250 miles in on my Viper - a few things I don't like...

[ViperSmith]

The fact that you would not own nor even consider an earlier Viper proves unequivocally that you certainly do not get what it means to own a "Viper". The soul of the car is what *IS* lost when force-feeding comfort at the expense of performance. The Gen-5 performs, yes... BARELY better than its predecessors, and not up to the past-set bar in some respects, with 7 years more development. It boasts a higher price tag and more comforts. A true Viper approach would be all-out performance, and whatever is left over goes towards comfort. THAT is what it means to be a Viper owner... or at least it used to. If this new car was a 750HP street GTS-R at 100K base with 50K in comfort upgrades as a "SRT/GTS" package layout, we would not be having this conversation.

The thing is, that ALL of the newer Chrysler products have really nice interiors and all of these comforts and then some. The Viper BETTER have them as well considering that SRT tacked on an upcharge that could nearly swallow a new 300 SRT8 just for these "comforts" alone, which also includes all of the same and then some! Something is wrong with the "Viper" picture when you can add 50K+ for electronics, seats, colors, carbon, brakes, and wheels... and the car didnt actually get any faster to speak of or more powerful in the process. You are not better than anyone else because you got more comfort for the price of a second car.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for certain technologies. I have been known to push the limits of tech on everything I can get my developmental hands into, and at spare no expense price points at that. However, I would never slight those with less technology simply because they choose not to have it, and that is because I get what it means to own a Viper.

Chrysler could only move so many Vipers with the "bare bones" interior of previous generations. Perhaps that is why it died in 2010. The die hards, god bless them, can't keep a single model alive in sales.

The market simply demands more luxuries. Just viewing this site it has pulled plenty more into the fold, it has seemingly worked so far. Time will tell if it does overall.

Marginally faster than the Gen IV - sure. But much better overall in the inside I think most can attest to.

I'd venture to guess SRT did the market research that dictated people would much rather have their interior options to tack on rather than performance options. Investment simply follows the cash. If there was such demand for the bare bones, there are still unsold Gen IV sitting on lots unsold, so - why is that the case?

 

[Viper98912]

Annnnnnnnnnd that's the simple fact you're missing. If you look around this forum, it's surrounded by people who love this car, regardless of their gen, background, societal status, new/used, net worth, previous cars, etc. You came on here with a straight forward post, UNTIL you decided to show your true self and bash other people, on a personal level. Unfortunately you will never get it, but that's ok, because you are probably like this with everything else in your real life. You're that guy that everyone talks about, you're that guy that many people avoid, you're that guy that many people don't or can't associate with. And you just don't know it or just don't see it. But that's ok, because to you, you live your life as normal, and that's what really matters, the first person point of view. I wish you the best, because I'd hate to be you.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Chrysler could only move so many Vipers with the "bare bones" interior of previous generations. Perhaps that is why it died in 2010. The die hards, god bless them, can't keep a single model alive in sales.

The market simply demands more luxuries. Just viewing this site it has pulled plenty more into the fold, it has seemingly worked so far. Time will tell if it does overall.

Marginally faster than the Gen IV - sure. But much better overall in the inside I think most can attest to.

I'd venture to guess SRT did the market research that dictated people would much rather have their interior options to tack on rather than performance options. Investment simply follows the cash. If there was such demand for the bare bones, there are still unsold Gen IV sitting on lots unsold, so - why is that the case?

You are missing the point. Even in my last line, I have NOTHING against luxuries- if you want them, have at it. I don't mind in the least, and would choose them myself. However, talking down to the owners of previous generations because they may not want them and choose to stick with the "raw" viper is ridiculous, especially considering that you get taken to the bank laughably for those "luxuries". To make matters worse, trying to say that the older cars were "misguided" is even more laughable. The Viper was SUPPOSED to be what it was. If the market evolves, it evolves- but it does not change what it was in the past relative to that time.

 

[Ev1E9]

You are missing the point. Even in my last line, I have NOTHING against luxuries- if you want them, have at it. I don't mind in the least, and would choose them myself. However, talking down to the owners of previous generations because they may not want them and choose to stick with the "raw" viper is ridiculous, especially considering that you get taken to the bank laughably for those "luxuries". To make matters worse, trying to say that the older cars were "misguided" is even more laughable. The Viper was SUPPOSED to be what it was. If the market evolves, it evolves- but it does not change what it was in the past relative to that time.

But isn't that what the SRT is supposed to be...a bare-bones performance machine? It's base price isn't much more than the GEN IV, and its performance IS marginally better than the previous gen. You don't have to swallow all the options if you don't want them.

Dan, Viper performance is your specialty. In your opinion, where did SRT go wrong, and what should they do next? Is 700hp, N/A, feasible without sacrificing reliability? Many believe a DCT is the answer, but will it merely add weight and expense? Just curious.

 

[ViperSmith]

You are missing the point. Even in my last line, I have NOTHING against luxuries- if you want them, have at it. I don't mind in the least, and would choose them myself. However, talking down to the owners of previous generations because they may not want them and choose to stick with the "raw" viper is ridiculous, especially considering that you get taken to the bank laughably for those "luxuries". To make matters worse, trying to say that the older cars were "misguided" is even more laughable. The Viper was SUPPOSED to be what it was. If the market evolves, it evolves- but it does not change what it was in the past relative to that time.

You clearly have no idea who you are responding to or can't read what I actually wrote.

A swing and a miss with your rant.

 

[Viper Specialty]

But isn't that what the SRT is supposed to be...a bare-bones performance machine? It's base price isn't much more than the GEN IV, and its performance IS marginally better than the previous gen. You don't have to swallow all the options if you don't want them.

Dan, Viper performance is your specialty. In your opinion, where did SRT go wrong, and what should they do next? Is 700hp, N/A, feasible without sacrificing reliability? Many believe a DCT is the answer, but it merely add weight and expense? Just curious.

Yes, the SRT version is just that, and thats fine. I already said, even *I* would get the GTS version if any. However, my point was that I would not talk down to previous Gen-1/2/3/4 or G5 SRT owners if I did simply because they dont have the same gizmos that I do. I would not say that the previous generations are "not worth buying" as I know first hand that is flat out nonsense.

If you want my honest opinion, they went wrong by not having enough power, and made the car look too much like a Gen-2. They went with a "safe" body style rather than pushing it forward or going more extreme like the GTS-R is. with 750HP and a GTS-R-like body, they could have put a price of 125K base + tech options without blinking, taken back the recognition with regard to power, and had a body exotic enough to pull new people and push forward, while similar enough to the Gen-2 to appease those buyers.

 

[Viper Specialty]

You clearly have no idea who you are responding to or can't read what I actually wrote.

A swing and a miss with your rant.

Uh, I did read what you wrote, and I was responding to YOU, about my point in the post YOU quoted, the point which YOU missed, and YOU responded to.

I was trying to get to the point of what I was originally saying, which was going in a different direction than you chose to take it. Your post was deflecting what everyone was getting at on the last page.

 

[ViperSmith]

Uh, I did read what you wrote, and I was responding to YOU, while stating my point about the other guy, which YOU missed.

You are the one who clearly is lost my friend.

If you want to claim you were talking about PeerBlock, perhaps you should have added context in your reply.

Because, I have yet to say a single negative word about the previous generations.

If pointing out that the "bare bones" interior of previous generations simply doesn't fly in 2013 is "disrespectful" - well I don't have much else to say.

 

[Steve M]

Chrysler could only move so many Vipers with the "bare bones" interior of previous generations. Perhaps that is why it died in 2010.

You might be taking that one a step too far...I'd place the blame for the Viper's demise on the economy at the time and Chrysler falling on its face before I'd go pointing to the interior.

 

[ViperSmith]

You might be taking that one a step too far...I'd place the blame for the Viper's demise on the economy at the time and Chrysler falling on its face before I'd go pointing to the interior.

Possibly so, why I said perhaps

I don't think it helped, but I think there were a lot of factors. The Viper has always been a niche vehicle. I think now it will have a broader appeal. But then again, thats when the ZR1 hit the streets and it sold rather well (the 1200 car a year range).

Personally, the Gen III/IV didn't speak to me. I think more creature comforts it may have. (Personally, same is true of the Corvette, its interior is just dated for the C6). I suspect I am not alone. The upgraded interior will pull a lot more people into the mix. Seems to have so far. In the end, we could all be wrong.

I find my Gen V to be plenty "raw" - it is a blast to drive. It is loud and obnoxious. I love it.

I don't see why so many with previous generations are getting their feelings hurt - it isn't like their car has suddenly changed. Why you fell in love with the car is still sitting in your garage. I think the car has changed for the better, we will see if the market agrees in the end. To me, even though I've never owned one, it hits on what the "Viper meant" from the beginning.

Anyone could jump in the new SLS and run low 3.x 0-60 times their first run. Not many can jump in a new Viper and break 4 seconds even after a few. It isn't a forgiving car, that is what makes it fun.

 

[SRTviper]

The viper got axed because Chrysler wasn't going to talk about making a 100k halo car that made them barely any money and in some cases lost them money when at the same time they were fighting in congress for the future of the company to keep it from going bankrupt.

It has been said in a few interviews as to why the viper got axed. But it isn't a step too far to say why the viper was on the chopping block and why it didn't make much money because as the value per dollar isn't there. A zo6/zo7 has better performance and interior for the same price not counting ACR editions. And even with the ACR edition the performance is only marginally better and at that point people rather own the zr1 because of its COMFORT!!!.

The viper was just a good track rat car, it is trying to evolve past that now.

 

[Steve M]

Just take a look at ZR1 production numbers that point to the same story:

2009 - 1,415 built
2010 - 1,577 built
2011 - 806 built
2012 - 404 built
2013 - 337 built so far

Even comfort can't keep a production line going when you are looking at $100,000+ cars in a poor economy. What's the first thing that goes out the window when poop hits the fan? Non-practical, high performance cars (and a ZR1 is by far more practical than a Viper). I find it amazing the Viper has returned at all...it'll be interesting to see how many are built and how many are actually sold. All indications point to many sitting on showroom floors with no buyers, although some of that can be blamed on dealer markups.

 

[ViperSmith]

Just take a look at ZR1 production numbers that point to the same story:

2009 - 1,415 built
2010 - 1,577 built
2011 - 806 built
2012 - 404 built
2013 - 337 built so far

Even comfort can't keep a production line going when you are looking at $100,000+ cars in a poor economy. What's the first thing that goes out the window when poop hits the fan? Non-practical, high performance cars (and a ZR1 is by far more practical than a Viper). I find it amazing the Viper has returned at all...it'll be interesting to see how many are built and how many are actually sold. All indications point to many sitting on showroom floors with no buyers, although some of that can be blamed on dealer markups.

I know they slashed the Z06 numbers for 09/10, did those ever recover as well?

I think in the return the dealer network is the weak link (well, once the production issues get sorted LOL)

It will be curious to see what registration numbers look like for June. I think selling 250 through May is decent, but hopefully that ticks up a good bit now that custom orders are shipping well, finally.

 

[SRTviper]

Just take a look at ZR1 production numbers that point to the same story:

2009 - 1,415 built
2010 - 1,577 built
2011 - 806 built
2012 - 404 built
2013 - 337 built so far

Even comfort can't keep a production line going when you are looking at $100,000+ cars in a poor economy. What's the first thing that goes out the window when poop hits the fan? Non-practical, high performance cars (and a ZR1 is by far more practical than a Viper). I find it amazing the Viper has returned at all...it'll be interesting to see how many are built and how many are actually sold. All indications point to many sitting on showroom floors with no buyers, although some of that can be blamed on dealer markups.

Yea but the financials of GM and chrysler are completely different. GM has a lot more money and has a lot better manufacturing. That is why they can revolutionize the c7 and charge only 1400 more for it while viper does a camouflage of an evolution and charges 40k more for it.

 

[PeerBlock]

I've invested far more in new Vipers than you have pal. Anyway, one thing has been certainly proven here.
You can buy a Viper, but you can't buy class.

I appreciate that you're not just saying this but actually displaying a lack of class.

I am going to give you a pass since you are new... but you REALLY need to figure out who you are talking to before you start typing. I have forgotten more about Vipers since my morning coffee than you will ever learn. You are a NEW Viper owner, and are trying to explain how the world works to decade long+ Viper owners, many of whom have pumped FAR more money into this market than you, and have lived the experience. You should take a seat and stop talking.

All you are doing is proving exactly what many of us feared with the new type of "owner" this car is going to draw. God help us.

How about I give you a pass since you are old?

You really need to figure out that the car you choose to buy does not define you, and if it does, you are pathetic. The Viper is but one of many cars that I own and have owned. It's a great vehicle, but I wouldn't deem myself some "viper expert" because I owned an older version and not the newest one.

This is a forum; we're all here to talk but you can feel free to stop whining whenever it's convenient.

You might be taking that one a step too far...I'd place the blame for the Viper's demise on the economy at the time and Chrysler falling on its face before I'd go pointing to the interior.

The economic implosion that culminated in 2009 would probably be the biggest contributor to the Viper going away; GM had to shed several of its brands altogether. I'm glad that Chrysler took the opportunity to bring the viper back, arguably in a time when the economy still *****.

 

[VCA Forum Staff]

Peerblock....You have a PM.

 

[BlackSnake99]

Dan Lesser for President.

 

[Viper Specialty]

If you want to claim you were talking about PeerBlock, perhaps you should have added context in your reply.

If I want to "Claim" I was talking about PeerBlock? Quick lesson in the internet: DON'T QUOTE SOMEONE IF YOU INTEND TO DERAIL THE CONTEXT OF WHAT THEY SAID.

This isnt rocket science.

 

[Viper Specialty]

How about I give you a pass since you are old?

You really need to figure out that the car you choose to buy does not define you, and if it does, you are pathetic. The Viper is but one of many cars that I own and have owned. It's a great vehicle, but I wouldn't deem myself some "viper expert" because I owned an older version and not the newest one.

This is a forum; we're all here to talk but you can feel free to stop whining whenever it's convenient.

Man... the more you type, the more arrogantly you dig yourself into an ignorant hole. I would suggest you stop before you are never able to climb back out.

I can deduce from your "old" comment that you are surely quite young, as if I did not gather that from your posting style and lack of understanding as to what some of us are trying to express. However, I hate to rain on your parade, but I can assure you that I am not old... not even in the remote context of the word. Anyone who knows me personally is laughing at you right now. Don't even try to pull the "Look what I did at a young age" card on a board full of entrepreneurs and business people, you will lose, as there is always someone better.

Where was it that I claimed to be a "Viper Expert" because I owned an older version? I don't recall. You see, I claim to be a "Viper Expert" because I have owned and do own multiple. Because I have been designing parts and packages for them for over a decade. Because I work with them every day. Because I build engines for the Race series Vipers, and service the same. Because I push the limits of technology to the point you wouldn't even understand what you were looking at. Because I cut through the nonsense and understand what this market really is all about, without being caught up in the politics of it. Because of the people I have met, and the connections I have made as a result. Because of the fellow vendors that used to be, and at least to some extent, are still in this market. Because I understand what "Viper" is supposed to mean.

Let me boil this down very simply: You are new. We have been here a long time. Sit down and be quiet for a while, and come back when you are mature enough to have a conversation that does not involve insulting 95% of the board, while speaking about topics you don't understand. We get it, you like your new car. That's great. We also like ours too.

 

[ferraritoviper]

Oh, I'd consider an older viper at about 1/2 the price they were trying to sell them for. They were not $100K cars by any stretch of the imagination, which is why only an imaginative few bought them. Talking about a Gen 5 when you obviously don't own one and probably haven't even seen on in person just makes you look like a fool.



Right, nobody who has driven a Gen 5 and an older viper has suggested that any of the "character" that older vipers had was lost. Motortrend just showed how a base SRT Gen 5 was able to hang with a $300K SLS Black Series. Don't know how well an older viper would fair, but I'd say the current generation is not "falling behind" by any means.



Ohhh, we don't get it but YOU do.

No, that's what it means to be someone who is confusing a supercar with a weekend track whip. Dodge always wanted the viper to be more than it was; they just didn't have the operational budget to make that happen so they OPTED to focus on performance rather than splitting it. It had nothing to do with your ridiculous supposition of what a viper is, and now that SRT has better leadership they were able to produce the car they wanted to all along.




I will lose sight of those who can't keep up - you either adapt and evolve or get left behind. The Gen 5 is TODAY'S viper and the cars available in its price range are highly competitive, many of which will blow the doors off of older gen Vipers. If you wanted a time machine you should be posting on the DeLorean forums.

Peer, I enjoyed your first post, and yes, you got jumped on a few times, maybe unfairly....but you're a newbie, happens to all of us. However, your above comments to VS are uncalled for, unfair and a bit over the top. I agree with your feelings about the Gen 5 (had a gen 4), it's why I ordered Gen 5, I wanted today's rocket....but as an example, you can't tell a person his wife is ugly, it's just not right!

Friendly advice, this is the Viper community populated 99-1/2+ pct by previous Viper Gen owners, not counting wanna be's...it's almost cult like (especially the older Gen's), so please take a quick course in empathy 101. You seem like a bright person...a little commen sense and good judgment will go a long way

 

[TowDawg]

Who is this newb "Viper Specialty" trying to act like he knows anything about Vipers? Just because you made a screen name that sounds like you know something, you expect us all to believe that you actually do? Come back when you have some actual experience that you can enlighten us with.

 

[BlackSnake99]

it's almost cult like (especially the older Gen's)

No 'almost' about it. It is a sickness.

 

[VIPER 93]

He might be in a time out right now

 

[Jog]

Peerblock....You have a PM.

Wow!!...Even though he's a newbie; he's already caught the attention of the forum staff!!...I wonder if this is good or bad...

 

[PeerBlock]

Man... the more you type, the more arrogantly you dig yourself into an ignorant hole. I would suggest you stop before you are never able to climb back out.

If I'm digging a hole it's only so I can come down to your level.

I can deduce from your "old" comment that you are surely quite young, as if I did not gather that from your posting style and lack of understanding as to what some of us are trying to express. However, I hate to rain on your parade, but I can assure you that I am not old... not even in the remote context of the word. Anyone who knows me personally is laughing at you right now. Don't even try to pull the "Look what I did at a young age" card on a board full of entrepreneurs and business people, you will lose, as there is always someone better.

You may not be old by age but you're old as in outdated, obsolete. I'm old by age, but youthful in the sense that I'm not stuck in a rut of constantly looking back at the good ole days. You need to take some of your own advice and talk less.

Where was it that I claimed to be a "Viper Expert" because I owned an older version? I don't recall. You see, I claim to be a "Viper Expert" because I have owned and do own multiple.

Sure, multiple old versions. Do you have a Gen 5? No...then why are you in the Gen 5 forum in the first place? To bash the Gen 5 for not being your idiotic idea of what a "real" viper is?

Because I have been designing parts and packages for them for over a decade. Because I work with them every day. Because I build engines for the Race series Vipers, and service the same. Because I push the limits of technology to the point you wouldn't even understand what you were looking at. Because I cut through the nonsense and understand what this market really is all about, without being caught up in the politics of it. Because of the people I have met, and the connections I have made as a result. Because of the fellow vendors that used to be, and at least to some extent, are still in this market. Because I understand what "Viper" is supposed to mean.

OH SHNAP! Why are you not working for Chrysler then? You could make the viper into a world-class sports car by ripping out all that unnecessary leather, ditching that worthless glass, removing those pesky cats and mufflers...gotta toss the passenger seat to because a real man races solo.

You should totally write down your design philosophy in the form of a strongly worded email and demand that Ralph and SRT redirect their efforts until they mesh perfectly with your vision of what a viper is supposed to mean.

Let me boil this down very simply: You are new. We have been here a long time. Sit down and be quiet for a while, and come back when you are mature enough to have a conversation that does not involve insulting 95% of the board, while speaking about topics you don't understand. We get it, you like your new car. That's great. We also like ours too.

Yup, old, out-of-touch. Hall & Oates. Still wearing zubaz pants to work... I have an even simpler idea for you - if you don't like what I have to say then ignore me, but if you decide to talk to me expect a response.

Friendly advice, this is the Viper community populated 99-1/2+ pct by previous Viper Gen owners, not counting wanna be's...it's almost cult like (especially the older Gen's), so please take a quick course in empathy 101. You seem like a bright person...a little commen sense and good judgment will go a long way

It goes both ways, sir, and the Viper is a pleasure vehicle and the forums should reflect that. That, plus I paid the same fee that others did to post here so I will. If I was going into the forums for older vipers and telling them that I think their cars ****, you would be spot-on with what you said...but the situation is reversed. You got the old farts coming into the Gen 5 forum and telling the new owners that they're not driving a real viper or that they don't know what a viper is bla bla bla etc.

It doesn't bother me, but that's what's going on. I try to stay on topic.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Who is this newb "Viper Specialty" trying to act like he knows anything about Vipers? Just because you made a screen name that sounds like you know something, you expect us all to believe that you actually do? Come back when you have some actual experience that you can enlighten us with.

Psssht. My matchbox Viper is totally cooler than yours.

 

[Viper Specialty]

If I'm digging a hole it's only so I can come down to your level. You may not be old by age but you're old as in outdated, obsolete. I'm old by age, but youthful in the sense that I'm not stuck in a rut of constantly looking back at the good ole days. You need to take some of your own advice and talk less. Sure, multiple old versions. Do you have a Gen 5? No...then why are you in the Gen 5 forum in the first place? To bash the Gen 5 for not being your idiotic idea of what a "real" viper is? OH SHNAP! Why are you not working for Chrysler then? You could make the viper into a world-class sports car by ripping out all that unnecessary leather, ditching that worthless glass, removing those pesky cats and mufflers...gotta toss the passenger seat to because a real man races solo. You should totally write down your design philosophy in the form of a strongly worded email and demand that Ralph and SRT redirect their efforts until they mesh perfectly with your vision of what a viper is supposed to mean. Yup, old, out-of-touch. Hall & Oates. Still wearing zubaz pants to work... I have an even simpler idea for you - if you don't like what I have to say then ignore me, but if you decide to talk to me expect a response.

I am not even going to bother typing a long-winded response to this drivel. You have severe reading comprehension difficulties, and are arrogant and ignorant to the Nth. You started this whole thing with YOUR idiotic side commentary spewing from the ****** of uninformed immaturity. You do not care to understand, nor possibly are even able to comprehend what I or anyone else is trying to explain. You are the epitome of exactly what all of us feared would happen to this market. Enjoy your stay, I am sure it will be short and drama-filled.

 

[ViperSmith]

If I want to "Claim" I was talking about PeerBlock? Quick lesson in the internet: DON'T QUOTE SOMEONE IF YOU INTEND TO DERAIL THE CONTEXT OF WHAT THEY SAID.

This isnt rocket science.

No offense, but I had no malice towards you. Not sure why you'd be so abrasive to a whole new set of potential customers. It is pretty off putting.

 

[PDCjonny]

He's imploding. Sit back, watch and enjoy.

 

[ViperSmith]

He's imploding. Sit back, watch and enjoy.

I fall into the boat wondering if he even owns one and is a fantastic troll.