12 psi boost with OEM internals?

sleeplezz_swe

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How close to the limit will I be with 12 psi boost on a Paxton kit? My engine is 100% stock inside (motor is being built this winter), I have larger injectors, AEM EMS etc etc. Stupid idea or will the engine hold up this summer? :) Ofcourse I know it depends on lots of things, hiw I drive the car and so on... But has anyone any good info I am glad to hear it!

Thank you!!

/Martin
 

plumcrazy

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best bet is to call a paxton tuner like DLM,DC,Woodhouse and UGR and talk to them.

what kind of fuel system ya got ?

my guess is BOOM, but its all in the tune.......
 

ILLSMOQ

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Yep, it's all in the tune.

I have a stock motor. I hit 10psi and sometimes 11 psi. I run race gas though and a conservative tune.....about 4000 miles on this setup. It's all in the tune. Mine makes about 700 at the wheels, get more aggressive with the tune and it should get closer to 750.
 

gb66gth

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KA-BLAMO! :rolaugh: is my guess unless you use less boot,or lower compression, or significantly upgraded internals (rods, crank, etc.)
 

KenricGTS

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700 to 725rwhp is the limit from my guess on a stock bottom end. Just wait and get a fully build forged bottom end and turn the boost up 15psi. When I had my DLM she made 900rwhp on pump with 12psi
 

ILLSMOQ

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I agree with the others, 700 rwhp is really about as high as you want to go unless you beef up the bottom end and the stock 8psi pully can get you there with the right tune. But if you have the ability build up the bottom end and set it up to run the higher boost.
 

ViperGMC

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I run 15psi on my Paxton and there are a ton of issues. All of the above mentioned and then a bunch more. There seems to be a threshold of 750HP that once you pass, your dependability goes way down. I have all upgraded internals and still blew my engine twice. The tune is sooooooo critical and soooooo temperamental, there is so little room for error. My car is a rocket but you pay the price in $$$$ but more important in reliability. I never had an issue when I was at 650RWHP, ever, for 25K miles. So unless you love to tinker, I would leave it where you are. If I wasn’t such a HP ****** and constantly biting off more than I could chew, I would have never gone passed 700HP. But I have an affliction and I do see a therapist. I have made significant progress though. Instead of overnighting all my parts and now get them sent 2nd day and soon I will be going to ground (well let's not get too crazy!!) :drive:
 

ILLSMOQ

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I have made significant progress though. Instead of overnighting all my parts and now get them sent 2nd day and soon I will be going to ground (well let's not get too crazy!!) :drive:


hahah so true:rolaugh:...I've already made the transition to 3 day ground.
 
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sleeplezz_swe

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Okey I thought it would be a bit stupid to try =) I think I´ll stay with lower boost this summer then. I´ll post my dynograph as soon as we are done.

Thank you!!

/Martin
 

MbnViper

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i would go 8psi maybe 9psi max !

YES ! its all in the tune but you have to be reasonable accelerating all day long, high revving, and not even cooling the car down before shutting it off, Etc = Boom

even a fully built engine will fail with the above combinations.

so actually its all in the Tune and Driver ! :)
 

KenricGTS

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I don't know my DLM car got run VERY hard at 900rwhp and no issues except for a leaking header. My friend Jim beats the ever living Sh*t out of his 900rwhp DLM and so far that I know of has not hurt the motor and he has like 15k 20k miles on her. I think he has destroyed 2 or 3 trannies and a couple of rear ends, but that is cause he drives hard!!! My point is if you build the engine with the best parts and have a great fuel system and tune I think the engine will live.
 

VENOMNS

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I don't know my DLM car got run VERY hard at 900rwhp and no issues except for a leaking header. My friend Jim beats the ever living Sh*t out of his 900rwhp DLM and so far that I know of has not hurt the motor and he has like 15k 20k miles on her. I think he has destroyed 2 or 3 trannies and a couple of rear ends, but that is cause he drives hard!!! My point is if you build the engine with the best parts and have a great fuel system and tune I think the engine will live.

I think that is just because DLM is just downright a doctor on these cars when it comes to paxtons... I remember Treynors first one.. that was one of the first monsters!!
 

Viper X

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My 04 now has 20k miles on a 900+ rwhp Paxton car and is living quite well. Conservative tune and enough fuel system to power 1500 rwhp..... and all forged internals, +++.

Most others have not been so lucky.

Dependability is now pretty good. I don't hesitate to drive it on long trips or in hot weather..... and I can be stuck in stop and go traffic at 100F for an hour - no issues.

Very long learning curve on this project though and lots of $$$$$.

Would I do this over again, NO WAY!

Stick with the basic kit, maybe add headers.

Tuning is critical and by all means, get an Air / Fuel gauge and mount it where you can see it at all times.

Dan
 
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Russ M

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Detonation is what will break the motor, your tune must be perfect and very rich because of the cast pistons. Make sure that your air/fuel is no leaner than 11:1 and make sure your timing is very, very safe.

Beyond that you should be capable of dealing with 12psi fairly easy. There are many Gen 2 vipers running more boost than that on stock motors, and some with cast pistons.
 

plumcrazy

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800rwhp + here, 7000 miles on this setup, car is south florida right now for minor (non engine related stuff) where i drove it to recently. also drove it home from South florida last year when it was done being built. its been driven in rain and even snow on the way south recently with NO problems at all.

My car runs flawlessly, a great tuner can make these run reliably all day long. regardless of weather/heat.
 

ViperGMC

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Viper X has it correct. Very long learning curve and plenty of $$$$$. Once you get it right, there is not an issue. Note that all those that have chimed in with over 800HP have upgraded internals. None of the tuners out there will do high boost without upgrading the internals at least not the good/honest ones. You have to be careful with high cylinder pressure with 12 psi on pump gas. The other thing that no one has really commented on is that once you go way up in HP, you need to start upgrading the downstream components, clutch, tranny, diff, drive shaft. KenricGTS notes that his friend destroyed 2 or 3 trannies, need more be said. So the motor is only part of the issue on increasing HP. I know you high HP guys will totally agree, it takes more money than you thought and longer than you thought to get it right. But I think Sleeplezz has some experience with high HP car by reading his bio so just be aware of wait you are in for. Talk to DLM, DC performance, RSI, West Coast Vipers and you will learn what is involved.
 
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sleeplezz_swe

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Viper X has it correct. Very long learning curve and plenty of $$$$$. Once you get it right, there is not an issue. Note that all those that have chimed in with over 800HP have upgraded internals. None of the tuners out there will do high boost without upgrading the internals at least not the good/honest ones. You have to be careful with high cylinder pressure with 12 psi on pump gas. The other thing that no one has really commented on is that once you go way up in HP, you need to start upgrading the downstream components, clutch, tranny, diff, drive shaft. KenricGTS notes that his friend destroyed 2 or 3 trannies, need more be said. So the motor is only part of the issue on increasing HP. I know you high HP guys will totally agree, it takes more money than you thought and longer than you thought to get it right. But I think Sleeplezz has some experience with high HP car by reading his bio so just be aware of wait you are in for. Talk to DLM, DC performance, RSI, West Coast Vipers and you will learn what is involved.

Very thoughtful notes! The enginge itself is just one part of a working puzzel, but I have a prepped tranny, clutch, diff etc, also got a brand new tranny in a box :D
 

RTTTTed

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On your setup the Intercooler is extremely important. Omce your compressor is spinning about 100,000rpm it really heats the air going into the engine. Your ic limits the boost you can use. Water/methanol injection would help as well.

You need upgraded rear axle shafts before you bust yours (I just replaced my 800hp axles with 1000hp lightweights). What clutch have you got? Stock clutch or slightly better one will protect your trans and diff because it'll have a slight amount of slippage. The stock clutch won't last long though.

Ted
 

Viper X

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Yes to the other changes per GMC's post,

For example; I'm running a Spec 3+ metallic clutch and PP with the OE flywheel, John Donato "built" trans, Unitrax built "Quaife" diff, Unitrax built upgraded CV 1/2 shafts, Moton suspension, Nitto Drag radials or Kumho Ecsta V700 rear tires.

On the intercooler, DC upgraded mine with a larger pump and giant additional "small radiator" type heat exchanger and my upgraded oil cooler is about the same size, looks like a small radiator. The OE oil cooler unit didn't cut it in conjunction with the Stryker heads. DC programmed the fan to come on sooner and we went with a 170 F T-stat and an oversized radiator. No cooling issues now.

Eventually, the 11.5 psi of max boost at 6500 rpm that I now run and a set of clogged "high flow" cats caused the B & B headers to leak gases (at their joints) into my engine compartment. I had to have them removed, brackets welded onto them to hold them together and then re-installed. The extra heat melted parts of my wiring harness - so it got replaced. I also replaced the cats with a set of OE "second" position cats re-worked to 3-inches.

I've had constant "drive-ability" issues with my AEM engine controller (and now have a spare) which are now mostly resolved. Driveability will never be as good as stock.

I could go on.

End result after lots of money spent is the car is a blast to drive on the right day (warm, smooth roads) - nothing on the road comes close ..... but for the price I paid in issues, towing, multiple trips to the tuner, break downs on club runs, car being out of service, not to mention the $$$$'s - I would not do this again.

Choose your tuner wisely.

Good luck,

Dan
 

RTTTTed

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Ouch, doesn't sound like your experience has been much fun yet.

Only reliablility issues with mine have been halfshafts and recently I found that my tune would change on it's own accord because of a couple loose connectors on my Vec. I found them myself and now I'm hoping "All's good."

I've got 42,000miles on my car and drive it at every opportunity.

Ted
 

black mamba1

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I am curious; I put down 512 rwhp on a Mustang Dyno and 528 on a Dyno Jet...so if I add a paxton, I should be around 760-778 rwhp by simply bolting a paxton on at about 9 psi boost. Will I need a modified fuel system for the stock paxton set up with that kind of power? Is the fuel psi directly proportional to the psi needed? Or rwhp related?
 

HI-NOS-Viper

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I am curious; I put down 512 rwhp on a Mustang Dyno and 528 on a Dyno Jet...so if I add a paxton, I should be around 760-778 rwhp by simply bolting a paxton on at about 9 psi boost. Will I need a modified fuel system for the stock paxton set up with that kind of power? Is the fuel psi directly proportional to the psi needed? Or rwhp related?
Way more than just psi my friend, but relevant to what rwhp you are running, what HP the fuel system is rated at. You are pushing it at more than 700rwhp and should get upgraded fuel components for sure. To go lean would turn that stout block into Swiss cheese. Being NA you are not as prone to fuel starvation but running boost turns it into a different ball game.
 

plumcrazy

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keith, boost is gonna depend on how well your heads flow. what do they flow ?

and your numbers would end up in the 850-900rwhp safely with a paxton. if tiurn UGR loose on it, expect 950-1000rwhp
 
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sleeplezz_swe

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We will go for around 8 psi until the engine i built. I am waiting for the car to be ready in the paintshop and then I will get it tuned asap. Clutch and drivetrain is already prepared for more boost. I think we will make some nice numbers with this boost aswell =)
 

Dan Cragin

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The basic Paxton kit works very well with the stock engine if tuned properly. We have done over 50 of these "stock" installs with very few issues. The key is in the tuning. Calibrating the production PCM and lowering intake air temperatures can improve power without sacrificing reliability.

At higher boost levels the production engine is just not suited. You can get away with this on some of the earlier "forged motors" as they can be detonated without immediate piston failure. The piston used in the SRT's have the ring high up on the piston for emissions and are cast. A poor tune or bad gas will break the ring lands and make a mess of your motor if boost levels are increased. With better pistons you can run more boost, but over time the production rods and bearings suffer under the load. More so if you track the car. With a production Paxton kit and some minor changes, you can safely track the car for 30 minute sessions.

The 650rwhp range seems to work well on the production engine. If you want the power to be more consistent and linear, we add colder plugs, a custom controller calibration, 170 thermostat, billet crankcase valve, bigger heat exchanger and recirculation pump.

When you add this much power you need to upgrade other parts of the car. This will make it safer and more reliable. At what we call level 1 (stock Paxton kit) we suggest adding our weld in roll bar. This stiffens the chassis and makes the car safer in a roll-over. Next we suggest a torque sensing gear driven posi unit in the rear end. These cars want to go sideways when on power; an upgraded differential will allow the car to go straight. The driveline wants to twist with added power and can be hard to shift; an improved shifter and higher durometer transmission mount are suggested at this power level.

For those who want to go to the next power level (about 800whp, with reliability) a SC specific engine, some fuel system changes and additional chassis and suspension upgrades are needed.
At this point the engine needs to come out. We rebuild the engine complete with a nitrated crankshaft, I beam rods, blower pistons, coated bearings, blueprinted oil pump, blower cam, adjustable timing gear and low bleed lifters. The block is studded and the heads are given a good valve job, better spring and retainers. The balancer and pulleys are changed. The fuel injectors are changed and the fuel pump gets a booster. A new clutch and flywheel is added. We upgrade the CV cages on the half shafts and change the shock absorbers (they tend to be too over sprung and under dampened for this power level.) Tires must be changed to a softer compound to be safe.

The next level (level 3) is more complicated, less reliable and will not pass emissions (900 plus rwhp). Billet main caps, new head castings and a complete new fuel system (tank to engine is required). A complete stand alone engine management system is needed, custom exhaust (headers are needed) and traction control are discussed. The transmission should be upgraded as well. These builds are very vehicle specific and have many variables. They run awesome, but are more prone to failure at this power level (price of admission).

We try to use a complete vehicle approach when it comes to upgrades. Customer expectations and vehicle use play a major role in the final build.

This is just my opinion and experience, others may have different suggestions.
 

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