Block Welding

[1999viper19gts]

My '99 GTS came with hypereutic pistons. These are cast, not forged. I have had two of them break apart and damage the engine. The first time it happened I bought a used block. The last time I had the block welded and a new sleeve put in. It was much cheaper, and the results were excellent. I had it done by Les Menke of Carrage Stop Restorations. His phone number is 315-597-0005. You should check this out before you trash your old block.

 

[96GTS]

I wouldn't have used the hypereutic pistons again if they caused me to need a new block the first time; even if it had taken me a year to save up for a new rotating assembly. Forged pistons are stronger and can handle more boost in super/turbo charged applications, and if I was having to pull the motor anyway I wouldn't think twice about using them.

 

[TowDawg]

I assume you bought the car used and someone put hypereutectic pistons in your '99? 2000 was the first year that the Viper went away from forged.

 

[ViperTony]

I assume you bought the car used and someone put hypereutectic pistons in your '99? 2000 was the first year that the Viper went away from forged.

What he said. Also, to the OP, what were the conditions that caused the pistons to break apart? Nitrous? Bad Tune? Forced Induction? Etc.

 

[1999viper19gts]

I bought the car new in '99. The ads all said that it had forged pistons so I didn't change them. However, comparing the '98 to '99 pistons, there was obviously a big change. The 99's don't look like forged pistons. I will check the service manual and see what it says.

The motor was making about 550 hp, and it was the number 1 piston that broke both times. I only drive the car on the track. I have oil baffles in the pan and have corrected the dip stick so I do not overfill the pan. Still, under heavy braking, like from 140 to 70 on the back straight at Watkins Glenn, the oil sloshes forward and the front two pistons are subject to hydraulic forces. This is the reason for dry sumps, but I haven't done that yet.

 

[1999viper19gts]

I checked the service manual and measured the piston clearance. The manual calls for .003" clearance and the pistons measure .003" clearance. Hypereutectic pistons run .0015 to .002 clearance, while forged run .004 to .006. The '99 pistons have raised, casted-in markings on the inside on the skirts. I don't see how you can get casted-in markings on a forged piston.

 

[TowDawg]

Odd. You've had your engine apart, I haven't. I'm just going off of what has always been reported.

Try posting this in the "Grail Trail" and see if Herb has any input. If they truly are not forged, and be proven to be original from the factory, I would be pushing someone at Dodge for an explanation and an engine upgrade.

 

[klamathpro]

This is weird man. As far as this forum goes back, the consensus has always been, pre 2000's are all forged. What is the build date of your car? Also, what month and year did you buy it? I'm curious, because if you indeed have cast pistons maybe you bought a possible carry through 99' that no one has ever heard of. Dodge did make numerous running changes but no one has ever heard of 99's coming with cast pistons. I have a very late 98' (oct 98 build) that has a 99' engine layout and some of the vacuum hoses don't match the 98' manual, so weird undocumented running changes have happened. But I wonder if your dealer possibly blew your engine before they sold it to you, then replaced either the whole engine with 2000 engine, or had it rebuilt, then put in cast pistons before selling it. The thing is, how are you getting 550HP? NA or forced induction? Is that RWHP? If it's just heads and cam, etc, you should not be cracking even cast pistons, even at 550RWHP. Who designed your baffles? When you say you track your car, is it heavy track use? Blowing Piston #1 twice means there must be a common denominator, and you need to figure that out or else you may just do it again. It could be something as simple as injector #1 going lean, or your fuel pump not delivering. I would have put forged pistons back in, at least it will resist whatever is causing your possible detonation or ringland failure.

 

[Camfab]

It's easy to tell, post a pic of the cast vs. forged. Overall piston height ring placement etc. is totally different between the cast and forged pistons. If you have cast pistons your rods are longer and don't look anything like the 99 and older rods.

 

[Rickman6]

My GTS is a 2000 year model and the engine block is marked december 99 ...does this for sure mean it's a creampuff engine or is there
a slim chance it could have forged pistons??

 

[klamathpro]

All 2000 model year Vipers are creampuffs. No chance at all it's a carry over.

I want to know what ever came of this so called creampuff 99'. I still don't believe it came that way from the factory.

 

[Camfab]

I bought the car new in '99. The ads all said that it had forged pistons so I didn't change them. However, comparing the '98 to '99 pistons, there was obviously a big change. The 99's don't look like forged pistons. I will check the service manual and see what it says.

The motor was making about 550 hp, and it was the number 1 piston that broke both times. I only drive the car on the track. I have oil baffles in the pan and have corrected the dip stick so I do not overfill the pan. Still, under heavy braking, like from 140 to 70 on the back straight at Watkins Glenn, the oil sloshes forward and the front two pistons are subject to hydraulic forces. This is the reason for dry sumps, but I haven't done that yet.

Ok, you have an interesting theory and I'm not saying that your wrong but............................really how do you know this to be the case? Yes oil rushes forward and splashes up under the pistons under severe braking, but it does the same thing under violent acceleration such as drag racing. In fact I'd say the effects of drag racing are far more compounded as the engine is at rest, the oil pan has a heck of a lot more fluid in it. So why have I not heard of the number 9 or 10 pistons grenading? On the back straight at Watkins Glen youv'e probably pumped most of your oil up into the top end of the block due to sustained high RPM. Maybe you have a stuck injector or something of that nature. When oil sloshes forward or backward due to poor control, the evil issue is typically a loss of pressure due to churning the oil with the crankshaft and turning it into foam. Something just seems wrong here. When one speaks of hydraulic destruction of an engine, your taking about capturing fluid in an area and then trying to compress it, that can't happen in your scenario.

So just to be clear your saying under heavy braking the engine has let go twice and it's always the same cylinder. My guess is if you don't look for other issues your forged replacement piston is going to let go as well. Hope I'm wrong. Let us know what you came up with, as we would all like to benefit from your unfortunate trouble. I'm well over your HP and TQ numbers, but my car does not see the track cycling duty that your does.
Best of luck and thanks for the welding heads up.