C6 to **** the doors off competition- By Bob Lutz

[Mopar]

I found this rather interesting, only time will tell if it's complete B.S.


http://www.edmunds.com/advice/specialreports/articles/100660/article.html?tid=edmunds.h..reviews..18.*

Special Reports

Bob Lutz Interview
We talk with the General's Car Czar
By Karl Brauer
Date Posted 10-21-2003


Q: Edmunds.com: You did the Viper during your stint at Chrysler, and now Neil Hannemann, who led the Viper team, is doing the GT at Ford. Does GM need a Viper/GT class vehicle, or is the Corvette strong enough to handle that role?

A:Let me tell you that the Corvette C6 will have versions where we confidently predict it will **** the doors off of both the cars that you just named. The current Z06, with 400 horsepower, on the Gingerman Raceway, laps faster with its 400 horsepower than the new Viper does with 500. So other than just brutal straightline acceleration, the Z06 is faster today. Clearly the C6 Corvette, without giving anything away, is going to be a major step forward in vehicle mass, dimensions, handling, braking and, most important of all, power-to-weight ratio. So I think whatever gap exists now is going to be eliminated — in total performance. I think we'll match the competition in acceleration, and we will beat them in on-road handling. And if the Z06 version of the C6 is not enough to do it, we've got a few tricks up our sleeve, which we're already investigating. But it will always be Corvette-based.

 

[onerareviper]

Lutz will produce a mean performing C6 (Z06 or whatever)Vette. You'll see.... Now how it is going to look is the BIG question.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

This is Great News-PVO will now have a valid reason to bump the total performance. Viper must remain King of The Hill or is is not a Viper!

 

[onerareviper]

Fred,

I couldn't agree more.... I just hope we don't wait too long and have to play catch up for a few years. Hopefully PVO has a few tricks up the old sleeve.

 

[Viperfreak2]

Good interview. Long, but interesting. Funny thing is, he claims the new GM is equal to or better than the Camry's of the world. He said the quality gap is gone and we just need to be educated to this fact. He said the same corporate PR BS 20 years ago at Chrysler about the K-cars. The current Z06 is faster around Gingerman than the SRT-10? Someone please take their SRT to this track and post some numbers!

 

[FranciscoR.]

So the C6 will undoubtedly be a massive HP machine. Do you think the Viper gods will produce a production 600hp or more vehicle?

 

[SRT10]

So the C6 will undoubtedly be a massive HP machine.

How is the C6 going to get this massive power from an LS1?

 

[Mopar]

So the C6 will undoubtedly be a massive HP machine.

How is the C6 going to get this massive power from an LS1?

Well a heads and cam swap on a LS1 will EASILY net you 400RWHP. The C6 will debute with the LS2 engine, rumors say it will be the 6.0L found in the trucks, but aluminum. The 6.0L block can be bored to 427ci, so finding power will NOT be a problem, question is will they do it??

 

[Smog Dog]

So the C6 will undoubtedly be a massive HP machine.

How is the C6 going to get this massive power from an LS1?

Well a heads and cam swap on a LS1 will EASILY net you 400RWHP. The C6 will debute with the LS2 engine, rumors say it will be the 6.0L found in the trucks, but aluminum. The 6.0L block can be bored to 427ci, so finding power will NOT be a problem, question is will they do it??

Well, GM did a paint job for the 50th Anniversery in 2003, and another paint job for the Z06 in 2004. Someday they may try to address other issues, or maybe they will keep coming up with creative paint jobs.

 

[sachin]

im suprised thhat no one has said anything about the z06 beating the srt/10 around gingerman? I thought that the srt would kill the z06 around the track.

 

[Mopar]

im suprised thhat no one has said anything about the z06 beating the srt/10 around gingerman? I thought that the srt would kill the z06 around the track.

You have to consider the track. On a tight course the Z06 has the weight advantage where as a loose course the SRT/10 has the power advantage.

Some can HATE the Z06 all they want, but you can't deney they do handle well.

 

[Viperfreak2]

I don't think anyone hates it, just competetive jabbing. I think it's PR to say the current Z06 is faster at one particular race track. We all know driver skill (and the fact the SRT-10 has only been qround less than a year) has something to do with times.

 

[fluffy]

What does weight have to do with anything? A lighter car will transition better and stop better, everything else being equal. However the SRT corners, transitions and brakes better than the Z06 despite the higher weight. It also accelerates better. The Z06 is narrower, which is an advantage on an autocross course where the angle that one takes the cones can have an effect on times, but not on a road course. The only area that I see the Z06 on top of the SRT is in ease of drivability due to stability and traction control, in which case it is the driver that makes the difference.

I don't see how the Z06 will be faster around any real track given proficient drivers. The SRT can carry more speed farther into the corners, can hold a higher speed through the corners, can transition just as well, can accelerate faster out of corners and reach higher speeds, faster, on the straights.

 

[Frank Parise]

Some actual lap times from Viper Days at Gingerman from 2 professional drivers familiar with their cars:

1999: Jim Minneker(pro)-Mallett Corvette 1.29.095
Mike McCann-Unlimited Viper 1.26.060
2001: Mike McCann-GT-1 Viper 1.27.448
2002: Mike McCann-GT-1 Viper 1.25.556
2003: Mike McCann-Comp Coupe 1.25.197

Jim Minneker was a factory driver for Chevrolet and this is the fastest lap time ever set at Viper Days gingerman in a Corvette. I only compare it to Mike McCann's times since he was the fastest of the production vipers in those years, however, no less than a dozen different viper drivers have handily beaten the Minneker/Mallett Corvette record.

If Lutz says the ZO6 beat the SRT-10, I believe him, but I would like to know the details. A Production ZO6 would not have been competitive with the Minneker/Mallett Corvette, which was a heavily modified (including motor) road race car, similar to a GT-1 Viper.

 

[Snakester]

So the C6 will undoubtedly be a massive HP machine.

How is the C6 going to get this massive power from an LS1?

Well a heads and cam swap on a LS1 will EASILY net you 400RWHP. The C6 will debute with the LS2 engine, rumors say it will be the 6.0L found in the trucks, but aluminum. The 6.0L block can be bored to 427ci, so finding power will NOT be a problem, question is will they do it??

Well, GM did a paint job for the 50th Anniversery in 2003, and another paint job for the Z06 in 2004. Someday they may try to address other issues, or maybe they will keep coming up with creative paint jobs.

Yeah, I thought that the paint job and magnetic shocks was a total let-down for a 50th Anniversary Corvette!
The least that they should have done was to put the 405HP LS6 motor in the coupe/convertible to make them truly special. But NO!

Still, the LS2 in the C6 will have at least 400HP, and possibly as much as 430HP.
The engine planned for the C6-Z06 is the LS7, which has a minimum rating of 455HP, and will likley put out 500HP for the C6-Z06. That engine could easily be bored out to 427ci and tweaked to make even more power, but maybe GM will just introduce a new C5R paint color scheme and add a carbon fiber trunk for $10K more in 2006 instead.

-Dean.

 

[Mike Brunton]

So the C6 will undoubtedly be a massive HP machine.

How is the C6 going to get this massive power from an LS1?

Well a heads and cam swap on a LS1 will EASILY net you 400RWHP. The C6 will debute with the LS2 engine, rumors say it will be the 6.0L found in the trucks, but aluminum. The 6.0L block can be bored to 427ci, so finding power will NOT be a problem, question is will they do it??

That is irrelevant, IMO. You can get 600RWHP+ from a Viper engine, but so what? That doesn't take cost and, more importantly, reliability into account. I don't know any tuners that would happily give a 3/36 warranty on their biggest and best and most highly tuned package knowing people will beat on them day in and day out. Raising horsepower decreases reliability and increases cost. Thats why displacement is an "easy out" to more power. Yeah, maybe GM "could" get 450RWHP from a 427cid V8, but I don't think will ever even come close to that.

 

[Paul Hawker]

You must watch the words that Lutz used very carefully.

"A:Let me tell you that the Corvette C6 will have" versions " where we confidently predict it will **** the doors off of both the cars that you just named."

He did not say that the base production model will be faster, just that they will have special versions with enhanced performance. Might not see these "special" versions for several years. He could even be refering to a LeMans racing version.
I expect the Viper to still be King of the Hill for many many years to come.

 

[GR8_ASP]

He may have chosen those words wisely. But these words are just plain wrong:

"The current Z06, with 400 horsepower, on the Gingerman Raceway, laps faster with its 400 horsepower than the new Viper does with 500. So other than just brutal straightline acceleration, the Z06 is faster today."

No two ways about it that it is not true. Not without throwing an anchor on the SRT.

 

[MILES42]

I guess i tend to look at what he said a little differently, i like Corvettes a lot and i am looking forward to the new C6 as well as the new Z06, but wouldnt a true competitor to the 2003 Viper Convert be a Z06 Convert ? I dont think Dodge did too bad in the weight department with the new Viper considering it is a Ragtop and has 8 liter plus Truck Engine, yet it still weighs less than the new Ford GT ? I'm sure the new C6 will run between 12.5 and 12.3secs in the 1/4 mile and have a top speed over 185mph, but Dodge hasnt released a Coupe version of the SRT-10 Viper yet ? I do believe Dodge is sitting back holding that trump card in the form of a yet to be unreleased Viper Coupe

 

[GR8_ASP]

I agree with everything you said except the truck motor part of it. The all aluminum 8.3L shares almost nothing with the now cancelled 8.0L iron truck engine. Unless of course bore centers (i.e. measurements and not hardware), etc. are included. But if you do that the just about all of the big 3 I-6 through V-10 engines are "truck" engines. Using that logic you can say the Vette uses a 1955 Chevy Belair engine. Correct?

 

[Snakester]

Yeah, the "truck engine" myth dies hard doesn't it.
Along with the myths that the Viper doesn't handle well, and gets much worse gas mileage than other cars with similar performance (the Lambo Murcielago gets 9/13MPG!).

But I do agree that the vast majority of people fail to compare the SRT-10 Viper against other high performance convertibles like the Ferrari 360 Spyder, and the BMW Z8.
Hopefully we will soon see a comparison against the new Porsche 911 Turbo Cabrio.

-Dean.

 

[Tom Shapiro]

Frank, here is a more recent lap time for a modified Z06 with a very good driver. At this year's IL VCA Viper War 8 event, John Boos driving Ron Mark's Unlimited class Corvette Z06 ran a 1:27.653 at Gingerman Raceway. John and Ron came in 2nd to IL VCA club member Ron Adee at this years One Lap of America.

 

[SnakeEye]

I think what's most important is what is available today and not so much what may be available tomorrow. Too many darn things can happen between those two points. That said, competition between car companies generally benefits us all by bringing out superior product. So I welcome Lutz's words of encouragement about the C6 and it's performance edition. There's no question that Dodge has has raised the bar (big-time) with the SRT-10. Don't get me wrong I love the Z06 (I have one!) but this time around GM is going to have to offer something much more dramatic than just a stickered pinstripe car (ala 2004 Z06) they've labeled a "special edition" to keep up. To that I say, bring 'em on ... until such time, I'll be happily driving my new '04 SRT-10!

 

[Drag Racing Consultant]

Competition for the Viper is very healthy! I would think everyone would be happy that the C6 is going to be fast and lite weight. If Chevy steps up you know the coupe will be a step up as well. Better for both Corvette and Viper enthusiasts!

 

[Phoenix SRT]

Frank and Tom posted some interesting information regarding lap times of Corvettes and Vipers in various states of modification. However, I am interested to know what a stock Z06 will turn at Gingerman (and other tracks, for that matter) and what a stock SRT will turn at those same tracks.

My impression from the Z06 vs. SRT articles that I've read is that the Z06 gives up little, if anything, to the SRT in overall performance. In some categories, the SRT is quicker and in others it is not. In still other categories, it's a wash. Therefore, it wouldn't surprise me all that much if the two cars were about equal in lap times. Or, worse yet, if the Z06 was a bit quicker. I'd sure like to see some actual lap times, though.

Either way, why is it that there is even room for this debate? Why isn't the Viper such a far and away better performer than the Z06 that there is no room for this discussion?

The Viper costs much more than the Corvette...and there can be no disagreement on that. Further, the SRT is a much bigger pain in the butt to drive (slow or fast). It is a more brutal, less comfortable car. You can't see behind you hardly at all; with the top down, the cockpit is hot enough to cook a turkey on the center console, and in general, the Corvette is just easier to drive.

Sure, the Corvette is a Corvette and that is a problem all by itself regardless of performance. And some people may prefer the more brutal nature of the Viper. And the difference in the purchase price may well be worth it considering the limited (relatively speaking) availability of the Viper. But still, when the Viper costs a bunch more and makes fewer concessions to creature comforts and driveability than does the Z06, why is the performance of the Viper not miles ahead of the Corvette?

We love our Vipers, but many of us are wondering.

 

[Walt McFarland]

Let me refer all to the June 03 article of Motor Trend, p.62 and the article called "speeding." This article has been cited on this board numerous times.

In sum, Justin Bell--a guy who we can all agree is unbiased and can certainly get the best from a car--drove a gaggle of neat cars (lambo, Ferrari, Jag, etc.) through a variety of tests and the Z06 wasn't even close. In fact, it's overall performance while respectable did not stand out. To my point:

-0-60: SRT/10 3.94; Z06 4.29
-1/4: 11,77 and 123.6MPH and 12.44 and 116.5MPH
-0-100-0: 12.17 and 13.92

And on and on. Same driver, same track, same day. It's not just that the Viper was better in every single category (except the 600 ft slalom where it tied the Z06) but there were often several other cars that finished after the SRT/10 and before the Viper.

The Z06 is a great car and maybe the best performance value out there. The SRT/10 just happens to be in a different class--at least for now. LOL.

 

[SRT10]

Phoenix SRT, if you want to see stock for stock results go here..

http://www.motortrend.com/features/scenes/112_0306_spdtest/

The SRT beats the Z06 in every catagory except the 600 ft slalom, which was a tie.

So to quote you.."Why isn't the Viper such a far and away better performer than the Z06 that there is no room for this discussion?"... there is no room for discussion because the answer is it does!


Hey Walt, you beat my post by 2 minutes.

 

[Snakester]

With SVT Cobra substitution:

My impression from the SVT Cobra vs. Corvette articles that I've read is that the Cobra gives up little, if anything, to the regular Corvette in overall performance. In some categories, the Corvette is quicker and in others it is not. In still other categories, it's a wash. Therefore, it wouldn't surprise me all that much if the two cars were about equal in lap times. Or, worse yet, if the Cobra was a bit quicker. I'd sure like to see some actual lap times, though.

Either way, why is it that there is even room for this debate? Why isn't the Corvette such a far and away better performer than the Cobra that there is no room for this discussion?

The Corvette costs much more than the Cobra...and there can be no disagreement on that ($48,000 to $34,000). Further, the Corvette is a bigger pain in the butt to drive (slow or fast). It is a more brutal, less comfortable car overall.

Sure, the Cobra is a Ford and that is a problem all by itself regardless of performance. And some people may prefer the more sporty-performance nature of the Corvette. And the difference in the purchase price may well be worth it considering the limited (relatively speaking) availability of the Corvette. But still, when the Corvette costs a bunch more and makes fewer concessions to creature comforts and driveability than does the SVT Cobra, why is the performance of the Corvette not miles ahead of the Mustang?


...and with Lamborghini substitution:

My impression from the Murcielago vs. SRT articles that I've read is that the SRT-10 Viper gives up little, if anything, to the Murcielago in overall performance. In some categories, the Viper is quicker and in others it is not.
In still other categories, it's a wash. Therefore, it wouldn't surprise me all that much if the two cars were about equal in lap times. Or, worse yet, if the Viper was a bit quicker. I'd sure like to see some actual lap times, though.

Either way, why is it that there is even room for this debate? Why isn't the Lamborghini such a far and away better performer than the Viper that there is no room for this discussion?

The Murcielago costs much more than the Viper...and there can be no disagreement on that ($300,000 to $85,000). Further, the Lambo is a much bigger pain in the butt to maintain, and more vulnerable to abuse. You can't see behind you hardly at all.

Sure, the Viper is a Dodge regardless of performance. And some people may prefer the higher status of the Lambo. And the difference in the purchase price may well be worth it considering the limited (relatively speaking) availability of the Murcielago. But still, when the Lamborghini costs a bunch more and makes fewer concessions to personal comforts (convertible) and durability than does the Viper, why is the performance of the Murcielago not miles ahead of the Viper?

-----------------------------------------

While I wholeheartedly agree that the Viper needs to raise the performance bar beyond the reach of it's competitors, the actual performance capabilities of the Viper compared to it's competition are always changing. Porsche came out with their GT3, Lamborghini came out with their much less expensive Gallardo. Whereas the NSX has not remained competitive performance-wise.

 

[Phoenix SRT]

Lutz seems to think that the Z06 is quicker around GingerMan than the Viper and Frank Parise is willing to take Lutz' word for it (see Frank's post, above) and that is good enough for me. Also, judging from all the discussion concerning whether the SRT outperforms the Z06 or not, the subject apparently is open for discussion.

Different magazines get different results and it seems to me that because the Viper offers far fewer compromises to civility than does the Corvette and costs far more, the Viper should decisively bury the Z06 by such a wide margin that different tests by different magazines should all, inevitably come to the same conclusion: the SRT is on a different plain from the Corvette. As much as I love my Viper, that isn't the case.

And I'm not at all sure of the point of substituting the different cars for the SRT and the Z06 in the post above. That logic may apply. So what? The fact remains that the SRT isn't all that much, if any, quicker than the Z06 and it should be given the higher cost and fewer compromise nature of the Viper.

Hey, I'm asserting that DC should make the Viper quicker than it is and I'm getting flak for it! Who on earth doesn't want more performance from their Viper?

 

[Snakester]

Yes, but you are also asserting that the Z06 is as fast or faster than the Viper is, and that's not really true overall.
A good driver in a Z06 can be faster than a middling/poor driver in a Viper, but having great drivers in both cars show up the power advantage of the Viper, as the Motor Trend test shows. Despite the Viper being a convertible.

Certain tracks favor small/light cars and on some tracks (including autocross) you can be faster in a Miata or Honda S2000 than a Corvette or a Viper. But it's not really representative of the car's overall performance capabilities.

It does say a lot that the Z06's performance is close enough to the Viper's that a better skilled driver can make the Corvette faster, and with the C6 coming out, DCX needs to raise the performance of the Viper beyond the grasp of the Corvette, just as the Corvette needs to raise it's performance so that it's not directly compared to the $34K SVT Cobra.

So we agree that the Viper needs more power, but I don't agree that the Z06 is a faster or more coveted car than the Viper.

-Dean.