Blew out my Belanger header gaskets at the Y

[Bolt]

Remember this? Some of you told me to just use silicone and I thought this type of gasket would work since it had the metal ring inside. WRONG! They blew out. Less than 500 miles.

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Here is what these gaskets looked like after they blew out.

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So here is what I did. I cut my own gaskets out of the Mr Gasket material on my CNC engraver machine. This gave me very good accuracy. I then put silicone on them and reinstalled them. This should work this time.

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Bolt

 

[dansauto]

love that machine, not to sure about RTV on exhaust parts though as it burns off you may want to retorque before they blow out again. I dug thru a bunch of gaskets at our local NAPA to find some for Laurie's the ones that came with the headers didnt match up. the best gasket is no gasket, but I dont think the flanges will seat flat enough.

 

[Bolt]

love that machine, not to sure about RTV on exhaust parts though as it burns off you may want to retorque before they blow out again. I dug thru a bunch of gaskets at our local NAPA to find some for Laurie's the ones that came with the headers didnt match up. the best gasket is no gasket, but I dont think the flanges will seat flat enough.

Now here is a smart man! (Flanges don't matchup)

Bolt

 

[treed]

Bolt - how did you know the gaskets blew out? by sound? change in performance? I think I've got a small exhaust leak in the same spot, but I'm just guessing by the sound... not sure what to check...

 

[Bolt]

Bolt - how did you know the gaskets blew out? by sound? change in performance? I think I've got a small exhaust leak in the same spot, but I'm just guessing by the sound... not sure what to check...

Took it to the DYNO and when I got home I went over the whole car. I had a oil leak at the Super Charger, Gas line leak at the Fuel filter, Super Charger belt is rubbing a bracket, and as I was running the car I know to look for things like exhaust leaks. I put it up on the lift with the car running and felt around the joint and felt air coming out of that area. So I disasemled and this is what I found.

Bolt

 

[plumcrazy]

i used some copper permatex stuff. if you do a search for bellanger, one of the guys said to use it. and seemed to hold up pretty good.

 

[SNKEBIT]

Just the red silicone works for me...

 

[ViperTony]

Lou Belanger said NO gaskets at the Y connection just use high temp silicone. I used very little, per Lou. He explained to me that the surfaces are machined flat and that only a little silicone was needed, if any, to ensure a proper seal. Are yours possibly warped?

 

[Jack B]

Lou Belanger said NO gaskets at the Y connection just use high temp silicone. I used very little, per Lou. He explained to me that the surfaces are machined flat and that only a little silicone was needed, if any, to ensure a proper seal. Are yours possibly warped?

Not to be negative, but, he also used to supply that piece of sh_t manifold gasket that lasted less than 1000 miles. Virtually everyone has a problem with those flanges leaking. Even if you don't think it is leaking look at the bottom of the heat shield, that tells you immediately. One thing to be cautious of is that you must tighten that flange evenly.

 

[dansauto]

yep, I agree and I think Bob has the right gasket material now. Maybe drive it a bit and torque them again.

 

[Bolt]

This needed updated.

I found this off the shelf gasket which works great. Just put high temprature silicone gasket sealer on each side and install. There is so many features of this gasket which makes it a success. The metal ring in the center is the most important. next is the metal outercoating. Lastly is the soft high temprature core. This core is soft enough when the flanges are bolted together that the gasket will take up the gap where needed.

Below is the part number.

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[dave6666]

This needed updated.

I found this off the shelf gasket which works great. Just put high temprature silicone gasket sealer on each side and install. There is so many features of this gasket which makes it a success. The metal ring in the center is the most important. next is the metal outercoating. Lastly is the soft high temprature core. This core is soft enough when the flanges are bolted together that the gasket will take up the gap where needed.

Below is the part number.

And where do you buy it from Bolt?

 

[fqberful]

This needed updated.

I found this off the shelf gasket which works great. Just put high temprature silicone gasket sealer on each side and install. There is so many features of this gasket which makes it a success. The metal ring in the center is the most important. next is the metal outercoating. Lastly is the soft high temprature core. This core is soft enough when the flanges are bolted together that the gasket will take up the gap where needed.

Below is the part number.

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Hi,

From Summit you can get thin copper gaskets 2 bolt : PN SCE-4225 which will not blow out ever and are soft enough to insure you won't warp the flanges.

HTH

 

[ViperTony]

Hi,

From Summit you can get thin copper gaskets 2 bolt : PN SCE-4225 which will not blow out ever and are soft enough to insure you won't warp the flanges.

HTH

The SCE gasket you mention does not fit the Belanger collectors. The embossed seal on these gaskets don't line up with the ID of the pipe. What happens is that the raised embossed seal sits on the flat part of the flange and won't allow you to get a tight seal. It's too thick to crush down when tightening the flanges. That's not what it was intended for. It's specifically for true 2.25" ID. Check my other thread...the actual dimensions of the Y-pipe is not 2.25", the ID is 2 1/16" and the 2.25" embossed gaskets don't match up well. These SCE gaskets are also made from some of the hardest copper I've seen. They're not as soft as they lead you to believe. I'm having custom copper gaskets made with the proper measurements and o-ring.

Bolt is trying to find out the manufacturer's name for his gaskets. So far I've been able to find this about them: Exhaust Flange Gaskets,Flange Gaskets Manufacturer,Exhaust Flange Gaskets Supplier,Exhaust Flange Gasket Manufacturer

 

[fqberful]

The SCE gasket you mention does not fit the Belanger collectors. The embossed seal on these gaskets don't line up with the ID of the pipe. What happens is that the raised embossed seal sits on the flat part of the flange and won't allow you to get a tight seal. It's too thick to crush down when tightening the flanges. That's not what it was intended for. It's specifically for true 2.25" ID. Check my other thread...the actual dimensions of the Y-pipe is not 2.25", the ID is 2 1/16" and the 2.25" embossed gaskets don't match up well. These SCE gaskets are also made from some of the hardest copper I've seen. They're not as soft as they lead you to believe. I'm having custom copper gaskets made with the proper measurements and o-ring.

Bolt is trying to find out the manufacturer's name for his gaskets. So far I've been able to find this about them: Exhaust Flange Gaskets,Flange Gaskets Manufacturer,Exhaust Flange Gaskets Supplier,Exhaust Flange Gasket Manufacturer

First off, the type of gasket I mentioned isn't meant to have the bead right next to the opening, they actually work better when the seal is in the middle of the flange area. If they were so soft you could smash the bead flat they absolutely would not seal for very long. When you use a gasket of this type you need to bring the torque up on the bolts evenly. Having the bead in the middle lessens the possibility of warping things when you tighten them down. They are softer than the steel flanges even with the beads rolled in.

Any fiber type composite gasket running in a high vibration area of the exhaust like the ones mentioned in this thread will not stay for as long as one would like.

I've been using these copper gaskets for years and have never had even one blow out or leak. If what you said is true then my Viper, truck, and 2 old muscle cars would be leaking all over the place which they absolutely do not. On all of them the bead is closer to the center of the flange area then the hole. Oh, and did I mention they are reusable ?

This is why they have so many makes and models, we all have different ideas, none necessarily better or worse than the other.

 

[ViperTony]

First off, the type of gasket I mentioned isn't meant to have the bead right next to the opening, they actually work better when the seal is in the middle of the flange area. If they were so soft you could smash the bead flat they absolutely would not seal for very long. When you use a gasket of this type you need to bring the torque up on the bolts evenly. Having the bead in the middle lessens the possibility of warping things when you tighten them down. They are softer than the steel flanges even with the beads rolled in.

Any fiber type composite gasket running in a high vibration area of the exhaust like the ones mentioned in this thread will not stay for as long as one would like.

I've been using these copper gaskets for years and have never had even one blow out or leak. If what you said is true then my Viper, truck, and 2 old muscle cars would be leaking all over the place which they absolutely do not. On all of them the bead is closer to the center of the flange area then the hole. Oh, and did I mention they are reusable ?

This is why they have so many makes and models, we all have different ideas, none necessarily better or worse than the other.

Yes, what I say about this SCE gasket, with this Belanger header and its corresponding Y-connector is true. Even when tightening the bolts evenly the thickness of this gasket's raised embossment doesn't compress to create a tight seal. It actually bends the ears of the flanges but does not compress the embossment. I'll post a pic of this using my Belanger headers...cause you know I only post misinformation to mislead fellow Viper owners.

 

[Purdue_Boiler_Viper]

Dang. I'm getting ready to do my Belanger install, and you guys are making me nervous. I'm not a believer in the high temp copper silicone. I tried that when installing my cat and cat back system. The stuff burned off in no time, and made the car look like it was on fire (smoke!).

 

[dave6666]

Dang. I'm getting ready to do my Belanger install, and you guys are making me nervous. I'm not a believer in the high temp copper silicone. I tried that when installing my cat and cat back system. The stuff burned off in no time, and made the car look like it was on fire (smoke!).

Where did you use silicone on a cat and cat-back install? That stuff is for gasket flanges, not pipe slip joints. But if you had flange joints on or near your cats that could have been in excess of the rated temp for the silicone.

 

[Purdue_Boiler_Viper]

Where did you use silicone on a cat and cat-back install? That stuff is for gasket flanges, not pipe slip joints. But if you had flange joints on or near your cats that could have been in excess of the rated temp for the silicone.

I tried to use it to help seal the reducer to the existing header. That was clamped, but not real well. The silicone lasted about an hour. I don't see how my application is any harsher than what is being described here. If the silicone burns off, it is going to do more harm than good as it will leave a gap, however small.

Permatex® Ultra Copper® Maximum Temperature RTV Silicone Gasket Maker
OEM specified. Highest operating temperatures for 4-cylinder, turbocharged or high-performance engines. The most advanced, high temp RTV silicone gasket available. Sensor-safe, low odor, noncorrosive. Superior adhesion. Three times more oil resistant than conventional silicones; eight times more flexible than cut gaskets. Temperature range -75°F to 700°F (-59°C to 371°C) intermittent; resists auto and shop fluids and vibration.

Suggested Applications: Exhaust manifolds/ headers, valve covers, oil pans, timing covers, water pumps, thermostat housings

 

[ViperTony]

Dang. I'm getting ready to do my Belanger install, and you guys are making me nervous. I'm not a believer in the high temp copper silicone. I tried that when installing my cat and cat back system. The stuff burned off in no time, and made the car look like it was on fire (smoke!).

Purdue...don't let this scare you, its not a common occurrence. Most of the time IF this leaks occurs at the Y-collector flanges, its usually one of the following:

- The flanges weren't aligned properly upon installation.
- The flange bolts weren't evenly torqued ,or, were overtorqued causing the flange ears to bend and/or warp.
- Using gaskets that causes the flange to warp. (no gaskets are required)
- Bolts loosened and weren't retightened after 500 miles or so
- Wrong bolts...using inferior bolts that stretch
- The flanges are no longer flat (probably due to the above) and require re-machining for a perfect seal.

Lou doesn't require the use of gaskets except for the header-manifold and stick with the OEM metal ones for that. But he does recommend a very light coat of copper silicone. I can attest that when these flanges are sealed properly, the copper doesn't burn off. Unless of course you apply an entire tube of it when only a tiny bit is needed. Even with my leak, you'll see that the copper didn't burn off.

Lou stands behind his products...he asked me to send the headers/connectors back so he can machine the flanges flat if needed. Before I do that, I thought I'd try a cheap solution with copper gaskets.

I am not insane, I can follow direction and ruled out every symptom mentioned above. I believe I have a specific issue related to the gap between the ID of the pipe and flange. When I measured everything I found there's an off-set of about 1/16 - 1/8th of an inch which could be enough to allow exhaust pressue to slip past the flange. The surface of my Y-collector, whily may be flat, is not necessarily as smooth as the other flange surfaces. Its an easy fix if the right gasket can be found, something similiar to Bolt's solution below.

Don't worry about it. Now that you know what not to do, you should be OK. I seem to be the oddity.

 

[dave6666]

I am not insane, I can follow direction and ruled out every symptom mentioned above. I believe I have a specific issue related to the gap between the ID of the pipe and flange. When I measured everything I found there's an off-set of about 1/16 - 1/8th of an inch which could be enough to allow exhaust pressue to slip past the flange. The surface of my Y-collector, whily may be flat, is not necessarily as smooth as the other flange surfaces. Its an easy fix if the right gasket can be found, something similiar to Bolt's solution below.

We are still debating the insane business. We'll post that after the Tequila runs dry...

But seriously, maybe I'm the one that's insane. The gap between the ID of the pipe and the flange... There's my confusion. The ID of the pipe ain't supposed to be in contact with the flange. It's the inside of the pipe. Or are you talking about the fact that the pipe is set back from the sealing face of the flange? That shouldn't affect anything, as the seal is on the flange faces.

 

[ViperTony]

We are still debating the insane business. We'll post that after the Tequila runs dry...

But seriously, maybe I'm the one that's insane. The gap between the ID of the pipe and the flange... There's my confusion. The ID of the pipe ain't supposed to be in contact with the flange. It's the inside of the pipe. Or are you talking about the fact that the pipe is set back from the sealing face of the flange? That shouldn't affect anything, as the seal is on the flange faces.

I'll draw a picture. In the meantime...I'm saying that the ID of the connecting pipe IS in contact with the flange by a 1/8" it appears. I agree, this shouldn't affect anything but if you look at the pics of my y-collector flanges, they're flat but the surface is anything but smooth. The grooves left behind by the maching process is enough, I think, to allow exhaust to escape from this overlap. See my pics of the flanges here. The leaks seems to follow the groove lines.

 

[dave6666]

I'll draw a picture. In the meantime...I'm saying that the ID of the connecting pipe IS in contact with the flange by a 1/8" it appears. I agree, this shouldn't affect anything but if you look at the pics of my y-collector flanges, they're flat but the surface is anything but smooth. The grooves left behind by the maching process is enough, I think, to allow exhaust to escape from this overlap. See my pics of the flanges here. The leaks seems to follow the groove lines.

In the chemical industry that I've been in for the past 27 years - pipe and flanges galore - it is standard practice that a flange welded to a pipe on the ID of the flange, that the pipe is inset from the sealing surface of the flange. Mainly because in that industry there is no way to machine that smooth if the pipe was to be welded flush with the flange surface.

I would apply the same to the exhaust flanges. Where the pipe is on the flange has nothing to do with the sealing of the flanges. It is entirely up to the flanges to create the seal. And if yours are grooved to the touch or eye, there's your problem. Metal to metal seals need an almost polished finish for optimal sealing. Not required, but certainly preferred.

Or, don't drive so damn fast and hard...

OK, bad idea. I would send them back to Lou for that free rework he has offered.

 

[ViperTony]

Or, don't drive so damn fast and hard...

OK, bad idea. I would send them back to Lou for that free rework he has offered.

LOL, believe it or not, most of the time I drive easier and slower than our beloved NY/CT VCA prez, no need to mention names. I think I will just break down, disassemble everything and send to Lou for a proper fix. I just the thought having to remove those cursed heat shields... Mas Tequila!!!

 

[Bolt]

Hey Guys,

I did not forget about you. I have been very busy. I'll get to the parts store and get a part number soon. If anyone needs this number imediatly PM me and I'll make a special run.

 

[Purdue_Boiler_Viper]

... the copper doesn't burn off. Unless of course you apply an entire tube of it when only a tiny bit is needed.

You mean a tube per side is overkill???

 

[pedro]

Use a V band exhaust clamp they came in 4in to 1.5 in dia. no more gaskets or sealer.You will need to have them welded on your headers.I have them on my car and never had a leak,eBay Motors: 2.5" V-Band Aluminum Exhaust Clamp Flange (item 120207274736 end time Feb-05-08 16:06:35 PST)

 

[Bolt]

Use a V band exhaust clamp they came in 4in to 1.5 in dia. no more gaskets or sealer.You will need to have them welded on your headers.I have them on my car and never had a leak,eBay Motors: 2.5" V-Band Aluminum Exhaust Clamp Flange (item 120207274736 end time Feb-05-08 16:06:35 PST)

Very good idea but I'm not shure there is enough room for them.

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[pedro]

I had to grind down on the inside of the v clamp to clear the v band.

 

[Bolt]

Here is what I found in part numbers.

There is two standard numbers. 6869 and 31 537

6869 can be found at Carquest (717-234-6201)
31537 can be found at NAPA (717-234-0154)

These part numbers are pretty standard. Try your local auto parts store.
Price ranges from $2.50 to $6.00 each.

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