Black Smoke and Detonation On My GEN II

[Dimitrios]

as you all know my pistons went and replaced them with diamond forged pistons. Also replaced the stock cam with a 96 mopar 708 cam and 10lbs of boost on the Roe SC. The car runs very strong and as matter of fact i toasted 2 bikers that were cruzin together on several runs from a roll on the expwy last night.

Now the problem. When i mash the pedal i get alot of blk smoke. My rear bumper is now black right over the exhaust pipes and it seems like its not coming off when i wash it. When i mash the pedal at around 4000 rpms and higher it detonates and when i get into it slow over 4000 rpms its fine. is it running too rich? what needs to be adjusted?

thanks

 

[Mark Red GTS Cooper]

What are you running for engine management (Fuel, timing)

Mark

 

[Dimitrios]

What are you running for engine management (Fuel, timing)

Mark

not sure what you are asking me..you mean like a VEC2?

 

[Schulmann]

Black smoke => you are too rich, it is good but likely you could lean out your AFR. Use cleaner vax to remove the dirt (smoke).

Detonation => Since you are rich I presume you have a fuel and ignition issue. ALWAYS use 93 oct fuel with a so high boost. NO EXCEPTION. Another thing: maybe your timing is too agressive. You have to retard the timing a lot maybe as much as 5 degres. Don't mess with detonation. On 91 octane fuel (with 6.5lb pulley) I have detonation even in vacuum. I either inject a little methanol or I retard my timing 1-2 degrees.

I don't know what crankcase ventillation you use. I think you are using a catch can. This is the best, if not have a catch can installed.

 

[VIPER D]

whats your afr #'s?? was the car tuned on the dyno?




vd..

 

[dansauto]

you need to get that to a dyno and have it tuned ASAP. Black smoke is fuel, but it should not be detonating. you may just be getting hesitation because it is too rich.

 

[00prowler]

D,You need your Vec 2 card Redone by Sean..I had the same problem with my S/C last year..After I called him and told him how it blew smoke, pinged, etc, Sean made a few new cards, did some timing and fuel adjustments and had the **** come on sooner..then I dynoed it and he did a little A/F corrections to another card..Now it never pings,no smoke, goes like hell..I am sure it is disappointing now...when your dialed in you will love it. Sean can overnight the cards to you if you pay the postage. He does em quick, had them in 2 days..hope this helps...AL...

 

[Dimitrios]

whats your afr #'s?? was the car tuned on the dyno?




vd..

not dynoed yet. hopefully Bill M at visions of speed will ahve time to do this weekend

 

[Dimitrios]

D,You need your Vec 2 card Redone by Sean..I had the same problem with my S/C last year..After I called him and told him how it blew smoke, pinged, etc, Sean made a few new cards, did some timing and fuel adjustments and had the **** come on sooner..then I dynoed it and he did a little A/F corrections to another card..Now it never pings,no smoke, goes like hell..I am sure it is disappointing now...when your dialed in you will love it. Sean can overnight the cards to you if you pay the postage. He does em quick, had them in 2 days..hope this helps...AL...

who dynoed and tuned your car?

 

[Supercharged Vipermad]

D,
Do you have the software for the VEC2? Between Sean, The Wizard, and Joe Dell...I have learned a HUGE amount about tuning with the VEC2. So much so that 99.9999% of all slight detonation I occasionally had is gone, and I did it all myself (well, with the help of Joe).

My goal was to get it rid of all detonation while keeping the car running strong. Next step is to get it on the dyno (once my radiator comes in).

Prior to putting my car on the lift I got it to the point where I didn't even THINK twice about mashing the gas....any RPM, any boost. Except for the heads and pistons (mine are stock 97....except #7...that one is a bit newer )...we have pretty much the same setup.

I made over 20 runs down a private stretch of nice, extra wide road I just happened to find. I'd get on it, listen for detonation (and remember what JD told me) and I'd note the BOOST and RPM. I'd pull over, open the laptop, make small changes, then go again.

I know two things....I am NOT making it run too rich...and I AM getting rid of the detonation. Detonation can be handled with more octane (or fuel), or less timing. I have taken out a little timing here and there as well as given it a bit of fuel. I also fine-tuned the WM pump. The cost is...you tend to take away power and you take away timing...but you might run "safer" and then get on the dyno to fine tune the AFR.

I do NOT mean to over simplify all of this...I am sure someone will correct anything I am wrong about. I am learning as I go, and I have no problem learning on my car. JD will tell you I have bugged him non-stop!! LOL!

 

[00prowler]

D,You need your Vec 2 card Redone by Sean..I had the same problem with my S/C last year..After I called him and told him how it blew smoke, pinged, etc, Sean made a few new cards, did some timing and fuel adjustments and had the **** come on sooner..then I dynoed it and he did a little A/F corrections to another card..Now it never pings,no smoke, goes like hell..I am sure it is disappointing now...when your dialed in you will love it. Sean can overnight the cards to you if you pay the postage. He does em quick, had them in 2 days..hope this helps...AL...

who dynoed and tuned your car?

Sean dialed in the cards for me. He dialed mine in real nice just based on my input. Send him your card you have now... When you tell him what the car is doing he will make up some new cards based off your original and make nessesary adjustments to timing, fuel, ****. etc....If you go to VOS you can dyno it, call Sean give him the HP TQ & A/F numbers and he can Email the new program based on those numbers to Bill and he can reprogram your card on the spot...AL...

 

[Sean Roe]

Hi Dimitrios,
Chuck probably has your closed loop driving set, now it's time for a trip to the dyno to properly set the air / fuel ratio and timing.
You have quite a combination there, which should make about 800 HP at the engine. It just needs to be tuned.
Adding water / methanol to the mix does add a new dynamic to the tuning, but it's not rocket science.
Before you go see Bill, send me a detailed e-mail of how the car is driving, at cruise, tip in, transitions to boost, full throttle, etc. The more input the better.
There are three phases to tuning. #1, tuning for closed loop driving (idle to cruise). #2, full throttle tuning, easily done on a dyno, or with logging the air / fuel ratio and using some new logging features we're adding into the VEC2. #3, transitional tuning, where you make sure the move from vacuum to boost is as seamless and smooth as possible.
Each car can be a little different in the tune it likes, as in the final values. But, the principal factors are the same. The engine wants about 11.8:1 AFR and 22 degrees spark advance (depending) without WM and about 12.0: AFR with at least 27 degrees advance with WM.
Talk to you soon.
Regards,
Sean

 

[pedro]

Hi Dimitrios,
Im going to have my car tune at vision of speed maybe ill see you there.

 

[Joseph Dell]

Everyone here hit it right on the money. You need to get the data, adjust to the data, and then re-test. ViperMAD - you aren't a pain at all! look at what you turned me in to:

I suppose one _can_ get a little obsessive with the data-logging... but at least i have an ipod in there!

JD

 

[Marc Lublin]

Dimitrios,
What everyone has failed to mention is how dangerous it is for your motor when you hear detonation. At higher RPM's and higher boost it only takes seconds or not even to blow your motor. Your new pistons are good, but detonation can eat up anything. Your rod bearings also take a huge beating. What i'm saying is, don't mess around, take care of this NOW or don't get on it at all. Detonation is a killer!

 

[VIPER D]

whats your afr #'s?? was the car tuned on the dyno?




vd..

not dynoed yet. hopefully Bill M at visions of speed will ahve time to do this weekend

drop me an pm and i will meet you there. I haven't seen my new twin turbo cobra 1000 yet that visions is building for me.

vd..

 

[plumcrazy]

VOS is STILL in biz?

 

[AviP]

Not to hijack the thread, but what is that red display screen in the left air vent.

 

[Joseph Dell]

No problemo. If that is the only mystery device in the picture, then you are doing good!

That is a techedge wideband O2 sensor display. www.wbo2.com . Mine is the 2BO.

JD

 

[VIPER D]

VOS is STILL in biz?

hell yea they are almost done with 1000hp twin turbo cobra.

vd..

 

[newredrt10]

Dimitrios
Are you sure your not puttng oil thrugh thes s/c.
Oil in the intake will leave a black film on the back end. It will also cause detonation. How are you venting the crankcase. Are you putting it through the intake or the aircleaner. If so check to see if there is standing oil at the connection points. If oil is found that might be your problem.