is the end-all, be-all of motorsport, but there are those of us who feel otherwise, and for us, a 100k Viper is a far better bargain than comparable products from Porsche, Ferrari, Audi, Nissan, etc. The Viper has been, to use your words, "outside the mainstream" for eighteen years, during which a lot of people have predicted its imminent demise every year; in spite of that, there have been enough of us "few, crazy purists" to keep it alive and still kicking tail.

BTW, for all of those who keep doing these stock-for-stock drag racing comparisons, with the times both Vettes and Vipers are now running, aren't you required to have a roll cage in the car, or did I miss the memo on the 11.5 rule being tossed out the window? I mean, seeing that a cage is not so practical on the street, aren't we really talking "dedicated drag car" at that point (in which case, what's the point of nanny controls and a nicer interior?)? Or is this merely about "bragging rights", and dare I say it, street racing?

One last thing; no properly designed sports car needs nanny controls to be safely driven on the street in anything resembling a normal manner, by a COMPETENT driver (as opposed to a wannabe), and the wannabes don't belong in a Viper or anything like it to begin with; they can just as easily kill themselves in a Vette, (and a lot of other cars) nanny tech and all.
In the end though its all about making money .The cost of the ZR-1 and Z06 is automized over the 40k Vetts they sell per year .Those Vetts sell because the NEEDS OF THE MANY OUTWEIGH THE NEEDS OF THE FEW.There are a ton of people on here making comments ,giving opinions ect BUT how many have gone down to their local Dodge dealer and plunked down 100k for a new Viper (MOST are driving 10 YEAR OLD PLUS Gen 2s because either they can not afford a 100k toy of they dont think its worth the money )The Viper in its current form is not selling (thats no mystery )in plain ENGLISH something needs to be done for it to survive .They can either lower the price point or make a 100k car that will appeal to the needs of the many in that pricepoint segment.
 

AbsolutHank

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I know this is really starting to get off topic, but why does the Viper have to cost so much? When you get right down to it, there isn't alot of high tech parts, except maybe the engine. Is it really only because they are such low production(Not alot of cars to spread R&D costs etc. over), and for the most part hand built?
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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Well, maybe......but then, the ZR-1 has the same cheap interior and the same lousy seats, and the same GM "quality fit and finish" (orange peel, anyone?) as the rest of the Vettes, a sticker well north of 100k, and it supposedly is selling. Get down to the regular base Vette, or even the Gran Sport, and you're comparing a mass-produced car with lesser performance to a hand-built Viper; of course it sells better, because it's a lot cheaper. The most direct comparison with the Vette (other than the ZR-1) would be some sort of "Viper Lite" (think Firepower), which to this point, never got built. I think the case can be made that the Viper was never meant to compete with the Vette at all, any more than the AC Cobra was; the Viper is and always has been a low-production, specialty sports car intended to appeal to those for whom the Vette was not enough, performance or driving experience wise. The Viper was never intended to be a mass-production, mass-appeal car. By contrast, the Z-06, and now the ZR-1 Vettes were GM attempts to produce a low-production car that matched the Viper. How successful that was, depends on which part of the automotive universe one is in. For the drag strip and the street "bragging rights" part of it, I'd call it a success; for the track, and everything else, I think not (if we're comparing 100k+ cars, that implies ZR-1 vs. ACR; otherwise, the better comparison is Gen IV base Viper to Z-06). With that said, I don't see Z-06 Vettes exactly flying off dealer lots where I am; in fact, they're being as heavily discounted as base Vipers, if not more so.

I know that for you and many others, drag racing is the end-all, be-all of motorsport, but there are those of us who feel otherwise, and for us, a 100k Viper is a far better bargain than comparable products from Porsche, Ferrari, Audi, Nissan, etc. The Viper has been, to use your words, "outside the mainstream" for eighteen years, during which a lot of people have predicted its imminent demise every year; in spite of that, there have been enough of us "few, crazy purists" to keep it alive and still kicking tail.

BTW, for all of those who keep doing these stock-for-stock drag racing comparisons, with the times both Vettes and Vipers are now running, aren't you required to have a roll cage in the car, or did I miss the memo on the 11.5 rule being tossed out the window? I mean, seeing that a cage is not so practical on the street, aren't we really talking "dedicated drag car" at that point (in which case, what's the point of nanny controls and a nicer interior?)? Or is this merely about "bragging rights", and dare I say it, street racing?

One last thing; no properly designed sports car needs nanny controls to be safely driven on the street in anything resembling a normal manner, by a COMPETENT driver (as opposed to a wannabe), and the wannabes don't belong in a Viper or anything like it to begin with; they can just as easily kill themselves in a Vette, (and a lot of other cars) nanny tech and all.

Slam dunk. :2tu:
 

1BADGTS

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PS EVERYBODY is forgetting the Viper in its GEN 1 and Gen 2 form WAS NOT A 100K CAR.When you talk 100k that buyer(NO MATTER WHAT SOME ON THIS FORUM CHOOSE TO BELIEVE ) puts other factors ABOVE ALL OUT TRACK PERFORMANCE .Those factors include ride,fit and features ,amenitys ,ect.That 100k buyer wants a car that has all the bells and whistles and he and his spouse can get in and drive 100 miles comfortably ect.A buddy of mine heavily involved in the NJ Ferarri club took my GEN 4 out one night .(Those Ferarri guys typically own 5-6 other cars.)His exact comment was it was thats the fastest piece of plastic i have ever driven.To him it was a lot of fun for 60 grand BUT not for 100 .For 100 they would rather have 95 % of the perf and much more amenitys ect.
 

1BADGTS

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I know this is really starting to get off topic, but why does the Viper have to cost so much? When you get right down to it, there isn't alot of high tech parts, except maybe the engine. Is it really only because they are such low production(Not alot of cars to spread R&D costs etc. over), and for the most part hand built?
Hank thats my whole point here.Last Jan when those employee cert came out they sold more GEN 4 than any month .The cars were priced in the 60s with it.For 60s history says they can sell them ,not a 100k though .Its a different world at that price point.
 

1BADGTS

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Iam going tpo make a prediction here either the GEN 5 will be extremely aggressive looking (more so than the GEN 4 )and priced lower OR remain at the same price point as the Gen 4 and have more Vette like qualitys.
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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1998 Viper listed for 74K. No small amount 12 years ago but the economy was good and loans were being made. Today the economy is the worst it has been in 30 years if not more and that is what is hurting Viper sales, not lack of nannies and seat warmers.

Loan me 110K like I could have gotten in 1998 and I'll jump in an ACR-X right now. And if you can deliver it without ABS and drive-by-wire I'll still take it. Does the ACR-X have TPS? If so, get rid of that crap too.
 

1BADGTS

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1998 Viper listed for 74K. No small amount 12 years ago but the economy was good and loans were being made. Today the economy is the worst it has been in 30 years if not more and that is what is hurting Viper sales, not lack of nannies and seat warmers.

Loan me 110K like I could have gotten in 1998 and I'll jump in an ACR-X right now. And if you can deliver it without ABS and drive-by-wire I'll still take it. Does the ACR-X have TPS? If so, get rid of that crap too.
I paid 55 for my GEN 1 new and 62(GREAT BUHLER DEAL )for my Gen 2 new in 96..If you look back at the GEN 4 SALES HISTORY do you think its shear coinsidence that they just happened to sell the most of them last Jan when that 30g employee cert was available.
 

1BADGTS

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If the GEN 4 was priced at 65 grand EVEN IN THIS ECONOMY they would sell them.
 

RTTTTed

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1BADGT you should go live on the vette boards.

You're forgetting that nothing you say ever gets supported by you pics or any common sense. You're too busy making up your 'facts'.

You say I' have no expericence and am geographically limited and have no track experience? I've won National Events. I've raced at ever racetrack (except 2) in 2 provinces and 3 states, plus Milan. I've drag raced and road coursed. Since I've been cross-continent and flown around the world your stating that I'm ignorant and know nothing because I live in rural BC is another LIE you just made up. Makes me wonder if you've ever been out of state? Not that I'm implying that you're ignorant because you've never been anywhere as you tried to state is my problem - your problem is that if you know much we can't tell because you such a liar - I know about everything you said about me is a lie. I know that you haven't stated any issues, volumes and specific stories/articles that you supposedly helped. I've never seen any of your several vipers. I have been assured by a police member that the DMV had no Viper registered in your name.

Ted
 

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