Burping Bummer

[BigsViper]

My '00 GTS seems to be running hotter and hotter (still below 225 or red mark right of the three in the middle and left of the 250) It used to stay in the three in the middle and only creep to the third when idling in high temps and traffic.

So I pulled the burping instructions from this site, got my turkey baster, distilled water and ethelyne glycol. Checked the overflow bottle in the right front fascia, and it was at the bottom of the cold full mark (that mark is about 3/8" wide). Checked the surge tank and it was right at the seam, about 3/4 of the way full so OK. Hmmmmmm...

My son and I put 4 hands on the left hose and squeezed and certainly heard some commotion in the surge tank. Checked the level and it was the same. Did it again, same results. Used the baster to add some distilled water to the overflow bottle and it is now at the top of the cold full mark.

What now?? Should I not worry about it? Or buy Roe's fan switch? When I'm driving it gets back into the three hash marks, and with the A/C on it cools off quicker!? Please lend your opinions.

 

[Ulysses]

did you turn the heat control to hot before burping?

 

[Mark Red GTS Cooper]

Did you also open up the heater valve? You really need to do this, or you will still have trapped air. I just lived through all of that.

Mark

 

[Ulysses]

Note: you will hear a lot of swishing back and forth, but the sound you really want to hear is of a bubble breaking the surface. If all is done as prescribed and you don't hear a burp and you still have a pver heat problem, it's time to take it in.

 

[Marv S]

what's your cruising rpm? I've noticed that when driving in hot weather, say 75 mph, that the engine temp is much warmer if driving in 4th a while. Drop it to 5th or 6th and engine temp drops.

How would the Roe fan switch cause the car to run cooler when driving? Isn't it doing its thing when the car is turned off?

The air bleeders can help but they're a bit if a mess. Tom Glenn has a smart way to keep air out without the mess.

 

[Serious Eric]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BigsViper:
My '00 GTS seems to be running hotter and hotter (still below 225 or red mark right of the three in the middle and left of the 250) It used to stay in the three in the middle and only creep to the third when idling in high temps and traffic.

So I pulled the burping instructions from this site, got my turkey baster, distilled water and ethelyne glycol. Checked the overflow bottle in the right front fascia, and it was at the bottom of the cold full mark (that mark is about 3/8" wide). Checked the surge tank and it was right at the seam, about 3/4 of the way full so OK. Hmmmmmm...

My son and I put 4 hands on the left hose and squeezed and certainly heard some commotion in the surge tank. Checked the level and it was the same. Did it again, same results. Used the baster to add some distilled water to the overflow bottle and it is now at the top of the cold full mark.

What now?? Should I not worry about it? Or buy Roe's fan switch? When I'm driving it gets back into the three hash marks, and with the A/C on it cools off quicker!? Please lend your opinions.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

By "back into the three hash marks" do you mean just past 190 or all the way on up toward the red again? If it's just between 190 and the first hash then that's nice and normal. If it's near the red then I think you've got a problem that should be addressed by more than a fan switch. The fan switch wouldn't be a bad idea anyway, but fix the underlying problemo first.

A/C on just forces the fan to come on which is why you see temps dropping. Have you checked oil for the milkshaky indication of coolant in there (possible head gasket blowage)? Also could be a stuck OPEN thermostat. Thermostat open doesn't allow coolant sufficient time in the radiator to dissipate heat.

Hope nuthin serious is wrong. You've got the *good* 99 fan module and that alone was sufficient to make my old dog-**** hot runnin gen I stay cool as a cucumber, so your car really shouldn't be gettin that warm.

 

[genXgts]

Bigs, was the car running when you attempted the burp with your boy? I tried the first time with the car off, haha, live and learn. Just thought you might have been hesitant to let your son's hands close to the belts, etc. to burp as it's pretty tight in there when it's running, let us know.....

I run just at the three middle hashes and in idle/hot situations it will swing up to the last line before the redline, ie, between third middle hash, and the next one, thinking that is normal? Put two bottles of Water Wetter in as well when I redid the timing chain cover gasket, that seems to help a bit as well.

And what did you end up doing about the Burger King Fiasco to your rims??

 

[BigsViper]

You guys are great, Thanks!

Ulysses I did turn the heat control to hot before starting.
Also I'm kind of wondering about the impeller problem in the water pump (your "time to take it in" comment).

Mark, How do you open up the "heater valve" besides turning the temp control to hot?

Marv, the problem only occurs in stop and go driving, but it used to not be a problem. At 75 I'm within the three hash marks regardless of gear (well, not first or second, anyway). I thought with the fan switch I could get the fan to turn on when I wanted it to, not when the thermostat wanted. What is Tom Glenn's method?

Eric, the three hash marks I'm referring to are the 190 at 12 o'clock and the one's immediately to the right and left of the 190. Are you saying to have it run past the one to the right of the 190 is normal? I'll have the tech check the thermostat.

Once again Gennie, you are proving me to be the old fool I am. I see absolutely no where in the instructions or in this thread or in anything else I've researched that indicates the car should be running while burping? Did that make a big difference or can someone else confirm? (that the car should be running, not that I'm an old fool!

).

Also GenX, I ended up getting a dremel and feathering out the scrapes and buffing. Now I need the paint code for the rims (another thread). I'm going to buy a set of new take-offs from Bill P. and Nancy at Woodhouse, put some Hoosiers or Khumos on the scraped rims and use the new ones for cruising (until I screw THEM up)

Thanks for all the input, still looking for more help!

 

[Serious Eric]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BigsViper:

Eric, the three hash marks I'm referring to are the 190 at 12 o'clock and the one's immediately to the right and left of the 190. Are you saying to have it run past the one to the right of the 190 is normal? I'll have the tech check the thermostat.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let's call the mark to the right of 12 o'clock the 1 o'clock mark. At idle it's normal to see the temp go a bit past 1 o'clock (I don't see it ever get to two o'clock). During highway driving it ought to come back down to around the 1 o'clock mark.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Once again Gennie, you are proving me to be the old fool I am. I see absolutely no where in the instructions or in this thread or in anything else I've researched that indicates the car should be running while burping? Did that make a big difference or can someone else confirm? (that the car should be running, not that I'm an old fool!

).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I'm with you Bigs. I've NEVER burped with car on and don't remember anything about that in the 'recipe'. Hell I'm not even sure that would be feasible or safe with the surge tank cap off? That unit is part of the pressurized circuit. I think genx may be smokin ****.

 

[HogWhisperer]

Bigs,

I installed Keith Verges burping kit and that sure as heck makes it easier than before. Someone said it was messy but I just haven't found that to be the case. In fact, it's so easy I end up burping it on a regular basis.

I also installed Bobby Archer's water pump. They mill the mounting surface so the impeller recesses deeper into the motor to decrease cavitation. Underdrive pulley helps with that too but that's at high RPM. Sounds like yours just needs a good burping.

 

[joe117]

Mary, do you really cruise at 75 mph in fourth?

 

[BigsViper]

TTT...........

 

[genXgts]

Bigs, lick the cooling issue yet or what???

Took me a few days, but I came down from my Cdn **** buzz, things are clearer now:

The Upgrades section on this site state nothing about having the car running. However a search on this site (Hi Marv), came up with a few threads about it running during the burping. I ran my car on the burping and had mucho air come up like bubbling crude, hmmm how appropriate. With the waterpump circulating the fluid and the cap off, allowing the air out I found luck.

Maybe a voice of years of burping experience can chime in here, with the motor not running a can't see the squish the rad hose theory do much to the fluid beyond around the hose area, ie, the 2 gallons elsewhere???

 

[BigsViper]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VIPRGTS:
\|/. / /
190
(.=normal hot)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's what I'm seeing:

\|/ ./ /

.= my needle when hot

(Thanks for the great way to illustrate!)

 

[Ulysses]

Bigs,

Did a little took note of some temps for ya this Wednesday. At idle, I watched for when the fan kicked on.

\|/..../

..^ fan turned on at 1:00 mark.

.^ fan shut off at 12:00 mark.

Got in at went for some mountain driving. Temps in the mountains were at 95 Deg F, and it was HUMID.

Most of the time, at cruising or stop and go I was either at the 12:00 or 1:00 mark. Then I hit the mountains, oh boy. Most of the time I was in 3rd and revving around 3000 RPM +. Temps under load went all the way to the 2:00 mark until I dropped to lower RPMs.

\|/.../

......^ Mountain driving.

Got off the mountain and back to cruising speeds, stayed around the 12:00 to 1:00 mark. The car has had the coolant changed out recently and has been burped. I added a couple of bottles of water wetter also.

 

[artman]

Added two bottles of water wetter during my last coolant change a month ago and my needle now stays rock solid in the middle all day long in 90deg weather with AC blowing. There has been some flack over water wetter, but I truly believe the stuff works.

 

[Gavin]

BIGSVIPER
1. Sean Roe override switch - turn the fan on any time you want to drop the temps - in stop and go traffic it will keep you cool -
2. if you plan on tracking the car - Seans underfacia air dam kit does the job there

email me if you want to know more
Gavin

 

[BigsViper]

Thanks for all the help guys. I'm going to check with Gavin on the Sean Roe stuff. Is the fan switch a tough install? Looks good? Thanks Bigs

 

[Y2K5SRT]

Okay, like Bigs I have been watching my car get a bit warmer lately. Same basic range as well. Decided to go the burping route for starters. The surge tank (with the pressure cap) was full and the overflow tank was at the cold level. Where it should have been, I think. I went ahead anyway. Couldn't get much, if any, air to come up as the fluid in the tank would come close to overflowing. Used the turkey baster to pull a couple cups out of the tank so I could burp it more forcefully. Although I could hear what sounded like air going through the radiator, I could not hear or see any bubbles in the tank. Ten minutes of this and I gave up. Went to add the coolant/water back in and noticed that it had quite a bit of sediment in it. A combination of small blue-green flakes (what copper looks like when it oxidizes) and white flakes. Mind you, this engine went through Arrow about 16 months ago (12,000 miles ago). Should I get the system flushed? Also, when I put the cap back on I noticed there is a lot of air in the surge tank itself, even with the cap neck overflowing. It appears to be compartmentalized. Is that the way it works or should I somehow get ALL of the air out of those areas?

My car has NEVER run cool since I brought it out of the factory with seven miles on it. Usually at the third hash mark in the middle (1:00) and upwards. Occasionally it will get so warm that the A/C shuts down. Don't know if it is supposed to, but I will be watching the temps climb and then the A/C quits. And yes, I have since replaced the compressor. Mind you, I have NEVER let it get close to the "red zone" or overheat. I still can't help wonder if I can't get it a little cooler overall. I used Water Wetter before the rebuild and it didn't seem to do much one way or another. May try it again just for the heck of it. Any other suggestions?

Chris

 

[Steve-Indy]

You might ask your tech to check it out,,,maybe do a flush. Many are starting to think that the cooling system needs attention YEARLY...not just every 2 years as stated. And I for one have found it pays to check out your pressure bottle cap as well. I also NOW realize just what a BEAR it is to PROPERLY refill a Viper...ESPECIALLY a Gen I, to avoid air pockets and hot spots. I personally have found 4-6 year old Vipers at the gatherings that have the ORIGINAL coolant on board !! It's a funny (not so funny REALLY) that so many of US have been taught to pay SO MUCH attention to the frequency of oil changes, and, at the same time neglect the coolant. I'm beginning to get REAL PARTICULAR about this in our Vipers !! And, while I'm at it....differential fluid, tranny fluid, power steering fluid, clutch fluid, and brake fluid NEED REGULAR attention based on driving habits, fluid condition, and TIME. Flipping through a service manual is an eye opener.

 

[Ulysses]

Bigs, ever solve the problem?

I was not happy with the results that I had after burping the Viper. I thought it was still running too hot. I remembered someone posting about burping using a cylinder coming out of the surge tank filled to a certain level above the surge tank water level when full. I decided to give it a try. I cut the bottom off one of those large spray bottles with the goose neck top. I built up the goose neck with duct tape for a tight fit, inverted it, stuck it into the surge tank opening and filled the goose neck with 50/50 mix. No leakage. Then proceeded to burp as normal. Surprise! A lot more air came out of the system. As soon as the air stopped coming out, I siphoned off the rest of the water above the surge tank opening.

This is what I had before.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
\|/..../

..^ fan turned on at 1:00 mark.

.^ fan shut off at 12:00 mark.

Got in at went for some mountain driving. Temps in the mountains were at 95 Deg F, and it was HUMID.

Most of the time, at cruising or stop and go I was either at the 12:00 or 1:00 mark. Then I hit the mountains, oh boy. Most of the time I was in 3rd and revving around 3000 RPM +. Temps under load
went all the way to the 2:00 mark until I dropped to lower RPMs.

\|/.../

......^ Mountain driving.

Got off the mountain and back to cruising speeds, stayed around the 12:00 to 1:00 mark.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At Idle I still had this stuation:

\|/..../

..^ fan turned on at 1:00 mark.

.^ fan shut off at 12:00 mark.

The big change was when driving at 3000+ RPMs. I never went past this mark:

\|/..../
...^

I never get near the 2:00 mark now. I did notice that when the engine initially came to temp that some coolant was forced out, but not enough to be concerned about. Maybe I need a new radiator cap? At any rate, I am running much cooler now, even with the AC on. Temps were in the high 80's and the humidity was high.

 

[Y2K5SRT]

The hose in question is on the front driver's side right above the cross brace. I use two hands and was in danger of overflowing the surge tank. I think I understand what Ulysses did with his duct-taped "tube" (basically, he temporarily extended the surge tank capacity upward) and may try that. I know I heard LOT of something in the radiator when I did the squeezing, so can only assume it was air.

Ulysses, feel free to post a picture or additional information!

Chris

 

[Ulysses]

I just got home and the engine is hot so the third pic shows how it would be inserted if the cap were off. My apologies. I would fill the goose neck to where it ends right where the cylindrical part begins so as to have enough empty volume to hold the back wash of coolant that occurs during burping. As the gooseneck level goes down, I would replace it with 50/50 mix. If someone with better knowledge knows of any negatives doing it this way, please post.

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