08 ACR Exhaust Recommendations After No-Go on Hennesey Unit

[Grant]

Warranties cannot legally be voided on dealer discretion. Of course the dealer can try and may get away with it, but Chrysler is contractually bound to supply a warranty. CELs don't tell you anything about how the vehicle was maintained or driven, but I suppose dealers may be looking for any excuse to void warranties on modified cars.

The ACR owner's manual specifically says its warranty doesn't cover breakage and such due to racing use. Thats a far cry from refusing the cover the entire car if its used on the track. Warranty terms listed in the owners manual are sometimes not found to be legally binding if they weren't present in the contract the buyer signed, though.

Anyways, the point of O2 simms is to prevent a CEL. If the codes thrown are emissions-related, they, or circuits like them, may work fine.

What codes are being thrown?

 

[1BADGTS]

Welcome to the forum!

They cannot endorse it of course so you will inherit the risk of it causing any problems. We have never had issues though so I am confident offering it as an option. As with everything we install I try to support the modifications as much as I can with the assurance that I will be there to help if there is a problem. I can't take on all the responsibility but will certainly be well equipped to help more than most.

Grant the above quote is from the service manager of probably the largest Viper dealership in the country.Depending upon the customers relationship with the dealer and the dealers zone rep Dodge can red flag a warranty for customer bolt on performance parts that cause check engine lights .In addition they can redflagg and ACR warranty if an owner tracks the car on a roadracing coarse without a warranty claim involved.If you took the time to look back their have been numerious WARNING posts about this from John B.(man who probably knows more about Viper than anybody around )Once a warranty is red flagged is it worth years to get it in court and god knows how many thousands of dollars to a lawyer to try to get it back.

 

[tiger6]

Thats funny Woodhouse is claiming no problems at all (they dealer install alot of them )Lou Ballanger himself said if they are installed properly =no light.Do you have first hand info on such topic ?

Yes. My '08 ACR has the full Ballanger exhaust and has thrown code no.'s 420 and 430 since I have owned it. I initially thought it might be a result of low rpms in 4th or 5th gear, but the check engine light has come on at higher rpms also. I followed the recommended break-in procedure and the car has ~ 1700miles so far. I have had several experiences where the light will go out on its own only to come back on later. There seems to be no loss of power when the light is on. As far as I know, there is no solution to this problem as yet.

 

[Grant]

Grant the above quote is from the service manager of probably the largest Viper dealership in the country.Depending upon the customers relationship with the dealer and the dealers zone rep Dodge can red flag a warranty for customer bolt on performance parts that cause check engine lights .In addition they can redflagg and ACR warranty if an owner tracks the car on a roadracing coarse without a warranty claim involved.If you took the time to look back their have been numerious WARNING posts about this from John B.(man who probably knows more about Viper than anybody around )Once a warranty is red flagged is it worth years to get it in court and god knows how many thousands of dollars to a lawyer to try to get it back.

Yes, I know who Mark J. is, I'm getting my ACR from Woodhouse...

A dealer can flag a warranty for whatever reason that want. Mitsubishi dealers used to actively scan online results of SCCA autocrosses in order to void warrenties on Evo 8s and 9s. I'm not sure how Chrysler works, but typically you can appeal to a local manager of your brand to get an unjust flag cleared.

Any tech with even the slightest ounce of sense knows that an emissions-related codes (420 and 430 are catalyst efficiency codes) aren't going to affect the reliability of the engine, and could be caused by something as simple as bad O2 sensors or a bad tank of gas. If Chrysler wants to commit blatant fraud by claiming that a reduction in catalyst efficiency causes engine failure, then you're right we can't stop them without lawyers. It will just be the last Chrysler I ever purchase. And yes I've read JonB's thread; he quotes from the owner's manual.

In any case it sounds like O2 simms could solve the problem. I suppose I could put my scope on the secondary O2s and find out, once I get the car. Does anyone know if the newer cars still use narrow-band O2s?

 

[1BADGTS]

Whatever, point being doing add on performance parts or being on a race track with an ACR can void the factory warranty(should this in fact happen the owner of the car could of coarse sue -resulting in legal fees

 

[SilveRT8]

Yes. My '08 ACR has the full Ballanger exhaust and has thrown code no.'s 420 and 430 since I have owned it. I initially thought it might be a result of low rpms in 4th or 5th gear, but the check engine light has come on at higher rpms also. I followed the recommended break-in procedure and the car has ~ 1700miles so far. I have had several experiences where the light will go out on its own only to come back on later. There seems to be no loss of power when the light is on. As far as I know, there is no solution to this problem as yet.

An easy solution to view and clear trouble codes is with this little Dashhawk gauge from MSD that simply plugs into the PCM adaptor under the dash. Under $300 from MSD or E-bay or other vendors
DashHawk Vehicle Information Display
It also serves as a 0-60 performance monitor + 1/4 mile readings, has over 12 different screens that you taylor to your taste to view most functions from your engine such as temps, O2 sensors, cat temps, advance timing, IAT and AAT temps, rpm,speed,throttle position etc... Like many of the guys with Jeep SRT8 I have been using it for a over 2 years now. I've been getting the P420 and P430 codes on the Jeep too wich is caused by headers. It works on most cars 2006 + that have Canbus tech. I tried it on my 08 Viper and it works.
Claude

 

[1BADGTS]

An easy solution to view and clear trouble codes is with this little Dashhawk gauge from MSD that simply plugs into the PCM adaptor under the dash. Under $300 from MSD or E-bay or other vendors
DashHawk Vehicle Information Display
It also serves as a 0-60 performance monitor + 1/4 mile readings, has over 12 different screens that you taylor to your taste to view most functions from your engine such as temps, O2 sensors, cat temps, advance timing, IAT and AAT temps, rpm,speed,throttle position etc... Like many of the guys with Jeep SRT8 I have been using it for a over 2 years now. I've been getting the P420 and P430 codes on the Jeep too wich is caused by headers. It works on most cars 2006 + that have Canbus tech. I tried it on my 08 Viper and it works.
Claude

What good is clearing the codes without correcting the cause of the codes(the problems ) as they will just come back in time

 

[SilveRT8]

What good is clearing the codes without correcting the cause of the codes(the problems ) as they will just come back in time

If you dont clear the Cell light because of something minor like headers and something major happens, you wont know because the light is already on. So it's better to clear it untill you find a permanent solution. On the Jeep when running headers we can eliminate the Cats code via Diablo Predator similar to SCT Tuner. I dont know the permanent solution for the Vipers.
Claude

 

[1BADGTS]

I understand exactly what your saying but the problem is (minor or not )the headers are causing the che light and that MAY cause owners some MAJOR aggrevation as far as warranty ,resale ect.

 

[Grant]

Claude,

Look into O2 sensor simulators. CELs from changing or removing cats are not new to the automotive world, and people have been getting around these for ages. You might need to verify that the '08 sensors behave as normal O2s do (I assume they are narrow band units?), but getting around secondary O2 CELs is routine now.

If they aren't narrow band sensors, you might have to have something custom made.

 

[SilveRT8]

I understand exactly what your saying but the problem is (minor or not )the headers are causing the che light and that MAY cause owners some MAJOR aggrevation as far as warranty ,resale ect.

Exactly,but at least the Dashhawk is a solution to clear the codes before going in for service at the Dealer.I had to do it a few times on my Jeep.
Claude

 

[SilveRT8]

Claude,

Look into O2 sensor simulators. CELs from changing or removing cats are not new to the automotive world, and people have been getting around these for ages. You might need to verify that the '08 sensors behave as normal O2s do (I assume they are narrow band units?), but getting around secondary O2 CELs is routine now.

If they aren't narrow band sensors, you might have to have something custom made.

On the SRT8 Jeep O2 sims didn't work, neither did adding Spark plug foulers or turning off the rear O2 heaters. Only turning off rear O2 sensors via a Handheld Tuner like Diablo Predator did it.
So what is the solution to prevent the Cels on 08 Vipers?
Claude

 

[ViperTony]

Yes. My '08 ACR has the full Ballanger exhaust and has thrown code no.'s 420 and 430 since I have owned it. I initially thought it might be a result of low rpms in 4th or 5th gear, but the check engine light has come on at higher rpms also. I followed the recommended break-in procedure and the car has ~ 1700miles so far. I have had several experiences where the light will go out on its own only to come back on later. There seems to be no loss of power when the light is on. As far as I know, there is no solution to this problem as yet.

Just a thought...try calling Lou Belanger (one L) about the CEL. (623) 582-5900. Being the inventor of the system he may be able to help and/or will want to know as much detail as possible regarding the codes. I'd also contact Dan Cragin at DC Performance for help. Have you gone back to the installer/dealer of the Belanger system about this issue? If so, what was their response? Or was this a self-install?

 

[Grant]

On the SRT8 Jeep O2 sims didn't work, neither did adding Spark plug foulers or turning off the rear O2 heaters. Only turning off rear O2 sensors via a Handheld Tuner like Diablo Predator did it.
So what is the solution to prevent the Cels on 08 Vipers?

I've got an o-scope I can put on my secondary O2s whenever I get around to putting an exhaust on my car. That might yield some answers, though hopefully someone else will do it first. There are some O2 sims that have some sort of "Adjustable" waveforms that might work too; I think I've read of some sims working on SRT8s.

Did you try using the old "spark plug non-fouler" trick?

 

[snakebite52]

Drone is a constant and sometimes loud resonating sound created by the exhaust system which usually occurs at certain RPMs, usually right about at normal cruise RPMs. Usually more of a concern for those that take longer trips in their car than those who just useit to blast around town on a Saturday night.

ahh gotcha. i kno what it is now and know exactly what you are talking about

 

[1BADGTS]

I really wanted them bad for my 08 as i had them on my 96 BUT absolutely no way i am going to spend 4grand for headers and exhaust and risk encountering the above.To me at least the products should be perfected before its released for sale to the public that is unless the install was not done correctly (computer reading extra air ect )

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

I have seen the results and have 100% confidence that the product is THE BEST out there and the ONLY way to make an extra 70+hp with the Gen4 Viper. In that regard is is a steal hp/dollar. We have had only one code in all we have done and that gentleman was driving in sixth at 950 rpm all day. Not exactly officiant and once we had him drive a bit harder the codes cleared and **** no more issue.

I really think there is way to much trepidation considering where these headers came from. Lou Belanger has been around a long time and supported the Viper program. He has earned the reputation that his products are well thought out and TESTED to prove their worth. How many others are willing to do more than post some dyno sheet proclaiming their greatness? If the headers and 02's are properly installed and EVERYTHING is functioning the way it should you should have no issues with the use of the Belanger products.

Thank you,

I really wanted them bad for my 08 as i had them on my 96 BUT absolutely no way i am going to spend 4grand for headers and exhaust and risk encountering the above.To me at least the products should be perfected before its released for sale to the public that is unless the install was not done correctly (computer reading extra air ect )

 

[1BADGTS]

Thank you Mark i had them on my 96 and they were great ,if the system was not installed properly that says it all .Ps the origionalperson who claimed to havs a che problem failed to mention that there may be an installiation problem

 

[1BADGTS]

Not correct-they will.

Tiger they will if the headers were not installed properly .Is it the headers or much more likely the installer not knowing what he was doing and the system leaking causing the CHE

 

[tiger6]

Tiger they will if the headers were not installed properly .Is it the headers or much more likely the installer not knowing what he was doing and the system leaking causing the CHE

If the installation is the problem, what is the recommended solution?

 

[1BADGTS]

You have to have the exhaust system looked at by someone who is qualifyed and go from there.(If necc have the installer get on the phone with Ballanger to find out whats up.)

 

[Grant]

An easy way to check for leaks is to hook an OBD2 scanner up to the car. If there is a pre-O2 exhaust leak, you'll positive fuel trims (adding fuel) on the bank of cylinders with the leak.

Sometimes its as simple as re-torquing the header bolts after the car has been brought up to temperature (and back down again, or you'll probably burn yourself).

 

[SilveRT8]

An easy way to check for leaks is to hook an OBD2 scanner up to the car. If there is a pre-O2 exhaust leak, you'll positive fuel trims (adding fuel) on the bank of cylinders with the leak.

Sometimes its as simple as re-torquing the header bolts after the car has been brought up to temperature (and back down again, or you'll probably burn yourself).

On the SRT8 Jeep it is recommended to use OEM gaskets and 'STAGE 8' locking bolts from these Stage 8, Locking Fasteners For Car Engines & Industrial Equipment - Call Us Now! 1.800.843.7836
as many had problems with loosening bolts. Should this be used with the Belanger also?
Claude

 

[Grant]

On the SRT8 Jeep it is recommended to use OEM gaskets and 'STAGE 8' locking bolts from these Stage 8, Locking Fasteners For Car Engines & Industrial Equipment - Call Us Now! 1.800.843.7836
as many had problems with loosening bolts. Should this be used with the Belanger also?
Claude

Claude, I haven't used the stage 8 bolts myself, but I've heard good things about them. From the look of these, they'd solve any issues with the bolts loosening. They look like an easier alternative to safety wire.

A more standard option might be to replace the bolts with studs and nuts. A second "lock nut" can be tightened down over the first. If the original nut loosens a bit due to thermal expansion, the second nut prevents it from vibrating loose. Of course, its still possible for the stud itself to vibrate loose. The stage 8 fasteners look like a permanent solution.

I've never had any luck with the standard "lock washers" sold in hardware stores, and of course the nylon in nylon lock nuts can't withstand the temperature of the headers (and I'm betting loctite can't either).

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

Usually upgraded hardware is a great idea but we have never had a problem with the bolts that Belanger supplies with all of the header systems.

 

[fergy]

Belanger system adds 70hp, only way to go, call Mark at Woodhouse to confirm details. Welcome to Woodhouse

Do you have a dyno before/after the Belanger install on the same dyno? I have Bellanger on my '06. Granted, different car, different motor, but there's no way it added 70HP. Dyno would be the proof if somebody has it.

Thanks!

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

You are right about that one, you MAYBE gained 15hp at the crank on an 06'. The 08' motor really responds to headers and that is why there is such a great gain.

Do you have a dyno before/after the Belanger install on the same dyno? I have Bellanger on my '06. Granted, different car, different motor, but there's no way it added 70HP. Dyno would be the proof if somebody has it.

Thanks!

 

[Kadeuces]

If the headers and exhaust are installed properly, you should have no CEL issues. Mine were installed by A&C Performance in Murrieta, CA by Todd and Mike at approx 1000 miles. Currently, I have 5664 miles and absolutely no CEL. I dyno'd at DC Performance a few months back with the Belanger setup at 558hp to the wheels. Two other stock 08s pulled 508 and 521hp. Thats a gain of 37hp-50hp!! The one thing I have to admit is that there is definitely a significant increase in drone with the Belanger set up at about 3000 rpms. Ive even got a few headaches after long drives. To answer the question asked earlier and to appease my wife and my headaches, I am planning on installing a corsa exhaust set up in the next few weeks. This should be way quieter at cruising speeds and a meaner growl at WOT. I will record video sound bytes of both so everyone can compare the difference. Will also do dyno testing eventually, although I dont expect much of a difference.

Kobi

[media]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r172/Khumidin/IMG_0044.jpg[/media]

 

[mcar00]

If the headers and exhaust are installed properly, you should have no CEL issues. Mine were installed by A&C Performance in Murrieta, CA by Todd and Mike at approx 1000 miles. Currently, I have 5664 miles and absolutely no CEL. I dyno'd at DC Performance a few months back with the Belanger setup at 558hp to the wheels. Two other stock 08s pulled 508 and 521hp. Thats a gain of 37hp-50hp!! The one thing I have to admit is that there is definitely a significant increase in drone with the Belanger set up at about 3000 rpms. Ive even got a few headaches after long drives. To answer the question asked earlier and to appease my wife and my headaches, I am planning on installing a corsa exhaust set up in the next few weeks. This should be way quieter at cruising speeds and a meaner growl at WOT. I will record video sound bytes of both so everyone can compare the difference. Will also do dyno testing eventually, although I dont expect much of a difference.

Kobi

[media]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r172/Khumidin/IMG_0044.jpg[/media]

A sound comparison of the two exhaust types would be awesome. Thanks.

 

[rcl4668]

Do you have a dyno before/after the Belanger install on the same dyno? I have Bellanger on my '06. Granted, different car, different motor, but there's no way it added 70HP. Dyno would be the proof if somebody has it.

Thanks!

Fergy --

Do a search using the words Belanger and Dyno or Comparison. I posted a thread a while back about this and Mark Jorgensen at Woodhouse actually some Mustang dynographs on a car with minimal break in miles (30 I believe?) that showed a gain of about 50 rwhp.

/Rich