1996 GTS - need more power, any suggestions?

[crazyspeed]

We keep going back to the same thing ALL those DYNO power numbers mean absolutely NOTHING .What does your above package trap in the quarter on stock tires .ANYONE can CLAIM anything as far as numbers go .You can not claim a trap speed either it does or doesnt.Flat out if your car is making the kind of number thats stated show me a trap speed of at least 136 plus in the quarter on stock tires .Years ago Lingenfelter made a few 550 Cu Strokers (we are talking hugh money ) and they NEVER made the power your stating with over 60 cubes more than your running.

..
Well said. I agree with everything you say. ...trap speed is everything. ( but a dyno is considered a valuable quantitative measurement for testing and development).

As you say, the proof is in the results.. ( unfortunately I am not a drag racer)

Iffn I try the 1320 in my 97 GTS, I will post the trap speed of my granny shifting effort ( but you'll never pry out my 60' time)

 

[1BADGTS]

..
Well said. I agree with everything you say. ...trap speed is everything. ( but a dyno is considered a valuable quantitative measurement for testing and development).

As you say, the proof is in the results.. ( unfortunately I am not a drag racer)

Iffn I try the 1320 in my 97 GTS, I will post the trap speed of my granny shifting effort ( but you'll never pry out my 60' time)

Totally agree if your ever at Englishtown NJ with the car let me know.If you want to truely see what it will do i can have Evan Smith take a try with it.

 

[crazyspeed]

Ps this man Morey is making over 50 hp and 75 lbs torque to the tire more than i ever made with a stock bottom end,no intake manifold work and alot less compression.That is a lot of power when we are talking nat asperated both engines running HYD cams.

Hey wait...Jeff Morys' numbers are at the flywheel....you have to subtract 15% for RWHP....
680 x 15% = 102

therefore 680 - 102 = 578 RWHP

AS I said in the prior post, 600 RWHP sounds high for NA.....BUT 575 RWHP at 9.8 compression is a big number.
This is all just bench racing , which I enjoy

AS you mentioned, trap speed is the best indicator, we're in agreement.

 

[1BADGTS]

Speed i understand what your saying BUT thats still ALOT of power (578rwhp )on that LOW compression ratio with no lightweight bottom end and no intake manifold work ,.A guy from NJ i raced against one year had a DYNO sheet claiming he was making 600 to the tire from his engine builder .Same day ,same track he was 6 mph slower than what my car was running .When i showed him my dyno sheet he had a *** reaction.Let me know if you ever run it as i have heard ALOT of things about those STRYKER Heads and are very curious as to what they are worth trap speed wise.

 

[crazyspeed]

Re: $8000 and 54 hours to install Stryker Heads, Cam and Headers??????
'Better yet run the car and get the trap speeds (seat of pants feel only goes so far ).A worked Nat asperated gen 2 should make over 550 to the tire and trap in the approx 130 mph range on stock tires.You also have to check your air fuel as a bigger cam will make the car dump fuel at idle-TOO RICH(WASH DOWN CYL WALLS) .Specifically unless DC has a program for the specific mods- cam your running (they may )you will need some sort of a DFI'


You posted your estimate as " over 550 " at the tire in a previous thread(above). ...so everything seems to be jake with the RWHP numbers. I believe your post in this previous thread was refering to a car with stock bottom end and with stock C.R. and with stock throttle bodies. Yep, those STRIKER heads are supposed to flow purty good with Jeff's secret cam.

 

[1BADGTS]

Re: $8000 and 54 hours to install Stryker Heads, Cam and Headers??????
'Better yet run the car and get the trap speeds (seat of pants feel only goes so far ).A worked Nat asperated gen 2 should make over 550 to the tire and trap in the approx 130 mph range on stock tires.You also have to check your air fuel as a bigger cam will make the car dump fuel at idle-TOO RICH(WASH DOWN CYL WALLS) .Specifically unless DC has a program for the specific mods- cam your running (they may )you will need some sort of a DFI'


You posted your estimate as " over 550 " at the tire in a previous thread(above). ...so everything seems to be jake with the RWHP numbers. I believe your post in this previous thread was refering to a car with stock bottom end and with stock C.R. and with stock throttle bodies. Yep, those STRIKER heads are supposed to flow purty good with Jeff's secret cam.

No because that estimate was predicated upon a totally worked engine(top and bottom done ) with a LARGE CAM (Crower stage 2 )not just a heads and cam .You need 70 mm throttle bodys some sort of intake manifold port and extrude hone,a nice compession boost (over 10.5 to 1 ), a lightweight blueprint and balenced rotating assembly and someone who can TUNE the whole package.All of the above add up a total power package that cost WAY over 12 grand to make the most power NA no matter the heads and cam flow numbers.

 

[1BADGTS]

If you read Muscle Mustang and Fast Ford Mag (JAN 2001 )that is my old GTS on the cover (the car is currently owned by EX Nat VCA pres Joe Houss )The mag compiled a then A list of the FASTEST TRUE STREET cars around to be involved in a shootout complete with the Mod build sheet ect.

 

[sirhc76]

Some good info here and a few of these I'm currently looking into. In case anyone wants it

GG heads mentioned but for comparison sake
Cylinder Head Set - 92-02 Viper - Heads & Valve Train - Roe Racing $2,659.80
Head Gasket $130.00
Trend Standard Pushrods $243.60
Trend Precision Pushrods $458.20
Jesel J2K Mohawk Shaft $1,649.95
T&D Shaft Rocker Arms $1,099.95
Harland Sharp 1.7 Ratio Roller Rockers $599.95
Adjustable Timing Chain $249.00
High Heat High Voltage Plug Wires GenI and II $169.95
VEC3 $1,079.95
Mopar Oil Filter - 1992-2008 Viper Engines - Maintenance - Roe Racing $6.09
Mobile 1 gallon $26 x 2 $52
1 gallon coolant $13.88 bought one today adjust to your liking
I use champion but hey
Bosch Platinum + 2 Spark Plugs - Ignition Upgrades - Roe Racing $73.66
For rough pricing
B&B 1&3/4" Headers $1,644.95
B&B 3" Header-Back (no cat) Exhaust $1,349.95
Front end gaskets, timing chain cover, water pump, oil filter adapter, front crank seal, $75 from Tator I just got them

Need the cam price thrown in and Im sure I missed a gasket. The numbers above are around $11,555.88. Someone mentioned 16 hours of labor @ around $100 an hour so drop in an additional $1600 when you play with the parts above to get your numbers.

 

[1BADGTS]

Some good info here and a few of these I'm currently looking into. In case anyone wants it

GG heads mentioned but for comparison sake
Cylinder Head Set - 92-02 Viper - Heads & Valve Train - Roe Racing $2,659.80
Head Gasket $130.00
Trend Standard Pushrods $243.60
Trend Precision Pushrods $458.20
Jesel J2K Mohawk Shaft $1,649.95
T&D Shaft Rocker Arms $1,099.95
Harland Sharp 1.7 Ratio Roller Rockers $599.95
Adjustable Timing Chain $249.00
High Heat High Voltage Plug Wires GenI and II $169.95
VEC3 $1,079.95
Mopar Oil Filter - 1992-2008 Viper Engines - Maintenance - Roe Racing $6.09
Mobile 1 gallon $26 x 2 $52
1 gallon coolant $13.88 bought one today adjust to your liking
I use champion but hey
Bosch Platinum + 2 Spark Plugs - Ignition Upgrades - Roe Racing $73.66
For rough pricing
B&B 1&3/4" Headers $1,644.95
B&B 3" Header-Back (no cat) Exhaust $1,349.95
Front end gaskets, timing chain cover, water pump, oil filter adapter, front crank seal, $75 from Tator I just got them

Need the cam price thrown in and Im sure I missed a gasket. The numbers above are around $11,555.88. Someone mentioned 16 hours of labor @ around $100 an hour so drop in an additional $1600 when you play with the parts above to get your numbers.

Your above parts list still INCOMPLETE to do the job CORRECTLY .MISSING items include a CAMSHAFT =750 ,70 MM THROTTLE BODYS =500 INTAKE MANIFOLD WORK= 500-750, some sort of DFI to control fuel and spark 1100 Which when add up now brings the COMPLETE JOB TO 15000.(PLUS OF COURSE STATE SALES TAX.)

 

[1BADGTS]

ps SORRY you had the VEC thrown in case being your at 14000.00 plus tax and labor (i did not add labor in before )to a GRAND TOTAL OF 15600 plus state tax (approx 5-7%).I think now everyone can basically see when EVERYTHING that needed to do this job in the correct manner is PUT DOWN ON PAPER (esp the forgotton incidentals that are needed to make power)what it TRUELT COST.Keep in mind when have not touched the bottom end here ,Nor have we addressed rear end gears of the cooling ststem at all.

 

[plumcrazy]

all thats not gonna be installed for 1600 bucks

 

[sirhc76]

Again my links and numbers were not to prove if anyone is right or wrong it’s for reference.

Look back through my post and notice that the sum of all this is $11,555.88 and I included several parts twice. This was done to give people options, Jesel or trend, Standard or precision and so on.

Please also read the following
Need the cam price thrown in and Im sure I missed a gasket. The numbers above are around $11,555.88. Someone mentioned 16 hours of labor @ around $100 an hour so drop in an additional $1600 when you play with the parts above to get your numbers.

all thats not gonna be installed for 1600 bucks

PS if you add the forgotten incidentials plugs, coolant ,Mobil 1, filters (200) Gaskets 750 Tax approx 600-700 and a realistic labor cost (most shops get at least 100 per hour and this complete with dyno tuning has to be at least a 16 hour job)1600 you can add an easy 2200 to that 10 grand price.

To Petty’s point most of this can be done by an average mechanic and if I was going to do this all at one time I'm sure I could get better pricing. I'm far from a mechanic but I'm not afraid to pick up a wrench. The beauty of this board is the info is all here. It's fricking bolts and torque values not Atrioventricular valve surgery. Sales tax well I won’t go into out of state taxes on a public forum. Labor isn’t taxed if I recall?

Now for the real kicker if anyone actually wants to see the math, the format is messy so I have it in word and and excel with all variations because I was bored.

Cylinder Head Set - 92-02 Viper - Heads & Valve Train - Roe Racing $2,659.80
Head Gasket $130.00
Trend Precision Pushrods $458.20
T&D Shaft Rocker Arms $1,099.95
Adjustable Timing Chain $249.00
High Heat High Voltage Plug Wires GenI and II $169.95
VEC3 $1,079.95
Mopar Oil Filter - 1992-2008 Viper Engines - Maintenance - Roe Racing $6.09
Bosch Platinum + 2 Spark Plugs - Ignition Upgrades - Roe Racing $73.66
B&B 1&3/4" Headers $1,644.95
B&B 3" Header-Back (no cat) Exhaust $1,349.95
Mobile 2 gallons $52
1 gallon coolant $13.88
timing chain cover, water pump, oil filter adapter, front crank seal $75
INTAKE MANIFOLD WORK $750.00
CAMSHAFT $750
70 MM THROTTLE BODYS alans as well $598

Sub Total $11,160.38

 

[hardtop]

Roe heads will not make the 550 rwhp.

 

[ViperTony]

If value, i.e. cheap, is the goal then choosing a set of lesser-flowing heads makes sense. Mind you, GG heads flow much better than Roe's and the cost savings is not enough to justify the sacrifice in performance. Out of all the things to skimp on, it shouldn't be the heads. As others have already stated, it all depends on your goals. I think with the mods listed for an incomplete NA build (no bottom end, fuel system, intake, etc.) 600rwhp is not going to happen on '96. I think when the money is spent and dyno tuning complete you will be very disappointed with the numbers.

 

[sirhc76]

I’ll continue to stir the *** for a little while longer. Roe lists the flow numbers next to the pricing, so it’s obvious they don’t flow what the GG heads would. I shouldn’t have thrown the Roe heads into the mix as it obviously caused confusion. What I listed are parts with Vendor supplied pricing to support/refute a 10k price. Several ballpark figures were flying around that could potentially cause more confusion all though some were spot on.

I don’t have a link to display GG heads pricing or I would have done that. Pull the Roe heads, cost and link, then add in your favorite vendors heads. It appears the price for GG heads would be 4k so take all the numbers I listed choose your parts for the build and play away, it’s like Legos. Make sure that when you price your intended build your choose the options that best fit your build, that was the reason I listed a few options such as Jesel, Trend Precision and so on.

 

[SquadX]

I am in the process of doing my bottom end and other things but so far, I 've spent over 3000 in parts alone for the bottom end and thats with using stock forge pistons. Not to mention the 4000 in labor for the blueprint and balance, assembly. So 7000l plus for bottom end work and thats for an engine built to handle 800rwhp. This includes alot of shopping around for the best price on parts but still using good stuff. If I add the amount I spent on my heads alone, which, I assume will flow sub par to GGs, I have about 5k at least (upgraded parts and machine work).

Now to remove/install the engine is another 2k (which I am installing a new stock clutch (180) and light weight flywheel (400) because its free labor).

My engine work in no intake man. work or TBs (neither will help with the way my heads are being worked).

As 1badgts and many others have said, things add up and its alot of the little things you dont account for, at least I didnt. Rod bearings, main bearings, all the gaskets, valve guides, stem seals, stainless steel valves, springs.... Do it once and be done with it. The worst thing would be to go thur an engine build and later decide that you should have gone with part x over part y for whatever reason.

I feel/felt during this whole build that I was wasting alot of money but for have a engine to handle FI (which is future plans) because the labor involved is a pretty penny, alot more then the parts (depending on how much power you plan on running). My engine builder thought my something was wrong with my engine because I wanted to do a piston swap. I told him my engine was perfect but he didnt believe me and kept stating that something must be wrong with your engine to do just a piston swap. Well after the engine was disassemb. and inspected, he calls me and says "so the only reason you bought you engine to me was for a piston swap, we inspected the engine and...well...its perfect." He couldnt image that I was paying so much money to do just a piston swap. So yes, it is costly but as stated, if your going to run near 550 rwhp, spend the money once and do it right because if my engine was damaged or "off" it would of cost alot more in labor and I am sure parts.

 

[1BADGTS]

There is an old racers adage =SPEED COSTS MONEY.IN THIS CASE YOU GET WHAT YOY PAY FOR.If you think your getting a top line COMPLETE set of heads for 2600 GOD BLESS .If you want to wrench it all your self to save money thats your business In accordinance if you think you can TUNE the car (dial in the air fuel and spark ) on the dyno more power to you.A word to the wise (from a guy thats been there with heavily MODDED VIPERS since 1996)if something as simple as a ROCKER ARM is not installed or adjusted correctly (depending on the brand you use ) that few grand you TRIED to save is going to HAUNT YOU BIG TIME.

 

[1BADGTS]

If value, i.e. cheap, is the goal then choosing a set of lesser-flowing heads makes sense. Mind you, GG heads flow much better than Roe's and the cost savings is not enough to justify the sacrifice in performance. Out of all the things to skimp on, it shouldn't be the heads. As others have already stated, it all depends on your goals. I think with the mods listed for an incomplete NA build (no bottom end, fuel system, intake, etc.) 600rwhp is not going to happen on '96. I think when the money is spent and dyno tuning complete you will be very disappointed with the numbers.

Exactly ,however for some reason here i believe the horsepower numbers will be the least of their problems .If there is an issue who ever sold them the part or parts will blame the problem on the install.

 

[plumcrazy]

arent the roe heads just slightly ported and NO new valves or guides (keeping junk oem parts in them) ? i think thats the way they used to be.

 

[sirhc76]

There is an old racers adage =SPEED COSTS MONEY.IN THIS CASE YOU GET WHAT YOY PAY FOR.If you think your getting a top line COMPLETE set of heads for 2600 GOD BLESS .If you want to wrench it all your self to save money thats your business In accordinance if you think you can TUNE the car (dial in the air fuel and spark ) on the dyno more power to you.A word to the wise (from a guy thats been there with heavily MODDED VIPERS since 1996)if something as simple as a ROCKER ARM is not installed or adjusted correctly (depending on the brand you use ) that few grand you TRIED to save is going to HAUNT YOU BIG TIME.

AGREED

I wouldn’t TUNE myself, fortunately I have a few in my area who can. Also If speed and 1/4 mile times were my only mission I wouldn’t start with a platform like a VIPER.

Thanks for your insight, it appears you have been doing this for some time your input is invaluable. Again my pricing and components were all based on the 10K statement listed in the beginning of this tread. Safe to say that If I wanted to spend that kind of money I would start with a car that already included a built motor. With prices the way they are now it would be a much better avenue.

From what I have seen there is a stigma that a viper is not a normal car when work is required. The motor has pistons, cam, crank, valves, timing chain, bearings and most of the components that motors have. Why would working on it be any different compared to another vehicle, price considered. Had I not installed rockers correctly on the first 351 Windsor I rebuild from a Chilton manual would the same thing have occured? Again I'm not a mechanic just willing to work on my own stuff to an extent. I also wasn't a pilot at the age of 9 yet logged more hours a year in the right seat of my grandfathers 172 and 310 than most "pilots" log. It was common for me to shoot an approach and land at DFW when I was 12 yes 12. I'm not taking anything away from a true builder, it’s a art that they have perfected from being there and doing it. Safe to say had they not tried it on their own the first time they wouldn’t be doing it now.

Now that we are here I’m done

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[1BADGTS]

AGREED

I wouldn’t TUNE myself, fortunately I have a few in my area who can. Also If speed and 1/4 mile times were my only mission I wouldn’t start with a platform like a VIPER.

Thanks for your insight, it appears you have been doing this for some time your input is invaluable. Again my pricing and components were all based on the 10K statement listed in the beginning of this tread. Safe to say that If I wanted to spend that kind of money I would start with a car that already included a built motor. With prices the way they are now it would be a much better avenue.

From what I have seen there is a stigma that a viper is not a normal car when work is required. The motor has pistons, cam, crank, valves, timing chain, bearings and most of the components that motors have. Why would working on it be any different compared to another vehicle, price considered. Had I not installed rockers correctly on the first 351 Windsor I rebuild from a Chilton manual would the same thing have occured? Again I'm not a mechanic just willing to work on my own stuff to an extent. I also wasn't a pilot at the age of 9 yet logged more hours a year in the right seat of my grandfathers 172 and 310 than most "pilots" log. It was common for me to shoot an approach and land at DFW when I was 12 yes 12. I'm not taking anything away from a true builder, it’s a art that they have perfected from being there and doing it. Safe to say had they not tried it on their own the first time they wouldn’t be doing it now.

Now that we are here I’m done

You must be registered for see images

The differences in the above being cost of parts and KNOWING the combination of parts to use along with the certain nuiances of assembling them.

 

[1BADGTS]

arent the roe heads just slightly ported and NO new valves or guides (keeping junk oem parts in them) ? i think thats the way they used to be.

Plum if you reverse cost a TOP LINE set of heads you have approx 600-700 dollars alone for top quality oversized ss valves .You have approx 500 dollars for good ,springs, retainers ,keepers.Thats parts now you have the labor of a valve job(seats,new guides for the oversized valves seals ect ),full port,polish and flow .Since these guys are not changing pistons to up the compression they have to get the head resurfaced and on top of that you have assembly.You have at least 1300-1400 bucks in parts plus approx 12 hours in labor (by a person that knows how to use a flowbench ect )so in the above case you know EXACTLY what your getting for 2500.

 

[1BADGTS]

I am in the process of doing my bottom end and other things but so far, I 've spent over 3000 in parts alone for the bottom end and thats with using stock forge pistons. Not to mention the 4000 in labor for the blueprint and balance, assembly. So 7000l plus for bottom end work and thats for an engine built to handle 800rwhp. This includes alot of shopping around for the best price on parts but still using good stuff. If I add the amount I spent on my heads alone, which, I assume will flow sub par to GGs, I have about 5k at least (upgraded parts and machine work).

Now to remove/install the engine is another 2k (which I am installing a new stock clutch (180) and light weight flywheel (400) because its free labor).

My engine work in no intake man. work or TBs (neither will help with the way my heads are being worked).

As 1badgts and many others have said, things add up and its alot of the little things you dont account for, at least I didnt. Rod bearings, main bearings, all the gaskets, valve guides, stem seals, stainless steel valves, springs.... Do it once and be done with it. The worst thing would be to go thur an engine build and later decide that you should have gone with part x over part y for whatever reason.

I feel/felt during this whole build that I was wasting alot of money but for have a engine to handle FI (which is future plans) because the labor involved is a pretty penny, alot more then the parts (depending on how much power you plan on running). My engine builder thought my something was wrong with my engine because I wanted to do a piston swap. I told him my engine was perfect but he didnt believe me and kept stating that something must be wrong with your engine to do just a piston swap. Well after the engine was disassemb. and inspected, he calls me and says "so the only reason you bought you engine to me was for a piston swap, we inspected the engine and...well...its perfect." He couldnt image that I was paying so much money to do just a piston swap. So yes, it is costly but as stated, if your going to run near 550 rwhp, spend the money once and do it right because if my engine was damaged or "off" it would of cost alot more in labor and I am sure parts.

Smart move .In the words of Nick at Modern (who has done MANY A VIPER ENGINE )Cheap and Viper do not go together.

 

[1BADGTS]

Squad you brought up another point i completely forgot about in the fact that anyone upping the power to over 600 and using a stock clutch with over 15000 miles on it had better be prepared to step up for a new cluth assembly.

 

[plumcrazy]

im over 800rwhp on a stock clutch but i NEVER track it. just not my thing....but if anyone tracks it at any kind of power like 600+ a clutch is most likely...true !

 

[1BADGTS]

im over 800rwhp on a stock clutch but i NEVER track it. just not my thing....but if anyone tracks it at any kind of power like 600+ a clutch is most likely...true !

Definately alot of these guys are starting with a clutchs that have 20000 plus miles before they mod and you know what that means

 

[1BADGTS]

Plum this is an interesting thread and ironically the EXACT reason alot of top line builders (DLM )do not DUE MAIL ORDER PARTS .Years ago when i set up the test of Dan Blacks DLM car with the mag guys i had the privilege of speaking with Doug directly .(GREAT GUY who definately knows his stuff and takes car of his customers )

 

[SquadX]

Plum this is an interesting thread and ironically the EXACT reason alot of top line builders (DLM )do not DUE MAIL ORDER PARTS .Years ago when i set up the test of Dan Blacks DLM car with the mag guys i had the privilege of speaking with Doug directly .(GREAT GUY who definately knows his stuff and takes car of his customers )

Again, the knowledge 1BADGTS is stating is beyond true. Experiencing this first hand, its amazing how many non-factory spec size parts you need when building an engine rebuild. Many parts used in rebuilds are non-viper specific. Such has floating assemb. used chevy parts wirst pins, bearing (dont quote me on the term or names) but point is you can not just walk into napa or call up summit and get parts in most cases. The more dramatic the build, the more customized parts and that equals more money. If I had the money, I would shoot for all motor but for about half you can have more power and reliable close to that of an NA (as long as you use a well known builder).

Someone correct me where I am wrong but just giving my experience as I am going through this long process and Whatever price you usually get quoted will be less then your out the door price.

1BADGTS I actually spoke with you some time ago about my build and you gave me great advice, thanks. Also I never really thought about the rwhp compared to 1/4 times until you mentioned it. Alot of guys claim 600 rwhp but dont tap near 130-131 in the 1/4. Pretty funny unless there's is peak hp and really nothing under the curve were it counts.

 

[1BADGTS]

Again, the knowledge 1BADGTS is stating is beyond true. Experiencing this first hand, its amazing how many non-factory spec size parts you need when building an engine rebuild. Many parts used in rebuilds are non-viper specific. Such has floating assemb. used chevy parts wirst pins, bearing (dont quote me on the term or names) but point is you can not just walk into napa or call up summit and get parts in most cases. The more dramatic the build, the more customized parts and that equals more money. If I had the money, I would shoot for all motor but for about half you can have more power and reliable close to that of an NA (as long as you use a well known builder).

Someone correct me where I am wrong but just giving my experience as I am going through this long process and Whatever price you usually get quoted will be less then your out the door price.

1BADGTS I actually spoke with you some time ago about my build and you gave me great advice, thanks. Also I never really thought about the rwhp compared to 1/4 times until you mentioned it. Alot of guys claim 600 rwhp but dont tap near 130-131 in the 1/4. Pretty funny unless there's is peak hp and really nothing under the curve were it counts.

I am truely glad i was able to help (that is one of the main focus of these boards).I can not say it strongly enough that someone trying to put together a VIPER top end MAIL ORDER perf package ON A VERY LIMITED BUDGET SHOULD wait UNTILL THEY HAVE THE FUNDS TO DO THE JOB properly using an experienced VIPER engine builder..A valvetrain part like a rocker can take down an entire engine.(Years ago my friend skimped and went NON SHAFTMOUNT with his rockers because the shaftmounts were double the price.He wound up dropping a valve and incrediably the guy selling him the mail order CRAP told him if he was going to run the car that hard he should have had the sense to go T&D in the first place.The 600 dollars he tried to save now just cost him over 15 grand.When your on a limited budget and someone is selling something you have to know what you can get away with and what not.)

 

[1BADGTS]

As far a 600RWHP if i had a dollar for every guy i ever raced (LOL)who had a 600 RWHP dyno sheet (motor alone )yet trapped 6 mph LESS than my car was running =for get about it.Almost every possible thing was done to my motor to make power (short of a Large Stroker, SOLID CAM ,DRY SUMPED GTSR engine) and i truely NEVER made more than around 550- 570 ish to the tire (depending on what cam Nick had in the car )