Change brake fluid once a year?

[2001 Sapphire Blue]

Went to our Viper Club meeting last night and the head dude in charge said to change brake fluid once a year no matter how many miles you drive. Something about water absorbtion of 3% in the fluid. Anybody out there that can give guidance? By the way, Jerry, not that I don't believe you ... just wanted some other input. Certain brake fluid recommended?

 

[Ulysses]

Yes, brake fluid does absorb water. I try to change it out once a year or sooner if the fluid darkens considerably.

 

[Jay Lopez]

People who track their car change the brake fluid every event.

 

[jrkermode]

Changing brake fluid when it starts to get dark is sound advice. How often that is depends a lot on the humidity in the car's environment. Those who track their car will also be more sensitive to water absorption since all that water lowers the system boiling point.

 

[Ron]

Mercedes Benz recommends brake fluid changes every 24 months. I probably average 12 ~ 18 months unless a track day comes up then do a change just before and after.

It's easy to do and not only maintains boiling point performance (boiling fluid will not stop your car), but also prolongs brake line life as old fluid will corrode the lines from the inside out.

Castrol Synpower DOT 3/4 is a good cost effective fluid for street use. Castrol SRF expensive but nice insurance for the track, but max usage is limited to 18 months....

ARRANGED BY DRY BOILING POINT:

DRY:401F -- WET:284F --- DOT3 MINIMUM
DRY:446F -- WET:311F --- DOT4 MINIMUM
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5 MINIMUM
DRY:502F -- WET:343F --- VALVOLINE SYNPOWER
DRY:509F -- WET:365F --- MOTUL 5.1
DRY:527F -- WET:302F --- AP RACING 551
DRY:536F -- WET:392F --- ATE SUPERBLUE/TYP200
DRY:590F -- WET:410F --- AP RACING 600
DRY:590F -- WET:518F --- CASTROL SRF
DRY:593F -- WET:420F --- MOTUL RBF600
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- NEO-SYNTHETIC SUPER DOT 610
DRY:620F -- WET:425F --- COBALT SUPER XRF

ARRANGED BY WET BOILING POINT:

DRY:401F -- WET:284F --- DOT3 MINIMUM
DRY:527F -- WET:302F --- AP RACING 551
DRY:446F -- WET:311F --- DOT4 MINIMUM
DRY:502F -- WET:343F --- VALVOLINE SYNPOWER
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5 MINIMUM
DRY:509F -- WET:365F --- MOTUL 5.1
DRY:536F -- WET:392F --- ATE SUPERBLUE/TYP200
DRY:590F -- WET:410F --- AP RACING 600
DRY:593F -- WET:420F --- MOTUL RBF600
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- NEO-SYNTHETIC SUPER DOT 610
DRY:620F -- WET:425F --- COBALT SUPER XRF
DRY:590F -- WET:518F --- CASTROL SRF

(courtesy of "mph")

 

[2001 Sapphire Blue]

Mercedes Benz recommends brake fluid changes every 24 months. I probably average 12 ~ 18 months unless a track day comes up then do a change just before and after.

It's easy to do and not only maintains boiling point performance (boiling fluid will not stop your car), but also prolongs brake line life as old fluid will corrode the lines from the inside out.

Castrol Synpower DOT 3/4 is a good cost effective fluid for street use. Castrol SRF expensive but nice insurance for the track, but max usage is limited to 18 months....

ARRANGED BY DRY BOILING POINT:

DRY:401F -- WET:284F --- DOT3 MINIMUM
DRY:446F -- WET:311F --- DOT4 MINIMUM
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5 MINIMUM
DRY:502F -- WET:343F --- VALVOLINE SYNPOWER
DRY:509F -- WET:365F --- MOTUL 5.1
DRY:527F -- WET:302F --- AP RACING 551
DRY:536F -- WET:392F --- ATE SUPERBLUE/TYP200
DRY:590F -- WET:410F --- AP RACING 600
DRY:590F -- WET:518F --- CASTROL SRF
DRY:593F -- WET:420F --- MOTUL RBF600
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- NEO-SYNTHETIC SUPER DOT 610
DRY:620F -- WET:425F --- COBALT SUPER XRF

ARRANGED BY WET BOILING POINT:

DRY:401F -- WET:284F --- DOT3 MINIMUM
DRY:527F -- WET:302F --- AP RACING 551
DRY:446F -- WET:311F --- DOT4 MINIMUM
DRY:502F -- WET:343F --- VALVOLINE SYNPOWER
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5 MINIMUM
DRY:509F -- WET:365F --- MOTUL 5.1
DRY:536F -- WET:392F --- ATE SUPERBLUE/TYP200
DRY:590F -- WET:410F --- AP RACING 600
DRY:593F -- WET:420F --- MOTUL RBF600
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- NEO-SYNTHETIC SUPER DOT 610
DRY:620F -- WET:425F --- COBALT SUPER XRF
DRY:590F -- WET:518F --- CASTROL SRF

(courtesy of "mph")

Thanks Ron..that's the answer I've been looking for.

 

[GTS Dean]

People who track their car change the brake fluid every event.

I track mine and change it once a year. No problems for me, but it does matter what brake fluid you use. I run AP 600.

 

[genXgts]

Excellent as per usual Ron.

What is OEM fill Dot 3 or 4?

My OEM fill lasted about 4 laps before it went toast.

Rehit with Valve Synpower for street use until next road event.

 

[Ron]

Ryan;

Thanks. Don't know factory fill but will find out.

Another little tip. After bleeding, I give a careful quick squirt of brake cleaner followed by a blast of canned air inside each bleeder before capping. My theory is that since brake fluid is hydroscopic, moisture will collect and corrode the bleeder from the inside out over time.

Prior to this procedure, I've lost quite a few bleeder screws / calipers due to corrosion. Just be careful not to get any mist on your paint.

 

[Steve-Indy]

Service manual up to and including 1997 says DOT 3...1998 and on, manual says DOT 4.

 

[Marv S]

This is an interesting bit that someone sent me a few years ago. I think the “2% annual” is a bit too general as ambient air moisture is a lot different in the AZ Desert and the Pac NW.

I do know that water in the fluid is not a good thing when coming down that big mountain on Maui.


Boiling Over:
Why does brake fluid need to be replaced periodically and what are the standards?

First, we need to distinguish between DOT-3/4/5 (a set of specifications)
and silicone vs. glycol (the materials on which most brake fluids are based).This article mainly concentrates on the glycol based brake fluids (as that is typically what is supplied in our cars).

The DOT specs are based on the concept of wet and dry boiling points. Dry is for fresh fluid. The wet boiling point is applicable after the fluid has been exposed to moisture and has had the opportunity to absorb water. The minimum values for the wet and dry boiling points is specified for each DOT-level, and are higher for 5 than 4, and higher for 4 than 3. Note that these are “minimum” values, and there is
no constraint on by how much a manufacturer may exceed them. According to one source, the “Brake Handbook” by Fred Pun, the federally mandated standard for both silicone and glycol based brake fluids are as follows: (this is the ‘fresh’ or ‘dry’ boiling points):


DOT 3-401 degrees F

DOT 4-446 degrees F

DOT 5-500 degrees F

Moisture contamination causes the DOT fluid boiling point to drop (which could lead to fluid boil and brake fade during hard use). This could be very detrimental to keeping that car nice and shiny when you really want your brakes to work. The ‘wet’ boiling point of all DOT fluids is approximately 120 degrees less as mandated.

Moisture contamination also contributes to internal corrosion in the calipers, wheel cylinders, and steel brake lines. The reason for replacing fluid periodically is to get rid of contaminated fluid and restore fluid heat and corrosion resistance.

Moisture seeps in through microscopic pores in rubber seals and hoses. It also enters every time someone opens the master cylinder reservoir to check the fluid level. Most fluid reservoirs are transparent so level can be checked without having to open the lid.

Glycol based brake fluid is so “hygroscopic” (attracts water) that leaving the lid off a can of fresh brake fluid can ruin it overnight. It will absorb so much moisture from the air that it becomes too badly contaminated to use.
This is an interesting bit that someone sent me a few years ago. I think the “2% annual” is a bit too general as ambient air moisture is a lot different in the AZ Desert and the Pac NW.

I do know that water in the fluid is not a good thing when coming down that big mountain on Maui.

How often should the fluid be replaced? By the time a new car is only 12 months old, its brake fluid contains about 2% water. After 18 months, the water content is approaching 3%, which is enough to lower the boiling temperature by 25%. After several years of service it is not unusual to find brake fluid containing seven to eight percent water.

For this reason, many experts (and the Owner’s Manual of newer cars) recommend replacing the fluid as a preventative maintenance service every 2 years or 24,000 miles. At the very least, it should be replaced when the brakes are relined. And if you frequent autocrosses, driver’s education events, club tours and/or have a really spirited right foot around town, you should probably
be changing the fluid every 6 months. If after any of the above driving occasions, you have a ‘soft’ pedal feel when applying the brakes, the brake fluid should be replaced and/or flushed immediately.

 

[Janni]

snip...
The DOT specs are based on the concept of wet and dry boiling points. The dry boiling point is applicable after the fluid has been exposed to moisture and has had the opportunity to absorb water. The minimum values for the wet and dry boiling points is specified for each DOT-level, and are higher for 5 than 4, and higher for 4 than 3. Note that these are “minimum” values, and there is
no constraint on by how much a manufacturer may exceed them. According to one source, the “Brake Handbook” by Fred Pun, the federally mandated standard for both silicone and glycol based brake fluids are as follows: (this is the ‘fresh’ or ‘dry’ boiling points):


DOT 3-401 degrees F

DOT 4-446 degrees F

DOT 5-500 degrees F

snip

I think this sentence should read that the WET boiling point is when the fluid has absorbed water.

 

[Marv S]

Good catch. I've edited to avoid confusion.

I think this sentence should read that the WET boiling point is when the fluid has absorbed water.

 

[Warren S]

There are also DOT 5.1 Long Life Synthetic (Motul?) and Super Dot 610 by Neo. Has anyone tried these?

But don't confuse this with DOT 5, which is silicone based. It has a distinct <font color="purple">purple</font> color. Do not use this if you have ABS and it's also not compatible to mix with the other glycol based fluids. Popular to use for older classic and muscle cars that are stored away and see very little road use.

 

[2001 Sapphire Blue]

This is an interesting bit that someone sent me a few years ago. I think the “2% annual” is a bit too general as ambient air moisture is a lot different in the AZ Desert and the Pac NW.

I do know that water in the fluid is not a good thing when coming down that big mountain on Maui.


Boiling Over:
Why does brake fluid need to be replaced periodically and what are the standards?

First, we need to distinguish between DOT-3/4/5 (a set of specifications)
and silicone vs. glycol (the materials on which most brake fluids are based).This article mainly concentrates on the glycol based brake fluids (as that is typically what is supplied in our cars).

The DOT specs are based on the concept of wet and dry boiling points. Dry is for fresh fluid. The wet boiling point is applicable after the fluid has been exposed to moisture and has had the opportunity to absorb water. The minimum values for the wet and dry boiling points is specified for each DOT-level, and are higher for 5 than 4, and higher for 4 than 3. Note that these are “minimum” values, and there is
no constraint on by how much a manufacturer may exceed them. According to one source, the “Brake Handbook” by Fred Pun, the federally mandated standard for both silicone and glycol based brake fluids are as follows: (this is the ‘fresh’ or ‘dry’ boiling points):


DOT 3-401 degrees F

DOT 4-446 degrees F

DOT 5-500 degrees F

Moisture contamination causes the DOT fluid boiling point to drop (which could lead to fluid boil and brake fade during hard use). This could be very detrimental to keeping that car nice and shiny when you really want your brakes to work. The ‘wet’ boiling point of all DOT fluids is approximately 120 degrees less as mandated.

Moisture contamination also contributes to internal corrosion in the calipers, wheel cylinders, and steel brake lines. The reason for replacing fluid periodically is to get rid of contaminated fluid and restore fluid heat and corrosion resistance.

Moisture seeps in through microscopic pores in rubber seals and hoses. It also enters every time someone opens the master cylinder reservoir to check the fluid level. Most fluid reservoirs are transparent so level can be checked without having to open the lid.

Glycol based brake fluid is so “hygroscopic” (attracts water) that leaving the lid off a can of fresh brake fluid can ruin it overnight. It will absorb so much moisture from the air that it becomes too badly contaminated to use.
This is an interesting bit that someone sent me a few years ago. I think the “2% annual” is a bit too general as ambient air moisture is a lot different in the AZ Desert and the Pac NW.

I do know that water in the fluid is not a good thing when coming down that big mountain on Maui.

How often should the fluid be replaced? By the time a new car is only 12 months old, its brake fluid contains about 2% water. After 18 months, the water content is approaching 3%, which is enough to lower the boiling temperature by 25%. After several years of service it is not unusual to find brake fluid containing seven to eight percent water.

For this reason, many experts (and the Owner’s Manual of newer cars) recommend replacing the fluid as a preventative maintenance service every 2 years or 24,000 miles. At the very least, it should be replaced when the brakes are relined. And if you frequent autocrosses, driver’s education events, club tours and/or have a really spirited right foot around town, you should probably
be changing the fluid every 6 months. If after any of the above driving occasions, you have a ‘soft’ pedal feel when applying the brakes, the brake fluid should be replaced and/or flushed immediately.

Thanks Marv, that's the info I was looking for!

 

[Dixter]

Some of us should just print this out and put in on the garage wall or in the
car somewhere. Snagged from Dan's web site.

Tech Talk- Featuring DAN CRAGIN from
THE VIPER SHOP


How often should I service my Viper?

Regular service is important to maintaining the safety and reliability of your vehicle. It is also a powerful leverage tool for maximizing the resale value of your Viper. As Viper techs we have developed a service schedule from our experience working on these vehicles since 1992.

Oil Change: This should be performed in the first 200 miles of vehicle operation and every 2500-3000 miles thereafter. Use only recommended oil and filters and always change the drain plug gasket. Make sure the oil filter is tight.

Differential Fluid: This fluid should be changed in the first 7500 miles and every 12,500 miles thereafter.

Cooling System: The factory fill is rated to last three years; however, we recommend replacing it every two years. Remove the block plugs and use only distilled water and recommended coolant.

Transmission Service: 1992-1997 Vipers should have this fluid changed every 10,000 to 12,000 miles. 1998 and later models should be serviced every 12,500 to 20,000 miles. Driving habits can affect the frequency of this service.

Chassis Lube: The chassis should be lubed conservatively every 9,000 miles. All excess grease must be removed after completing this service. Overgreasing can cause brake contamination and brake failure.

Brake System Flush: Brake fluid should be flushed every two years or whenever it becomes discolored. Discoloration is an indication of moisture. Brake fluid is dehydrated and can boil easily when it has absorbed moisture.

Flush Clutch Fluid: Flush the clutch fluid every three years or whenever the clutch is worked on.

Power Steering Service: This service depends on driving habits but can range from 7500 to 15,000 miles. If the fluid is dark or smells burnt, it should be replaced.

Tune-Up:We have found that at about 15,000 miles there is enough wear and deposits on the spark plugs to justify a tune-up. A complete diagnostic check of the system should be performed. Replace the PVC valve and service or replace the air filters. Synchronize the throttle cables (Gen 1) if necessary. A fuel injector service and throttle body clean may also be necessary at this time. A Viper tech will let you know. The plug wires should be replaced every second tune-up.

Battery: We have found that few batteries last longer than 3 years. It is essential to clean the battery tray and terminals when replacing the battery.

Serpentine Belt: This belt should be replaced every 22,000 to 25,000 miles. It is the only belt in the system and drives all the accessories.

These are the basics. There are many other systems on the vehicle that need periodic attention. If you race, a more rigorous schedule is necessary. If you follow these basic service requirements your vehicle should perform well for many years.

Source: Winter 2003 Viper Club of America/ Southern California Region (Southern California Viper Review Magazine)

 

[BigCarrot]

OMG, I think I need to change every fluid in my car! lol That's gonna cost a fortune!

 

[Newport Viper]

Marv
Coming down the big mountain (Volcano) in the Viper, was a blast!!!!! Almost lost it on some wet leaves= wet pants. My passenger was green!!!! Not many people have done that in the Viper! Froze a$$, no top, felt like I was in Cleveland!

 

[Toronto_ACR]

Can someone please post the steps required to change the fluid. I hear it is very easy but I would appreciate the complete steps required to do it right.

Thanks

 

[jimandela]

MOTUL RBF600 for me andi change it yearly.

Also i went with Dexcool for the rad with a cooler running engine.
but remove of all the old coolant is essential.

good luck

Jim

 

[Edward 96GTS]

How easy is it to use the one man fluid extractors(the kind sold at Griot's garage)?
Ed

 

[Ulysses]

Can someone please post the steps required to change the fluid. I hear it is very easy but I
would appreciate the complete steps required to do it right.

Drain most of, but not all of the fluid in the brake fluid reservoir. (I use a turkey baster for this, don't get any on the paint)
Replace with clean, brake fluid. (don't get any on the paint)
Start with the bleed valve furthest from reservoir (passenger side rear).
Using your favorite bleed tool, crack the bleeder and and drain until fluid is clear and all air bubbles are gone.
Tighten bleeder, work your way to the closest bleeder to the reservoir (driver's side front) in this fashion:

pass-rear, drv-rear, pass-front, drv-front.

The front calipers have 2 bleeders. do EDIT: inside-outside-inside.

Keep an eye on the reservoir and make sure you don't run it dry by filling it up when it gets low (did I mention not getting any fluid on the paint?)

Your done!

How easy is it to use the one man fluid extractors(the kind sold at Griot's garage)?

I had a problem with Griot's vaccum extractor. The red fitting did not seal very well and even pusing down on it did not help. I had to rig someting up with extra tubing to get it to work right. If you use Griot's extractor, make sure you don't create a large vaccum. (3 to 4 pumps max).

 

[Janni]

The front calipers have 2 bleeders. do outside-inside-outside.

I believe the manual says inner - outer - inner as the order.

 

[Ulysses]

I believe the manual says inner - outer - inner as the order.

OOps! Thanks for correcting me!

 

[slaughterj]

How easy is it to use the one man fluid extractors(the kind sold at Griot's garage)?
Ed

I found speedbleeders to work excellently, per recommendation from the Cones.

 

[Edward 96GTS]

Thanks for the feedback and tips to all.
Speedbleeders?-could you please elaborate?
Ed

 

[Ulysses]

Speed Bleeders web page

 

[jcaspar1]

The factory manual recommends pressure bleeding which can easily be done with a Motive Brake Bleeder. With it you don't have to run back and forth pumping the pedal.

Check out this thread .

 

[Ulysses]

Yeah, the pressure bleeder is great for not having to check the reservoir so often as well, but if you don't get that seal right and forget to check it at pressure first, you can end up with a mess. (I was in a hurry and paid for it )

 

[ViperJoe]

Had mine done at VIR by Archer, still had original in it, wasn't too dark in the master cylinder, but it was NASTY coming out the back with some air in it too. Pedal is rockhard now.