You're killing the planet...

[DLTARNU]

I'm not willing to say global warming is fake...

It's pretty much unanimously agreed that global warming is occurring. The great debate is over whether or not industry and automobiles are the cause, or if it's just a natural warming cycle that has occurred several times in Earth's history.

I'm inclined to believe that human activity is influencing the warming trend, however, I don't like the 'solution' that keeps trying to be shoved down our throat, because it simply won't work.

Let's say they get every single person in the developed world to cut their carbon footprint by 50%, which is an ENORMOUS amount. Yay. Go humans.

Now factor in the population of up and coming industrial societies (China, India, Indonesia, Brazil, etc.) and the exponential birthrate of the world at large, and even 50% nets us less than zero in overall impact.

The root problem is that there are simply too many people. While I do agree with efficiency in general, even strictly adhered to lifestyles when all else is factored in will fall well short of anything resembling even a tiny dent in the problem.

Personally, I believe we'll start seeing 'Resource Wars' by 2020. And I don't mean veiled 'Oil Wars', I mean things like outright 'Water Wars' and 'Land Wars'; people fighting for their very survival, not just for cheap gas.

It's going to get very, very ugly.

 

[albinonile]

Personally, I believe we'll start seeing 'Resource Wars' by 2020. And I don't mean veiled 'Oil Wars', I mean things like outright 'Water Wars' and 'Land Wars'; people fighting for their very survival, not just for cheap gas.

It's going to get very, very ugly.

who run bartertown?

 

[dodgefever]

I believe we do some good with our environmental efforts, but on a small local scale. The fact is one volcano eruption, or one natural forest fire has more effect on the planet than any "clean" efforts we may try. The earths history shows this. The planet cycles through cold then hot times. As far as today, it is NOT a proven fact we are going through global warming. A quick search on Google will turn up many scientists who believe we are in a global cooling time. Search it for yourself. It's just that politics hear the global warming guys louder.
Does it do any good to be environmentally friendly? Sure, but again, only to you. To think your savings of gas, or turning down the thermostat helps the entire planet, is like planning to lower the ocean depth by taking a teaspoon of water out.

 

[BlackSnake99]

I believe we do some good with our environmental efforts, but on a small local scale. The fact is one volcano eruption, or one natural forest fire has more effect on the planet than any "clean" efforts we may try. The earths history shows this. The planet cycles through cold then hot times. As far as today, it is NOT a proven fact we are going through global warming. A quick search on Google will turn up many scientists who believe we are in a global cooling time. Search it for yourself. It's just that politics hear the global warming guys louder.
Does it do any good to be environmentally friendly? Sure, but again, only to you. To think your savings of gas, or turning down the thermostat helps the entire planet, is like planning to lower the ocean depth by taking a teaspoon of water out.

Agree. SCIENCE shows that the mean temps have COOLED the last 11 years in a row. NASA climatologist no longer believe in it. The proponents are now forced to call it 'climate change'. I don't think its 'fake' or that anyone is lying (except AlGore) but they are hysterical and wrong. I also think that people get caught up in what's cool, hip and politically correct. Problem is, its impairing MY enjoyment of burning dead dinosaurs.

 

[DLTARNU]

The planet cycles through cold then hot times. As far as today, it is NOT a proven fact we are going through global warming.

I'm a cynic by nature, however, I've been to the Maldives and have seen the sinking islands. I've stood on an island that looked like it had a river running through the center of it, but it was saltwater, and it wasn't there a few years ago, and the islands have been there for between 4,500 - 12,000 years. The 'river' was caused by high tide, and ocean water was running from one side of the island to the other. This happens daily and will eventually split the island in two.

I've also been to the Arctic, Greenland and Chilean glaciers, and have seen the dramatic withdrawal of the ice. I've seen the *same* glacier in a span of 5 years draw back approximately 300 meters from the edge of the fjord it spills into. The exposed rock indicates that it had been covered for *thousands* of years.

A quick search on Google will turn up many scientists who believe we are in a global cooling time. Search it for yourself. It's just that politics hear the global warming guys louder.

On any given issue you'll find two (or probably more) sides. We can't, as a species, even get consensus on things like "****** was bad" or "The U.S. really landed on the moon." You'll always find someone, somewhere, willing to disagree no matter how much evidence is presented. As you suggested, I've not only read the differing opinions of many scientists, I've gone to the geographical locations of some of the most hotly disputed areas (glaciers, low lying islands, etc.) and based on my own eyes, I agree with the scientists who say the Earth is warming and that human activity is influencing it.

But our disagreement is academic, as I also agree with your conclusion that our efforts are insignificant when put in context with the size of the problem at hand. I do agree with making the human race as energy efficient as possible, but simply because efficiency is good in and of itself. Even if you disagree with automobiles and heavy industry causing global warming, practically no one disagrees that it causes pollution, and for that reason alone I'm in favor of going green.

 

[FastestBusaAround]

Green is the way to go, for sure as it will help preserve and protect our planet - but it's starting to piss me off as it's become an excuse for many governments to allow or even force industry as a whole to gouge consumers, in the name of "Green". I can think of many examples of this. Carbon credits will become the largest trading commodity in the near future as well...no doubt.

 

[Newport Viper]

Why does heathly food cost so much?

 

[Coloviper]

Oh boy.............One (1) Viper and Two (2) Cayenne Turbos (one is a Turbo S) in my garage. Both hit the list so I must be doing something right. Honestly I doubt my 1000 miles a year in the Viper does anthing to the envirnoment at all. What they need to write is that generally Viper owners don't drive as many miles so in a true year on average (average as I know some of you drive alot), we actually produce less emissions from the Viper than the Insight or Prius. Crazy stuff!

Really does anyone really think anything of this damn survey tree hugger type of reports. I better watch out for a flock of hippees from Boulder.

There is no doubt the Earth is going through changes. I use to think it was due to this and that, but the more you look at ALL the variables, there is just no direct proof. Does cleaning up "Industrial" carbons and other polutants matter, yes they do and companies should be doing this (it stimulates business). Does ridiculing a Viper for killing the planet make sense, absolutely not. Passenger cars and trucks are such a micro % of the problem. Problem is reduced trees, changing planet, earth cycles, solar flares, etc. One volcano can erupt and spew hundreds of more polutants in the air than all the passenger vehicles combined over the past 30 years. Transportation vehicles, trains, large trucks, etc. absolutely. Start by converting them all to Natural Gas, then whatever else down the road. Adressing a passenger vehicle does absolutely nothing to the environment. As others have stated, thermostats down, no A/C (calling it green), let's face it, it really is just cheap!

 

[Kevan]

UNRATLD: you're 100% correct.
And it's a bummer that Mother Nature is jerking us around like this- hot, cold, decent, cold, hot, decent, cold, etc.- but that's her job! She can be a real bietch sometimes.

The problem with all these "studies" (and I use that term VERY loosely) is that they're dealing with an insanely small slice of time. Yes- 1000 years is a drop in the Olympic-sized swimming pool of time our planet has been around. Hell, 1,000,000 might be enough for you to get your hair wet.
We humans have become so instant gratification-reliant that we want the change NOW, and we're irate that it doesn't happen immediately.
Sorry folks, but I want Tanya James and Holly Sampson for a weekend of lingere and hot tub shopping.
That's not going to happen either.

Instead of running around Chicken Little'ing it (see also: Al Gore), I have accepted that it won't happen. At the same time, I leave my number listed just in case...

The underground, uncontained, unstoppable coal fires that burn just in the U.S. release more nasties into the air in one day, than we as humans have in 100 years of driving automobiles.
And that's just in the U.S. I didn't include Russia, Europe, or Asia.

Oil is the Earth's *****.
The greenies should be thanking us for consuming as much as we do and recycling it at a rate they could only dream of.

BTW- to whomever asked, the T-shirt is from T-shirtHell.com.
WARNING: there are some *rough* shirts/sayings on the site. 18 and older.

 

[Darbgnik]

.

As you suggested, I've not only read the differing opinions of many scientists, I've gone to the geographical locations of some of the most hotly disputed areas (glaciers, low lying islands, etc.) and based on my own eyes, I agree with the scientists who say the Earth is warming and that human activity is influencing it.

QUOTE]

Not to argue for the sake of it, but seeing an effect, doesn't prove what caused it. Even seeing changes with my own eyes won't convince me we are the cause. Although no-one can prove we are not.

There is a reason it's called climate change now instead of global warming. It's easier to defend. Especially with the winter we just had. I also think that most of the climate change movement is driven by politics and money. Green is a brand these days.

 

[RTTTTed]

the viper is the best car on the planet for this

You must be registered for see images

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b334/UKViperClub/Viper Misc/news.jpg

Looks like the guy picked favorites or used hp numbers instead of mileage. Lambo's and Ferraris usually get just over 10mpg while my old Viper (800+bhp) gets 20mpg/us. My Hemi pick up gets 17mpg/us and the wife's Ford Escape got 16mpg. At 100mph my Viper still got 20mpg and the rest get WAAAAAAY less mileage. My Stealth R/T TT gets 26mpg/us.

The Gen 4 Vipers get 22mpg and stock Gen 2 Vipers get 20-21mpg/US. Factual ratings as we drove 6,000mi. west coast to Detroit last year. With a Ferrari you probably couldn't do that, unless you had a Ferrari shop to do your tune-up before you left? ($18.000).

I love my Good gas mileage Viper! I ask all Honda owners if they get 20mpg at 100mph - none of them know. I did test my "supertuned" SOHC 2.2 Daytona on a 350 mile trip after midnight ... and I did average about 33mpg @ 100mph. It only has about 250bhp though.

Ted

 

[Kevan]

Not to argue for the sake of it, but seeing an effect, doesn't prove what caused it. Even seeing changes with my own eyes won't convince me we are the cause. Although no-one can prove we are not.

There is a reason it's called climate change now instead of global warming. It's easier to defend. Especially with the winter we just had. I also think that most of the climate change movement is driven by politics and money. Green is a brand these days.

Don't fool yourself.
It's not that it's easier to defend.
It's that it's easier to CASH IN ON!!
It's called "green" for a reason, and it has nothing to do with leaves.

I wish that folks would frickin' read.
Just one sentence.
Three words.
That's all I ask:

Check out the back/bottom of ANY CFL bulb package.
EVERY ONE is "Made In China".
That's right- the eco-saving bulb the govt. and media are shoving down our throats comes from the largest polluter on the planet!

(I can do this all day.... )

 

[DLTARNU]

Not to argue for the sake of it, but seeing an effect, doesn't prove what caused it. Even seeing changes with my own eyes won't convince me we are the cause. Although no-one can prove we are not.

There is a reason it's called climate change now instead of global warming. It's easier to defend. Especially with the winter we just had. I also think that most of the climate change movement is driven by politics and money. Green is a brand these days.

Having a degree in biochemistry, I'm familiar with the scientific method and no, observation does not necessarily prove correlation.

However, I've gone further than most do to develop my own opinion with the data available, and while researching it, I excluded no one. I've read zealots on both poles of the argument, and everyone in between. Then, I physically visited some of the places where the effects are the most dramatic, and based on what I've read over the years and what I've seen with my own eyes, my opinion landed closer to the people who think global warming is happening and that human activity is influencing it.

To oversimplify a complex problem, there are 3 basic beliefs:

1) The planet is warming and human activity is the sole cause of it.
2) The planet is warming and human activity has nothing to do with it.
3) The planet is warming and human activity has something to do with it.

I'm in group 3.

I think the planet is probably entering a warming trend, and human activity is accelerating it.

I do not think going Green will reverse the trend, though I still think it's a good idea if for no other reason than reducing pollution. The potential slowing of a warming cycle is just an added benefit.

And yes, I might be wrong. So might you. So might anyone reading this, and anyone not reading this. However, I tend to not be hysterical in any of my opinions and I try to thoroughly research every topic, without prejudice, before solidifying any judgment on a given issue.

But I still might be wrong. I just don't think I am.

 

[Kevan]

To oversimplify a complex problem, there are 3 basic beliefs:

1) The planet is warming and human activity is the sole cause of it.
2) The planet is warming and human activity has nothing to do with it.
3) The planet is warming and human activity has something to do with it.

I'm in group 3.

I think the planet is probably entering a warming trend, and human activity is accelerating it.

I do not think going Green will reverse the trend, though I still think it's a good idea if for no other reason than reducing pollution. The potential slowing of a warming cycle is just an added benefit.

And yes, I might be wrong. So might you. So might anyone reading this, and anyone not reading this. However, I tend to not be hysterical in any of my opinions and I try to thoroughly research every topic, without prejudice, before solidifying any judgment on a given issue.

But I still might be wrong. I just don't think I am.

I'm with you, UNRATLD.
BUT......
We as humans are so minute compared to what Mother Nature does DAILY, that it's like shooing a BB gun at a grizzly. Actually, that's a bad metaphor. You don't want to yank Mother Nature's chain. LOL But I think you get my point. We are a shovel full of sand in the habu of the Earth changing.

I'm not going to run around lighting styrofoam on fire or throw old batteries into a reservoir.
But I'm not going to live in a fantasy world either.

Unlike you, I DO get hysterical.
Though only when the message being preached/force-fed is so outlandish, hypocritical, or insanely ironic that my 20A mental fuse blows.
You should see me during a Subaru commercial.

 

[J&R3xV10]

I saw a report several months back that showed, I believe it was 'greenhouse gas', produced by natural occurrences such as thermal venting vs by the human factor, and it was astonishing by percentage. Does anyone else remember seeing this?? It may have been a Yahoo front page report?

 

[RTTTTed]

GREEN equals gasoline fees are 60% TAX and 40 gas, transport, tax, etc.

Everything plastic, oil based, gas, glue, varnish, paint, electricity, license fees, ink transportation, etc etc etc - ALL TAX GOLD MINES. New ones added ever week. Like fuel our incomes mostly go towards paying taxes to hire more workers to do more paperwork and collect more of YOUR money.

Here, if a Truck Driver rolls his truck and spills the fuel tank of more than 25 gal. - he's liable for a $1,000,000 FINE. Read tax? Not sure how many Truck drivers have a million dollars in their banks ,,,,

Ted

 

[RTTTTed]

Umm, does anyone remember Mt. St. Helens Volcano? Enough emissions for 100 years of every car on the planet running all day long. Since there are full time Volcanos belching huge amounts of toxic gases into the atmosphere every minute on the 1/4 of the planet that actually has LAND to drive on, well ... trying to blame a few Billion people for planetary level pollution of Volcano proportions is just a tax grab. If we made a difference then the Volcanos wouldn't???

Give me a break. REsearch the amount of Volcanos during the last 50 years. Research weather phenomena like a decade ago when the entire west coast of N. America had brown skys for more than a week because a wind storm took dirt from the fields of China and dropped that dirt on our continent.

Is it HOT in China? The largest polluters in the world and it's COLD? really? Global Warming is just a tax grab because our Blizzard of the last three days is the earliest I've ever seen this much snow. Instead of the normal 2-4" of snow we got a Blizzard of 12". If the Lake freezes over as it almost did yesterday, that'll be the earliest I've ever seen.

Vancouver set a new record for the most rainfall during the last couple weeks. Vancouver got more snow last year than ever in recorded history. Kinda weird to get snow along the coastline, but they got qquite a few 12+| dumps of snow.

It was HOT this summer and much of BC burned in Forest Fires. Forest Fires that Pollute so badly that the smoke is expected to travel for hundreds and hundreds of miles. A thousand miles for a smoke cloud is not unusual. After hundreds of Forest Fires last summer I don't listen to idiots saying that I'M to BLAME???

Ted

 

[OzeViper]

the world wide "BEEF" industry creates a bigger "carbon footprint" than the world's transportation (cars/trucks/etc)

Also known is that the temperature of other planets in our solar system are getting "warmer" as well.

And last but not least, we have 6+ billion humans exhaling a green house gas all day every day.

Global warming is just a money grab like everything else

 

[spmorgan]

I find it disturbing to read that people believe that human activity isn't causing a huge impact on the planet as a whole. Whether it be by global destruction of thousands of species of animals, billions of acres of forests, or burning trillions of gallons of oil and gasoline. Sure, the earth has gone through huge cataclysmic changes before caused by humongous volcanoes, asteroids, etc, but to actually be the cause of one of these cataclysmic events and have people not even care seems very selfish.

We are making dramatic impact on this planet, and not in a way that is going to lead to positive changes for people in the future. We have done this damage in a very very short period of time, and if we don't take major steps today, your (I'm not going to have any) great grandkids are going to have a major concern to deal with.

Shawn

 

[Kevan]

Effect? Yes.
Dramatic effect? No.

Sorry Shawn, but that's been proven by hundreds of people with truckloads more grant money than us.

I ***DO*** care, but not to the extent that I will be come a sheeple with blinders on, stop reading & questioning, or stop thinking for myself.

Don't take my word for it.
Go to any store that has CFL bulbs.
Read the back.
EVERY SINGLE ONE, EVERY BRAND will say "Made In China".

Forget the MIC/uber-pollution part.
How about the DANGEROUS part?
That's right- CFL's contain MERCURY!
So, if you break a bulb, you are REQUIRED BY FEDERAL LAW (EPA) to call a local HazMat crew to come in and clean it up.
At about $3000 per visit, that's a little beyond some of our means.

As kids how many light bulbs did you accidentally break throwing the Nerf football around the living room? I'll confess to at least 5 (my little brother more because he thought he was Joe Montana.).
Now imagine one of your kids coming in contact with some non-contained Mercury.
Does that spiffy new health care bill floating around Capitol Hill have provisions regarding mercury poisoning and burns?

Let's say you don't break one and your kids come away unscathed during the life of the bulb.
Where do you think that bulb is going?
You got it: LANDFILL.
Mercury in a landfill. The nightmare that wakes greenies around the world.

I DO NOT want a "black planet".
Yet at the same time I won't be force-fed something untrue or hypocritical just to line the pockets of some (former or current) politician.
I REFUSE to stop thinking for myself.

 

[slaughterj]

It's pretty much unanimously agreed that global warming is occurring. The great debate is over whether or not industry and automobiles are the cause, or if it's just a natural warming cycle that has occurred several times in Earth's history.

Here is a great brief opinion piece that clearly lays out various matters regarding global warming:

Global Warming: Is It Really a Crisis? - Opinion - FOXNews.com

 

[spmorgan]

Uh...FoxNews? Really? Hmm, wonder what they are going to report.

 

[AviP]

That's right- CFL's contain MERCURY!
So, if you break a bulb, you are REQUIRED BY FEDERAL LAW (EPA) to call a local HazMat crew to come in and clean it up.
At about $3000 per visit, that's a little beyond some of our means.

As kids how many light bulbs did you accidentally break throwing the Nerf football around the living room? I'll confess to at least 5 (my little brother more because he thought he was Joe Montana.).
Now imagine one of your kids coming in contact with some non-contained Mercury.
Does that spiffy new health care bill floating around Capitol Hill have provisions regarding mercury poisoning and burns?

Let's say you don't break one and your kids come away unscathed during the life of the bulb.
Where do you think that bulb is going?
You got it: LANDFILL.
Mercury in a landfill. The nightmare that wakes greenies around the world.

I DO NOT want a "black planet".
Yet at the same time I won't be force-fed something untrue or hypocritical just to line the pockets of some (former or current) politician.
I REFUSE to stop thinking for myself.

CFLs do contain a small amount of mercury but it's small compared to the mercury emissions from burning coal for electricity. Check out this wiki on CFL. Scroll to section 8.2 Mercury emissions.

Also if you throw an intact, non-working CFL in your garbage then YOU are putting it in the landfill. The correct thing would be to take it to your local recycling center or Home Depot CFL recycling program.

For broken CFLs, the EPA says NEVER VACUUM the debris. Air the house, cleanup and bag the debris, discard any clothing that came in direct contact. Their guidelines are quite detailed.

I have switched my entire house to CFL and when LED lighting becomes affordable (at least 5 years) I'll switch to that too.

 

[AndrewDoe]

You must be registered for see images

 

[AndrewDoe]

Uh...FoxNews? Really? Hmm, wonder what they are going to report.

A NEW OCEANOGRAPHIC SATELLITE PREDICTS AT LEAST 23 MORE YEARS OF GLOBAL COOLING

It's not Fox News.

 

[J&R3xV10]

AviP.... LED is becoming more affordable all the time, as it becomes more usable and more common. Hell you can even get LED lighting for your in-ground pool, streetlights, everything. They are a bit expensive because in most cases they require a new wiring system unless you already had 12v wired in your house. But if you have it wired for 12v LED is most definitely available. The home I am planning on building is set to have all LED lighting and 12v outlets in addition to 110v, its amazing how much can be done with 12v!

 

[Kevan]

Wiki as a reference?
Really?

Sorry Avi, but I read something totally different regarding the EPA and cleanup of CFL bulbs.
Maybe they've changed it recently.
Nonetheless, a huge PITA compared to a broom and dust pan.
(not to mention the extra CO2 the human puts out during the extra work required for the clean-up, the extra miles to drive to HD/disposal site, the extra plastic bag usage, etc.)

LED's are cool, and very, VERY efficient.
It's a bummer that they don't have better lumen output currently.
No pun intended.

 

[B & R]

Kevan I would love to see this thread resurface after this winter to see what the talking is then, supposed to be a pretty cold one. I have read and listened to both sides of this argument as well, and the one thing a meteorologist stated is that carbon has very little effect on the temprature of the earth, the big blanket is H20, are we going to limit that too? Additionally, we have been asking the wrong scientist their views, instead of the Meteorologist we should be asking the Geologist, they have been studying these swings in temprature and the effects for a long time.

 

[Kevan]

B&R- you're on the right track. A geologist is a better option than a meterologist (no offense to the TWC MILFs).
Speaking of which, they're doing this "Forecast Earth" thing that presents some extreme misinformation.
For example, their recent "Highs & Lows" scale shows 270,000+ record highs and 149,000+ record lows since 2000.
There are two problems with that little chart:
1. U.S.A. only.
2. It's only over a period of less than 10 years.

As I said before, the sections of time we're dealing with are so small, it's very easy to run around Chicken Little'ing (see also: Al Gore).
100 years is a grain of sand on the Ipanema Beach of Earth's time.

Let's not forget we've got several billion years to go before the lights REALLY do go out.

 

[AndrewDoe]

I saw a report several months back that showed, I believe it was 'greenhouse gas', produced by natural occurrences such as thermal venting vs by the human factor, and it was astonishing by percentage. Does anyone else remember seeing this?? It may have been a Yahoo front page report?

Saw that too, and searched for the article, but couldn't remember how I arrived at it.

Thinking humans cause Global warming is like saying trees are the cause of forest fires....