Calling all track rats about my brakes

[Detlef]

Last fall I installed the SRT big brake kit onto my 2001 GTS. I took it to the track for the first time. And while it stopped great, the brakes felt very rough on the way back home. I took the pads out and they looked like this. They are the Brakeman #3 and the rotors are the EBC ones. They don’t look right, they are crumbling. I understand they get hot during track time, but is this normal?
Looking for advice. Here are pictures of the both front brakes, left and right. Rears look similar.

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

Very overheated pads, you might want to try a more track only pad or get a lot more air to the rotor/caliper with ducting.

 

[Detlef]

Hhhhmmmmm. I never had this problem with the stock GenII braking system at this same track. And the BM3 pads are supposed to be great for the track. What other pads do you suggest?

 

[dave6666]

I never had this problem with the stock GenII braking system at this same track.

And you don't have Gen 2 brakes any more.

You've made an increase in the braking surface area that negates the old set of math equations (heat in minus heat extracted) that kept your brakes cooled. As Mark said above, time for...

So how did your lap times improve?

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

With the upgrade you probably started taking more aggressive entry and relied on your brakes even more than before. You may actually be over driving now because you think you can. In reality the brakes will be similar but the Gen3 will "last longer" without fade. BUT if you abuse them because they are bigger then the problem will materialize into this. FWIW...

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

Also, even if you move to the #4 compound Brakeman's the heat generated without proper ducting will just destroy other things such as rotors and bearings. It is a balanced system that gets you the best of both worlds.

 

[Detlef]

mjorgensen: Yeah, that all makes sense. Also being at altitude makes things worse for cooling. Oh well, $500 in pads down the drain after 1 event

I've been reading about this Cone brake duct kit, but only found 2 pictures. Might have to investigate that one a little more.

dave6666 : I wasn't timing my laps, but I certainly picked up top speed in the straights because I was able to brake later. Before I got up to 125'ish and now I felt comfortable getting up to 131'ish.

 

[Catwood]

every project begats another project

signed...carl ex-track rat

 

[Detlef]

Just got off the phone with the Brakeman company and they concur that I exceeded temps on the 1200 degree BM#3 pads. Sheesh, maybe I should stick to the GTR2 racing simulator. It's alot less expensive.

 

[JonB]

Sorry for the belated entry......

Did you do a proportioning valve? You say the rears look similiar.....my not be relevant

The extra friction = extra heat, and these BM3 pads are Really Cooked! The BM3 is OK to drive on the street, operates at 200 to 1200f. The BM4 are NOT ok for the street, they require more heat and are too "grabby" when cold under 400f.

We will be happy to arrange a 50% off your NEXT set of Brakeman 3 or 4 for your trouble, but this indeed was a 'no cooling' issue. We have the CONE COOLING KITS on our site as well, and you could even add the "Porsche Ducts" along with it...

 

[YBYA4RE]

Detlef,

Do you still have your original wheel bearings for the front? Mine is shot on the left front, and I am looking for a replacement. Wondering if you know of a source, or if you replaced yours with the brake kit upgrade? Although after reading your experience with the heat, the originals are probably cooked also? If you would let me know, I am at 970 532 4473. Tks Guy

 

[TexasPettey]

One of my first mods for the track was a set of cone brake coolers. It will substantially increase the longevity of the pads, even on stock brake calipers/rotors. It pays for itself quickly, because you'll get more life out of a set of pads.

 

[Bugeater]

What are your street pads? Yeah, they looked like they got hot, but it also looks like there is uneven pad transfer. Looks like you were using the rotors prior to the event with a different pad for the street. What I mean is that when you stick the new pads on you need to break them in which requires some of the new pad material to transfer to the rotor. Usually done by a few iterations of 100-20 braking. The "rough feeling" you describe sounds like you never got an even pad transfer by super heating the material and passing/creating a thin application of it on the rotor. This reduces brake shudder and ensures the entire surface area of the pad is being used. If not, spotting occurs and you can create "hotspots" on the pad.

I have found going from one material pad to another this operation of ensuring even pad transfer to the rotor is more critical than if you are just swapping out an old pad for an new pad of the same compound. Oh yeah - your pads are not shot. Looks like you abused them some, but you can still use them. You would need to get even material transfer to the rotor though.

Suggestion - if these are your street/track compromise pad disregard my next sentence. If they are track only, it looks like you are actually using your brakes and I would HIGHLY suggest a better front compound (BM3's are fine for the rear). MINTEX F2 coumpound or PFC 01 compound are suggested. Much much much better than BM3s. Been there done that. BM4's are ok, but a distant 3rd choice.


Going deeper into a brakezone doesnt necessarily cook your pads or your braking system more. Its generally the opposite. Applying 70% brake say from marker 6 will generate more heat over a larger area for a much longer period of time than say applying 90% brake torque at marker 3 for 1/3 the time. Time under braking and intervals between braking events are a greater factor for fade, heat soak etc.

Comparing this setup to a GENII and thinking it would not cool as well is crazy! Its better in all areas:
Larger caliper mass/material for heat dispersion.
Larger rotor mass and surface area for heat dispersion.
Larger pad surface area for heat dispersion.

His wheel bearings/hubs are probably fine. Its not a bad idea to check them, but they are not going to fail as a result of this event due to overheating the pads. If they havent been checked/repacked in recent years, not a bad idea though.

 

[Detlef]

• Hhhhm, I put the new BM3 pads on these new rotors all at the same time, so no different pads here. I did the bedding as per the BM3 instructions, although they talked about 40 to almost stopping and not the 100 to 20 stops.
• As for the ducting, I've been thinking about it some more. Since both the front and rears were cooked the same and only Cone front ducts are available for a street GTS, I am not sure that will solve my problem for the rears.
• I am so confused

What are your street pads? Yeah, they looked like they got hot, but it also looks like there is uneven pad transfer. Looks like you were using the rotors prior to the event with a different pad for the street. What I mean is that when you stick the new pads on you need to break them in which requires some of the new pad material to transfer to the rotor. Usually done by a few iterations of 100-20 braking. The "rough feeling" you describe sounds like you never got an even pad transfer by super heating the material and passing/creating a thin application of it on the rotor. This reduces brake shudder and ensures the entire surface area of the pad is being used. If not, spotting occurs and you can create "hotspots" on the pad.

I have found going from one material pad to another this operation of ensuring even pad transfer to the rotor is more critical than if you are just swapping out an old pad for an new pad of the same compound. Oh yeah - your pads are not shot. Looks like you abused them some, but you can still use them. You would need to get even material transfer to the rotor though.

Suggestion - if these are your street/track compromise pad disregard my next sentence. If they are track only, it looks like you are actually using your brakes and I would HIGHLY suggest a better front compound (BM3's are fine for the rear). MINTEX F2 coumpound or PFC 01 compound are suggested. Much much much better than BM3s. Been there done that. BM4's are ok, but a distant 3rd choice.


Going deeper into a brakezone doesnt necessarily cook your pads or your braking system more. Its generally the opposite. Applying 70% brake say from marker 6 will generate more heat over a larger area for a much longer period of time than say applying 90% brake torque at marker 3 for 1/3 the time. Time under braking and intervals between braking events are a greater factor for fade, heat soak etc.

Comparing this setup to a GENII and thinking it would not cool as well is crazy! Its better in all areas:
Larger caliper mass/material for heat dispersion.
Larger rotor mass and surface area for heat dispersion.
Larger pad surface area for heat dispersion.

His wheel bearings/hubs are probably fine. Its not a bad idea to check them, but they are not going to fail as a result of this event due to overheating the pads. If they havent been checked/repacked in recent years, not a bad idea though.

 

[Bugeater]

Detlef,
40 - 0 is worthless. That may be good for gradual break-in for the street but that is assuming your stop-and-go intervals are frequent, short, and dont require anywhere near 100% brake torque (as you will see at the track). 40 - 0 wont get the temps up high enough for some of the pad compound to pass and bed itself on the rotor. You basically need to perform roughly 8 or so iterations of 100+ to 20. You need the temps up for them to bed properly!

For your benefit, I went out and looked at all my used BM3 pads. They ALL look like yours when it comes to burnt/peeling compound edging and brown coloration. They are not as tapered as yours and the pad material isnt "spotty" but overall they look as cooked as yours. In the 7 years or so I have run them (originally in the front as well, but now only in rear) they tend to wear like that.

Now if I were you I would still try to use them - you mentioned you noticed the "rough driving" on the drive home not on the track, correct? Was that brake shudder?

I had a similar experience with my street M5 - I didnt get the new pads bedded in on saturday at the track. Drove like **** (horrible shudder) that night. The next day I continued to hit em hard in the brake zones and over time they finally bed in correctly.

If you dont plan on using the pads, please send em to me! I'll use em on my racecar...

Good luck.

 

[Detlef]

I've got another track day coming up and will try that 100-20 procedure on the existing BM3's, just for kicks. Hopefully I won't get caught by the local servers and protectors.

 

[Viper X]

Detlef,

Bugeater is correct about everything. I ran BM3's on the front too initially, then switched to PFCs for the front, BM3's to the rear. I also eventually added the Cone cooling kit (from Parts Rack) which works very well. With this set up and proper bedding of the brakes before you get to the track, you will eliminate most of the heat related issues. Don't forget the Motul 600 fluid.

Instructions vary for proper bedding and I don't go 100 to 20 mph, but I do go about 80 to 5 mph 8 to 10 times with new pads. The new brake pads start to smoke pretty good if you are doing this correctly. You need to get enough heat into them so that they transfer pad material onto the new rotors - then you need to let them cool.

I eventually switched to Porterfield R4's for the rears as I didn't like the way the BM3's looked after I got a bit faster - they always seemed to look "cooked", just like yours, but they did continue to work.

Good luck,

Dan

 

[Detlef]

Bugeater and Dan,

Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it.

 

[Fast Viper Dan]

After I switched from BM3's to Porterfields I tryed BM3's again.
I'm sure some track rat's like BM3's but I won't use them again. I push hard and found the Porterfield R4's hold up much better.
Maybe just my driving style?
JMO

 

[CCBrian]

After I switched from BM3's to Porterfields I tryed BM3's again.
I'm sure some track rat's like BM3's but I won't use them again. I push hard and found the Porterfield R4's hold up much better.
Maybe just my driving style?
JMO

Dan, you have a driving style??? Hell, you don't even have a race car anymore...LOL! I agree, the Porterfields do a great job-I had this problem with a Subaru STi and the R4's were great-original Brembo pads were gone after three open track sessions.
Brian

 

[Viper X]

I brake hard too and agree that the R4's hold up better than the BM3's.

 

[ViperGeorge]

I like the R4s and the Perf. Friction 01s better than the BMs and the Raybestos I've tried. The R4s and the PF01s don't seem to be as sensitive to bedding procedure either. Let's face it in the Northeast its hard to find a piece of road where you can go 80 (or 100) to 5 eight times without someone reporting you to the constables. The BMs and the Raybestos both shuddered under braking despite my bedding them in to the point of smoking. Not a fan. I use the R4S on my street Saleen and they are great.

 

[wastntim]

I upgraded my brakes in my gen II and ended up burning everything up front. Rotars, dust boots on Everything. If you upgrade your brakes on a Gen II and are going to track it with aggressive pads you HAVE TO install some form of ducting. I believe Gen III's come with ducting in place. I just don't think the gen II gets enough air to the brakes and the wheelwell to keep up with the additional heat. Since I installed the cone duct cooling kit from partsrack, I have had zero problems with the brakes.

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

Detlef,

Give me a call , but with the Cone Kit ( which was taken from a Bob Woodhouse design by Henry , with Bob's okay ) you problems will likely go away. I would go through pads like crazy with my 2000 GTS until I installed a similar unit we built here at Woodhouse. Best example is listed below;

Mid Ohio --- no ducting and over two days of track time.
1. Was on my third set of pads by the time I left on the front end, and even went through one set in the rear. Flushed the fluids and went to Castrol SRF as I was boiling the fluid. Went through 1 set of rotors.
2. The next year I went back with ducting and used the same front pads all weekend .
3. Next Viper Days weekend at Mid America Motorplex, I spent the entire day , Friday , on the same pads and finally changed them after the first session on Saturday.

The entire time I was running Brakeman 3s and the linear feel of the pads is great and for non ABS cars it even telegraphs right front tire lock-up. You are obviously going faster , which means more heat and with the design of the Gen IIs , the airflow is extremely poor and doesn't really get to the brakes. Spend the money on a kit and you will be fine.

Sincerely,
Bill Pemberton
Woodhouse
1-800-889-1893

 

[JonB]

MINTEX VCC PADS are working well up front on SRT10 and ACR and VCC, with Brakeman 3 rears. Great combo.

The MINTEX PRICE under $200/set is a lot of pad for the money.....

 

[VIPER GTSR 91]

Just got off the phone with the Brakeman company and they concur that I exceeded temps on the 1200 degree BM#3 pads. Sheesh, maybe I should stick to the GTR2 racing simulator. It's alot less expensive.

True. A LOT LESS !!

 

[JonB]

The front pads are shown...what about rears? I suspect the Gen 3 SRT-add-on to a Gen 2 GTS is at play here in terms of improper brake bias. If you dont have enuf rear bias, you are overheating the fronts...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Detlef
Just got off the phone with the Brakeman company and they concur that I exceeded temps on the 1200 degree BM#3 pads. Sheesh, maybe I should stick to the GTR2 racing simulator. It's alot less expensive.

 

[Detlef]

Rears were the same and I have ABS so shouldn't be a bias issue.