EXECMALIBU
Enthusiast
JUST WONDERING WHAT 0-60 TIMES HAVE BEEN RUN WITH A 3:55 REAR END IN A STOCK 2001 RT-10 WITH TUBES AND FILTERS..
0-60 IS 4.1 SECONDS WITH A 3:07 REAR END... WHAT IS THE 0-60 TIME WITH 3:55 GEARS?
- Thread starter EXECMALIBU
- Start date
Craig 201 MPH
Enthusiast
with 3:55's it will probably be a bit quicker because with the stock 3:07's you still have to shift. But the 1/4 is about the same becasue an extra shift is required. I beleive you have to go into 4th.
Craig
Craig
onerareviper
Enthusiast
IMHO, this has been beat to death. I can't see why a Viper would be any different than any other car with gears. And from my experience, the higher (numerical) gear, the better - AS LONG AS YOU CAN HOOK THE TIRES. This comment only relates to pure acceleration, and not road racing/autocross. A lot more factors at work with those type of events. I have a '98 with 3.73 gear (approx. 440 RWHP), and I CAN hook the michelans (18' Pilot Sports). A little clutch modulation is all that's needed. I promise you there is NO WAY I could get to 60 or 100 or 150 or whatever faster in the same car with 3.07's. IT IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE. Some negatives are - top speed is decreased, you shift more frequently (I don't consider this a negative), hooking the tires is more difficult, gas mileage on highway is decreased. Unfortunately, I don't have any absolute PROOF. I did race a new 911 Turbo the other day (30-150), and let's just say about 25 car lengths was pulled. I think he was VERY surprised (****, I was surpised to pull that hard) . My second kill to date (First was an M5). I hope the next person that buys 3.55 or 3.73 test his car with 3.07 (0-60) (0-100) (0-150) before installing the steeper gears. Same driver, same car is the only way to confirm. Lets put this debate to rest....
joe117
Enthusiast
If you multiply the rear ratio x the trans ratio you get the overall ratio. If you have a 3.55 in the back you will start out in first, of course, with higher ratio overall gearing. After you shift into second you are not going to be gaining anything from the 3.55 rear. You will, at that point be at a mph speed where you could have been still in first gear with the 3.07 at a more favorable, higher, ratio. I think this is true, isn't it?
V10 MOJO
Enthusiast
onerareviper got it right. and BTW good job waxing a porche! look for the silversnake in the burgh, im there often
Motor City Mad Man
Enthusiast
Ok, I have the 3.45 gears in my Viper. I don't think it helped at all in 0-60 or 1/4 mile because as Jon B. said it does make it harder to hook up, but it didn't hurt me either. But, from a roll, YES, you will feel it. I also added an aluminum flywheel which makes it more kick asp. My buddy on this board with a modded twin turbo Supra, yes I hate to say it SUPRA
, said I am the only Viper he has raced from a roll that was able to keep up with him. So we think it must be my aftermarket 3.45 gears. Sure I lose some top end, but I am not planning on racing it other than drag racing and you have to be crazy to take it to 190 or 200mph on the street anyways. Although I took it close to their once or twice.
Get the gear change, I think you'll like it.
onerareviper
Enthusiast
I think another consideration is the pavement conditions in your area. If you have a hard time hooking with 3.07, forget about gears. For example, I drove a stock '98 GTS and from a 15-20 MPH roll, I SLAMMED the gas (1'st gear). Not even a hint of wheel spin on road around my house on a warm day. But other members contend they have problems with traction with this kind of test. My only logical conclusion is different pavement conditions. Now with the 3.73's, this test causes instant wheel spin, unless it is a really hot road surface. I either have to ease on the gas a fraction slower, or modulate the clutch slightly. The acceleration is explosive if done properly. HEAD SLAMM'IN....
You also have to be more cautious when accelerating out of a turn. Remember, the torque has increased substantially. It just takes some practice and common sense. Ease the throttle outta that turn...
You also have to be more cautious when accelerating out of a turn. Remember, the torque has increased substantially. It just takes some practice and common sense. Ease the throttle outta that turn...
Performin Norman
Enthusiast
One thing I have never understood is that once the 3.07 gear starts to turn the tires, you are in deep doo doo. They spin like mad. This is due to the coefficient of kinetic friction being lower when the tires spins faster. The slower the tire is turning relative to the ground, the easier it is to accelerate due to the higher coefficient of kinetic friction. I think it all comes down to driver control. The 3.07s are initially harder to spin but once they start, they are harder to control. The 3.55s (for example) spin easier initially due to the added torque lever on the rear tires but once they start spinning, the 3.55s should be easier to control.
I don't understand! haha JMHO and worth what you paid for it.
I don't understand! haha JMHO and worth what you paid for it.
Newport Viper
Enthusiast
OK,
It's time for a test. I have one week before I change to 3.55. Any one have a g-tech they will loan?
I am not a racer so this will be good to see what it means to the average driver.
I rode in a 3.55 1994/RT my head bounced off the passengers seat, in both second and third.
G-tech any one?
It's time for a test. I have one week before I change to 3.55. Any one have a g-tech they will loan?
I am not a racer so this will be good to see what it means to the average driver.
I rode in a 3.55 1994/RT my head bounced off the passengers seat, in both second and third.
G-tech any one?
onerareviper
Enthusiast
From what I read, GTECH's are not that reliable, especially when wheel spin is involved. A passenger with a good stop watch could be very accurate, if his timing is good. Take the average of 5 runs 0-60, 0-100, 0-120 and 0-150. On a closed track, of course.
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
I guess I'm the skeptic. So far I've only seen one post that gave actual times. The gears were credited with better 1/4s of .2 Not bad at all but I sure would like to see more 1/4 time confirmations rather than SOTP.
Newport, you don't have to be a racer to do the test. Just go to the track make 6 or 8 passes and get an average before and after. Same tire pressures and all. I'd really like to see the results.
Newport, you don't have to be a racer to do the test. Just go to the track make 6 or 8 passes and get an average before and after. Same tire pressures and all. I'd really like to see the results.
Newport Viper
Enthusiast
No good tracks close by. I do have some "closed tracks" in the area. I will make sure everthing is as close as possible. (Temp, humidity, time of day, sunshine, engine temp. ect.)
G-tech for loan?
How about a roll test vs. another Viper anyone?
G-tech for loan?
How about a roll test vs. another Viper anyone?
MES
Enthusiast
It seems that it shouldn't be too hard to test. Find two stock Vipers one with gears and one with stock 3.07's. Do some rolling runs, 2nd gear 40 MPH for example or 3rd gear 50 MPH and see if the geared car pulls ahead and by how much. Take the shifting and launching out of the equation, to see if the gears make much of a difference.
onerareviper
Enthusiast
MES,
True, but you know as well as I do the only way to end this debate is same car, same driver. Same weather would be nice as well. And take a week or so to get used to the 3.55 gear. Launching properly takes some practice. I think 0-120 or 0-150 will be the interesting number. Going from a roll may eliminate some traction issues, but that's part of the game with gears.
Later
True, but you know as well as I do the only way to end this debate is same car, same driver. Same weather would be nice as well. And take a week or so to get used to the 3.55 gear. Launching properly takes some practice. I think 0-120 or 0-150 will be the interesting number. Going from a roll may eliminate some traction issues, but that's part of the game with gears.
Later
jcaspar1
Enthusiast
You should shift into 4th for the quarter with 3.07's for max mph. With a stock Viper you will be doing over 120 mph at the end of the quarter resulting in an averaged mph of 117 to 118.
I would really like some documentation that 3.55's improve 0-60 and 1/4 times before switching
I would really like some documentation that 3.55's improve 0-60 and 1/4 times before switching
0-60 is NOT the statistic that improves drastically with 3.55.
The extra wheelspin you have to contend with before hookup is the reason.
Once hookup is achieved, 30-120mph is where the times fall.
SOTP feel in a "Rolling Start" is whats impressive. So any street-fighting is an unfair advantage! Wheras the 1320' run is NOT a drastic difference.
30-150 is probably 3 seconds faster....25 carlengths.
This also shows up on the dyno in time-to-peak HP.
The extra wheelspin you have to contend with before hookup is the reason.
Once hookup is achieved, 30-120mph is where the times fall.
SOTP feel in a "Rolling Start" is whats impressive. So any street-fighting is an unfair advantage! Wheras the 1320' run is NOT a drastic difference.
30-150 is probably 3 seconds faster....25 carlengths.
This also shows up on the dyno in time-to-peak HP.
Bad_Byte
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Newport Viper:
How about a roll test vs. another Viper anyone?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sounds like you're asking for a race? How about putting up that blonde super model cup holder?
Just kidding of course.
How about a roll test vs. another Viper anyone?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sounds like you're asking for a race? How about putting up that blonde super model cup holder?
Just kidding of course.
SoCal Craig
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Newport Viper:
OK,
It's time for a test. I have one week before I change to 3.55. Any one have a g-tech they will loan?
I am not a racer so this will be good to see what it means to the average driver.
I rode in a 3.55 1994/RT my head bounced off the passengers seat, in both second and third.
G-tech any one?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have a G-Tech that you can borrow. Let me know and we can meet somewhere.
OK,
It's time for a test. I have one week before I change to 3.55. Any one have a g-tech they will loan?
I am not a racer so this will be good to see what it means to the average driver.
I rode in a 3.55 1994/RT my head bounced off the passengers seat, in both second and third.
G-tech any one?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have a G-Tech that you can borrow. Let me know and we can meet somewhere.
SoCal Craig
Enthusiast
I'm not into drag racing but would like to know if the 3.55's would be any benefit on the track (i.e. Viper Days). Has anyone driven both the stock 3.07's and 3.55's on the track? Paging Ron Wasserman... don't you have 3.55's on your RT-10?
toddt
Enthusiast
I'm really interested in this thread. The worst mod I ever made to my old car was using a shorter rearend. It was an automatic, though. People swore, flat swore to me the same things I hear here, and my car actually got slower.
I find it hard to believe that would happen with a viper, but also, I'm interested in real freeway performance. I can't believe, and I actually laugh when I read it when people think that going from a 3.07 to a 3.55 turns the viper into a different car on the freeway beating other cars my x number of more car lengths (the implication is that it wouldn't happen with 3.07's). I'm not laughing in derision, mind you, I'm simply laughing in disbelief...
The best mod you can make to your gear ratio at 60 miles an hour is to downshift.
One thing I have learned is that differential/tranny gear tuning is not as simple as choosing a bigger number. It's every bit an engineering decision, and needs engineering analysis...
Please let us know how it goes...
I find it hard to believe that would happen with a viper, but also, I'm interested in real freeway performance. I can't believe, and I actually laugh when I read it when people think that going from a 3.07 to a 3.55 turns the viper into a different car on the freeway beating other cars my x number of more car lengths (the implication is that it wouldn't happen with 3.07's). I'm not laughing in derision, mind you, I'm simply laughing in disbelief...
The best mod you can make to your gear ratio at 60 miles an hour is to downshift.
One thing I have learned is that differential/tranny gear tuning is not as simple as choosing a bigger number. It's every bit an engineering decision, and needs engineering analysis...
Please let us know how it goes...
Newport Viper
Enthusiast
Craig you have mail!
phiebert
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Performin Norman:
One thing I have never understood is that once the 3.07 gear starts to turn the tires, you are in deep doo doo. They spin like mad. This is due to the coefficient of kinetic friction being lower when the tires spins faster. The slower the tire is turning relative to the ground, the easier it is to accelerate due to the higher coefficient of kinetic friction. I think it all comes down to driver control. The 3.07s are initially harder to spin but once they start, they are harder to control. The 3.55s (for example) spin easier initially due to the added torque lever on the rear tires but once they start spinning, the 3.55s should be easier to control.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Norman has it right. From both a physics standpoint and from mine (having had the 3.07's, drag raced and G-tech'd and gone to the 3.55's). When you break the tires loose with the 3.07's your tires are spinning faster (less friction) and therefore propelling forward slower. Not to mention that it is more difficult and time consuming to get the tires back to the speed where a hook up is going to happen. Put another way, I always feel like I am about to break loose with the 3.55's but because their 'range' is more compact they hook up faster in every gear and I waste less time getting traction.
Now I've used my G-tech before and after and although it is useful to gauge new mods it isn't anywhere near accurate for horsepower rating at least. But it does register from 10 to 20 more HP with the 3.55's then it did with the 3.07's. But the test wasn't pure since I wasn't on the same road, different weather, temp, etc.
The bottom line is that you lose nothing with going to 3.55's except top end. You will be in better control (once you get used to them), you will have better 60ft or 0-60 times because you CAN hook up better with them and you'll still be shifting into 4th in the 1/4.
If you want an example of hooking up with 3.07's vs. 355's...take a ten-speed bicycle onto a sheet of ice. Now put it in 10th gear (call this the 3.07 test). Try to get moving. You will always be spinning or bogging down if you don't push too hard. Now put it in 1st gear (call this the 3.55 or 3.73 test). You will have a much easier time of moving forward without spinning although technically its easier to spin in 1st then in 10th gear. Now you understand the difference. With 3.07's you have two choices, bog your engine for a split second or light 'em up. With 3.55's you can launch at a lower rpm but not too low to bog but still be in the torque range to take off when you have full hook up.
Argument shields up!
PS. I almost forgot the original question of this post. My estimate is that if 0-60 time is 4.1 with 3.07's, I could do it in 4.0 with 3.55's. I don't have any test to prove this but since I can drop 2/10ths of a second on the 1/8th mile with 3.55's and since my 1/8th mile time is in the high 7's then it stands to reason that around half of the two tenths could be dropped in half the time.
One thing I have never understood is that once the 3.07 gear starts to turn the tires, you are in deep doo doo. They spin like mad. This is due to the coefficient of kinetic friction being lower when the tires spins faster. The slower the tire is turning relative to the ground, the easier it is to accelerate due to the higher coefficient of kinetic friction. I think it all comes down to driver control. The 3.07s are initially harder to spin but once they start, they are harder to control. The 3.55s (for example) spin easier initially due to the added torque lever on the rear tires but once they start spinning, the 3.55s should be easier to control.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Norman has it right. From both a physics standpoint and from mine (having had the 3.07's, drag raced and G-tech'd and gone to the 3.55's). When you break the tires loose with the 3.07's your tires are spinning faster (less friction) and therefore propelling forward slower. Not to mention that it is more difficult and time consuming to get the tires back to the speed where a hook up is going to happen. Put another way, I always feel like I am about to break loose with the 3.55's but because their 'range' is more compact they hook up faster in every gear and I waste less time getting traction.
Now I've used my G-tech before and after and although it is useful to gauge new mods it isn't anywhere near accurate for horsepower rating at least. But it does register from 10 to 20 more HP with the 3.55's then it did with the 3.07's. But the test wasn't pure since I wasn't on the same road, different weather, temp, etc.
The bottom line is that you lose nothing with going to 3.55's except top end. You will be in better control (once you get used to them), you will have better 60ft or 0-60 times because you CAN hook up better with them and you'll still be shifting into 4th in the 1/4.
If you want an example of hooking up with 3.07's vs. 355's...take a ten-speed bicycle onto a sheet of ice. Now put it in 10th gear (call this the 3.07 test). Try to get moving. You will always be spinning or bogging down if you don't push too hard. Now put it in 1st gear (call this the 3.55 or 3.73 test). You will have a much easier time of moving forward without spinning although technically its easier to spin in 1st then in 10th gear. Now you understand the difference. With 3.07's you have two choices, bog your engine for a split second or light 'em up. With 3.55's you can launch at a lower rpm but not too low to bog but still be in the torque range to take off when you have full hook up.
Argument shields up!
PS. I almost forgot the original question of this post. My estimate is that if 0-60 time is 4.1 with 3.07's, I could do it in 4.0 with 3.55's. I don't have any test to prove this but since I can drop 2/10ths of a second on the 1/8th mile with 3.55's and since my 1/8th mile time is in the high 7's then it stands to reason that around half of the two tenths could be dropped in half the time.
Backdoc7
Enthusiast
Newport!! what's going on.. ok.. here's an option.. we both have similar cars and mods.. get your gears done before i do.. and come on out my way. and we will do some "testing" over by my house.. i planned on getting the gears at the end of this month. so.. that sould give us a week or two to get some good "data".. the only difference in your car and mine i think is you have an alumminum flywheel and i have an arrow engine rebuild.. so.. shouldn't make that much difference.. should be fun and interesting. let me know Bill
toddt
Enthusiast
It's funny you brought up the 10-speed on the ice argument.
At my last post, I had a similar thought process, but it went more like this:
Your legs are a high torque, low horsepower engine.
Can you get up to speed on your ten speed faster by starting in first gear, fifth gear, or tenth gear? (no ice).
I think the answer depends on how easily you can turn the highest gear. If you can turn tenth gear easily, I guarantee you will get to speed faster by starting in 10th and not in first, then shifting.
If you had shrimpy legs, but could move them amazingly fast, you might beat the guy starting in tenth gear even though you start in first.
This effect, I think, may explain why the stock gearing MAY (I say MAY) be more optimal for 0-60 times than shorter gears.
Effectively, from the line, the Viper engine is that high torque, low horsepower engine. You must keep the engine in the torque band at launch not the horsepower peak. Otherwise, you lose the rearend completely. Since you can spin the 3.07's no problem, you MAY wind up getting to redline SLOWER than the 3.55s but getting to a faster speed for the same amount of elapsed time.
That's my story and I'm stickin to it.
At my last post, I had a similar thought process, but it went more like this:
Your legs are a high torque, low horsepower engine.
Can you get up to speed on your ten speed faster by starting in first gear, fifth gear, or tenth gear? (no ice).
I think the answer depends on how easily you can turn the highest gear. If you can turn tenth gear easily, I guarantee you will get to speed faster by starting in 10th and not in first, then shifting.
If you had shrimpy legs, but could move them amazingly fast, you might beat the guy starting in tenth gear even though you start in first.
This effect, I think, may explain why the stock gearing MAY (I say MAY) be more optimal for 0-60 times than shorter gears.
Effectively, from the line, the Viper engine is that high torque, low horsepower engine. You must keep the engine in the torque band at launch not the horsepower peak. Otherwise, you lose the rearend completely. Since you can spin the 3.07's no problem, you MAY wind up getting to redline SLOWER than the 3.55s but getting to a faster speed for the same amount of elapsed time.
That's my story and I'm stickin to it.
nope, check the chart http://orbitdevelopment.com/viper/gears.asp
and http://www.socalviper.org/techtips/TT10.HTM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by joe117:
If you have a 3.55 in the back you will start out in first, of course, with higher ratio overall gearing. After you shift into second you are not going to be gaining anything from the 3.55 rear. You will, at that point be at a mph speed where you could have been still in first gear with the 3.07 at a more favorable, higher, ratio. I think this is true, isn't it?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
and http://www.socalviper.org/techtips/TT10.HTM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by joe117:
If you have a 3.55 in the back you will start out in first, of course, with higher ratio overall gearing. After you shift into second you are not going to be gaining anything from the 3.55 rear. You will, at that point be at a mph speed where you could have been still in first gear with the 3.07 at a more favorable, higher, ratio. I think this is true, isn't it?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
MichaelP
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by toddt:
It's funny you brought up the 10-speed on the ice argument.
At my last post, I had a similar thought process, but it went more like this:
Your legs are a high torque, low horsepower engine.
Can you get up to speed on your ten speed faster by starting in first gear, fifth gear, or tenth gear? (no ice).
I think the answer depends on how easily you can turn the highest gear. If you can turn tenth gear easily, I guarantee you will get to speed faster by starting in 10th and not in first, then shifting.
If you had shrimpy legs, but could move them amazingly fast, you might beat the guy starting in tenth gear even though you start in first.
This effect, I think, may explain why the stock gearing MAY (I say MAY) be more optimal for 0-60 times than shorter gears.
Effectively, from the line, the Viper engine is that high torque, low horsepower engine. You must keep the engine in the torque band at launch not the horsepower peak. Otherwise, you lose the rearend completely. Since you can spin the 3.07's no problem, you MAY wind up getting to redline SLOWER than the 3.55s but getting to a faster speed for the same amount of elapsed time.
That's my story and I'm stickin to it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Take it from a road bike racer try another analogy it doesn't hold water here.
It's funny you brought up the 10-speed on the ice argument.
At my last post, I had a similar thought process, but it went more like this:
Your legs are a high torque, low horsepower engine.
Can you get up to speed on your ten speed faster by starting in first gear, fifth gear, or tenth gear? (no ice).
I think the answer depends on how easily you can turn the highest gear. If you can turn tenth gear easily, I guarantee you will get to speed faster by starting in 10th and not in first, then shifting.
If you had shrimpy legs, but could move them amazingly fast, you might beat the guy starting in tenth gear even though you start in first.
This effect, I think, may explain why the stock gearing MAY (I say MAY) be more optimal for 0-60 times than shorter gears.
Effectively, from the line, the Viper engine is that high torque, low horsepower engine. You must keep the engine in the torque band at launch not the horsepower peak. Otherwise, you lose the rearend completely. Since you can spin the 3.07's no problem, you MAY wind up getting to redline SLOWER than the 3.55s but getting to a faster speed for the same amount of elapsed time.
That's my story and I'm stickin to it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Take it from a road bike racer try another analogy it doesn't hold water here.
TOOOFST
Enthusiast
If you go 355,get the new pilots 345 taller wider.I had trouble at the track with the 355,but haven't given up.I ran Paolo's 96GTS with, 470RWHP to my 420RWHP,the gear made it a good close race.I've ran him with the 307 and he walked me.Don't change the gear using NOS.
viper spray
Enthusiast
Do I get 355's or not? I was all set to order them and then I read this.All I want is to go faster in the quarter mile.My mods are listed below and include a 135hp shot of nitrous.(95 RT10)Help!!!
joe117
Enthusiast
Marv S
What I mean about the advantage of a 3.55 going away when you shift from first to second, while the stock 3.07 stays longer in first is, like you say, in the charts.
With a 3.55 you shift at 50 mph into second. You now have an overall ratio of 3.55x1.78=6.39 while the guy with the 3.07 is still in first until 58 mph with a ratio of 3.07x2.66=8.166. So he's got a better ratio for a little while. Right?
What I mean about the advantage of a 3.55 going away when you shift from first to second, while the stock 3.07 stays longer in first is, like you say, in the charts.
With a 3.55 you shift at 50 mph into second. You now have an overall ratio of 3.55x1.78=6.39 while the guy with the 3.07 is still in first until 58 mph with a ratio of 3.07x2.66=8.166. So he's got a better ratio for a little while. Right?
toddt
Enthusiast
I still have never seen anyone post actual comparison numbers between the two. This topic may have been "beat to death", but it was never quantified.
I definitely believe that from a rolling start, like JonB said, the difference is wonderful...
EDIT: but 25 car lengths? no. Don't believe it.
I definitely believe that from a rolling start, like JonB said, the difference is wonderful...
EDIT: but 25 car lengths? no. Don't believe it.
