DIY Superchargers

[TurboSnake]

I sure hope one of the Blower manufacturers (Vortech,Paxton,ATI) comes out with a DIY kit for the Viper,because the kits developed by private tuners seem overpriced,most blower compressors cost around 2K,and I can't see brackets and install costing another 15 to 21K.
The SRT-10 Dodge Ram will do a lot for the Viper aftermarket as far as pricing goes.

<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by TurboSnake on 03-09-2002 at 12:38 PM</font>

 

[treynor]

Paxton readily admits that they're coming out with a DIY blower for the Viper. They have not yet announced a price point.

 

[TomMiriViper]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TurboSnake:
I sure hope one of the Blower manufacturers (Vortech,Paxton,ATI) comes out with a DIY kit for the Viper,because until then people are gonna continue to get gouged by these private tuners,most blower compressors cost around 2K,and I can't see brackets and install costing another 15 to 21K.
The SRT-10 Dodge Ram will do a lot for the Viper aftermarket as far as pricing goes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>TurboSnake,

Accusations of gouging?
Do you even own a Viper?
If so what's your VCA number?

Tom

 

[Joseph Dell]

I am not sure how many of those who are on the edge of their seats have tried to fabricate brackets themsleves for a DIY SC setup. At one point, I did. After about 4 weeks of R&D, I decided to let someone else do the work.

If the viper were more like an early 90's mustang, then I wouldn't have any issues with making my own SC. On the other hand, there is a heck of a lot more that goes into these cars than simply adding a blower head until and making brackets. And the biggest pain in the @$$ is the fuel system.

Either way, when I am trying to inch every last bit of power out of my car, I'll take it to a tuner. If I want a simple bolt out that reportedly increases performance by XX % and by YY HP, then I'll take a bolt on.

Next time you have an opportunity, pop your viper hood, and imagine where a SC would fit. Now imagine what work must be done to make room. What about that frame rail? Fuel system? air intake?

Starting to get the idea?

I am all about DIY stuff, but a centrifugal SC for the viper wasn't going to be it.

Now a roots blower will be more along the lines of a DIY bolt-on, however I don't want to touch the ROOTS / Twin Screw VS. Centrifugal discussion...

Just my .02...

 

[Gerald]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TurboSnake:
I sure hope one of the Blower manufacturers (Vortech,Paxton,ATI) comes out with a DIY kit for the Viper,because until then people are gonna continue to get gouged by these private tuners,most blower compressors cost around 2K,and I can't see brackets and install costing another 15 to 21K.
The SRT-10 Dodge Ram will do a lot for the Viper aftermarket as far as pricing goes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Mustang guy,

Show me somewhere that you can give nearly 900HP and others that have nearly 700 to 800 at the motor for the price we pay vs the price you'll pay for finding someplace to even do it, let alone do it right..power ALL the time, power everytime..


Gerald

 

[treynor]

TJ, several points:
1) First blood in this particular war of words was drawn when Turbosnake used the word "gouging". That term implies that the prices being charged by existing SC providers are egregiously out of whack with a "normal" fair-market prices. I don't believe that to be the case -- prices charged by DLM & Heffners seem to be in line with, or less than, what other top-tier tuners charge for complete turnkey packages with similar horsepower results -- see for example Lingenfelter's $50K 427TT offering. However, with the unbacked accusation hanging in the air, expect a sharp reaction.

2) You describe a power and price point for to the yet-to-be-announced Paxton system as though it were gospel. Either you have access to Paxton's testing results (which I highly doubt based on your phrasing and the figures you list) or you're inventing numbers which match your fantasy "no-compromise" Paxton system. Which is it?

3) In your second post, you appear to be directly attacking DLM's work, since you describe features of some of his systems. Your post suggests extreme naivete on your part for reasons which are obvious to anyone with experience in the arena. Elighten us, please, on your personal prior experience with 600+ RWHP tuner cars and how you arranged for them to be "without compromise"?

4) Finally, you attacked another board member in a particularly nasty and personal manner. You've apparently never spoken with Gerald, who's a friendly and open individual in person, and (heh) you've obviously never met him or seen a picture of him. I'll leave it at that.

 

[TurboSnake]

Jeez,keep the thread on topic,I posted my opinion and if you have the numbers to justify the initial cost of supercharging a Viper please post them so I can understand,it does not matter that kits are making 650 rwhp when you are starting near 400 rwhp,a blower kit consists of a head unit,plumbing,bracketry,and engine management,rather you are bolting it to a Viper or a Miata.

I don't own a Viper,but once I can upgrade one for less than the cost of a second Viper I plan on picking up a GTS,I joined this site because I like to research something before I purchase it.

(I notice that there is a common denominator in the detractors of this post)

<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by TurboSnake on 03-09-2002 at 10:59 AM</font>

 

[Bill/APEX Motorsports]

The biggest issue with a DIY kit is the tuning. Every Viper has a different air/fuel ratio, especially from year-to-year. To do an all-encompassing computer tune is going to be very difficult.
BTW--at this time, the projected cost on the Paxton kit is about $7k.

 

[treynor]

Turbo,
I didn't have any issue with your original question, other than noting that the use of the term 'gouging' to describe the work done at Heffners, DLM, SVSi et. al. seemed inappropriate without some justification. I didn't consider it a major deal, but then I'm just a laid-back California dude

I won't claim expertise in the details of producing a blower kit, either for a Miata or a Viper, but I would suggest that higher Viper prices probably stem from three main sources: (1) packaging difficulties in the Viper engine bay; (2) lack of economies of scale for a low-volume vehicle; (3) low price elasticity of demand for Viper products in general.

For my own selfish reasons, I hope Paxton succeeds in producing a reasonably-priced blower kit for the Viper. They have yet to demonstrate that they can do so. Given that one can obtain 510 RWHP normally-aspirated in a Viper for about $10K, the blower will need to produce 540+ RWHP at that price point to justify its additional weight and complexity.

TJ,
I think you're trying to be inflammatory with your responses. It does not raise my opinion of you.
That aside, you will not see 600 RWHP from a blower + ported heads as you propose. The stock fuel system will not support that power level. You could go to a secondary fuel system, but that would (a) exceed your stated price target and (b) introduce one of those dreaded compromises

If you want low-500s RWHP, and you already have intake, headers, exhaust and rockers, I'd strongly recommend going the heads+cam route. It'll be cheaper, more reliable, and lighter than a blower, and will still get you within 30 RWHP of the max you'd be able to make using the stock fuel system.

My fearless prediction: At the end of the day, the main market for a $8-10K (installed), 520 RWHP blower package is likely to be (a) owners who want the power without the noise level associated with N/A power at that level, and (b) those who just want something a bit "different". The customer tuner market's likely to remain in the $15K-$20K and up range, with power levels beginning at about 600 RWHP.

 

[TomMiriViper]

TJ Booker,

I think your confused with the underrated cars built by another tuner from the state of TX. Probably the ones that never made the horsepower numbers they were advertised to produce? That tuner built cars for years with HIS OVERRATED STATUS but the cars would provide less than average performance and that was if you were lucky. His customers spent thousands and thousands of dollars for what... 75 - 100 horsepower? By today's standards that tuner would be lucky to rank with JC Whitney's bolt-on performance catalogue. It's a sad affair for the tuner and now his customers left with underrated cars and no warranty. Maybe after ten years (of hard time) he'll be able to produce something that can impress us with more than a name.

Tom

 

[MES]

Back on topic. Yes I do believe that almost EVERY tuner overcharge for EVERYTHING not just blowers, when it relates to a Viper. Economics 101 - charge what the market will bear and don't leave money on the table. Most of these tuners don't have the deep pockets like a manufacture such as Vortech, so they can't just absorb the high up front cost then make it back over the next 2 years selling blowers. TurboSnake is 100% correct it should cost no more for a Viper supercharger than a Mustang/Camaro/Corvette etc. Yea so it's a Viper but I don't care, the actual cost for the parts and pieces don't change based on the car it's being installed into. Now if you want more than a basic kit can offer (6-8 lb) then you will need to go to a tuner and expect to pay the $$

 

[Marv S]

Got the new car & driver. Lingenfelter SC kit for the C5 puts hp up to 490 hp, is only $6,400 and it runs 0-100 in 7.7 seconds. That's for a Standard, stock displacement LS1.

Put it on a Z/06 and the hp goes to 530. Not too bad for $6,400

The 17.9 seconds to 150 mph puts it quicker than all those tuner cars in the 0-150 shootout a couple years ago except for the Lingenfelter ZR-1. And this was not even the Z/06.

Per the article, the kit uses the Eaton rotors and same internals as used on the SVT 150 Lightning. Eaton builds the superchargers for Mercedes, GM, & Ford so it obvious they're going for durability and servicing should not be as concern like if an exotic, limited made unit was used. a big consideration for me would be where can you find parts 10 years from now if needed.

kit includes larger injectors, ecu programmer, intake manifold, all belts, gaskets, etc.

The DLM cars turn out some incredible ponies. Would like to see some featured in national mags. Someone needs to step up and put Viper tuner cars back on the covers again........

Stock Gts 0-150 is 22.5 seconds
HMS Venom 600 0-150 : 18.5 seconds
C5 LPE sc kit 0-150 : 17.9 for $6,400

Who's got the answer?

 

[Gerald]

Dear

"TJ"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I too want forced induction but can't afford to spend a lot. I am going to wait for the Paxton system which should be out by this summer and the kit cost around $5-6K. Not a cheap kit compared to blower kits for SUV's, etc., but still much more in my price range than what is offered by GWP, DLM, etc. I dont fault these guys for charging what they do given the small volume of systems that they produce.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would def. recommend forced induction, it's awesome!


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I do look forward to the higher level of engineering that will go into the Paxton over the other systems. I want a blower system without compromises. I dont want to have to tighten my blower belt everytime I drive my car, have to put water and alcohol in a tank for a water injection system so my car wont detonate, dont want to have a fuel cell in the back of my car and the list goes on. If some people want to do all this and pay a lot to do it that is up to them (and I have spoken with several who admit these problems with their blower cars but say nothing about it here).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't tighten my blower belt everytime I drive...
I don't put water or alchohol in my system. But if I did, it's called power adders, not cheap fixes..
If you want to get your 6,000 blower system man, by all means go for it. Get your measly 70 or so rwhp and have fun!
But if you want some serious power, like an extra 300 or 400, or even 500 rwhp, call up your boys at Paxton or where ever they are and let them design a system and see what it comes up to.

I guess it all boils down to what you can afford. If you can get a level I system from Doug or whoever do and get 600+ at the rears!! woohooo! If you want a DIY kit for 6k or 7k (are they even out yet?) and get less HP, more power to you. I guess it all boils down to what you can afford, etc. If I couldn't afford a DLM system, or other S/C tuner here, I would be a bit like you and put it down cuz quite frankly it would scare the crap outta me and my competition...

It's Saturday nite,.. what am I doing home!!???
Now where's my belt tightening tool, my water and alcholol cuz my car won't run without it tonite!

Later
G

 

[jamie furman]

Not taking up for any tuner or any system I noticed TJ mentioned blower without comprimises, well I have had my blower on for over 2 years and there is no compromise. I have had no problems, not to say I never will but so far so good, my car makes 580 rearwheel horse on 93 octane and everything except halfshafts and rocker arms are stock including exhaust and every bolt on the engine. My car has run 10.4 at 135 on a dot legal tire and regulary runs 10.8 10.9 on the 19" Pzero at 131 132mph. I don't see how you can get better engineered than that, but maybe I am wrong.I noticed Marv mentioned a price of a corvette sc kit at 6400 well that is a 8 cyl versus 10 cyl and I am sure that does not count install add 1500 to that price and your right around 8k.Well my system installed was under 10k and I am pretty sure Heffner now offers a kit similar or better than mine installed for about 10k.

 

[jcaspar1]

Gerald,
That is some serious horsepower! What is your best quarter mile time to date?

 

[Gerald]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jcaspar1:
Gerald,
That is some serious horsepower! What is your best quarter mile time to date?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When I get to the track one of the years, I'll let you know...
I'd love to see Doug or Jamie of Jason run it, now those guys can drive the 1/4 mile..


Gerald

 

[ZX1100]

I found a kit for my C5 from ATI that is reportedly putting out 490rwhp on a stock LS1 motor when bolted on. I know I can get that kit installed for under $6500. My stock C5 with exhaust and intake makes 320rwhp so if it brings it up to 490rwhp then that's a 170rwhp gain for under $6500 and that's great in my opinion.

 

[TurboSnake]

treynor:I have never had a problem with you in the past,and you always came across sincere,I have retracted the term "gouging" from the original post,I'm sorry if I offended anyone because I am not here to do that,but I would like to see some feedback on this thread.

 

[TurboSnake]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bill/APEX Motorsports:
The biggest issue with a DIY kit is the tuning.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I love forced induction,when I built my 94 Cobra Mustang it was the first SN95 stang with a Incon twin turbo system (the same kit that LPE uses),I have numerous pulls on DynoJet and Mustang dynos,and I use Mike Wesley's AutoLogic software for tuning,I have plenty experience with A/F ratios and load tables,my Cobra laid down 533 rwhp from 302 cubic inches,pump gas,and 10 lbs. of boost,now remember I started with 230 rwhp!

This year I'm shooting for 650+ rwhp,but if I see a DIY blower kit for the Viper I will be buying a GTS,C'mon Paxton!



<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by TurboSnake on 03-09-2002 at 01:00 PM</font>

 

[TurboSnake]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ZX1100:
My stock C5 with exhaust and intake makes 320rwhp so if it brings it up to 490rwhp then that's a 170rwhp gain for under $6500 and that's great in my opinion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes,that will be a nice increase for dollar spent.
The ATI is a intercooled unit and that should help out with intake air charge temps,which can stave off detonation,post your dyno numbers when you get everything up and running.

 

[jcaspar1]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gerald:
When I get to the track one of the years, I'll let you know...
I'd love to see Doug or Jamie of Jason run it, now those guys can drive the 1/4 mile..

Gerald
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's a shame that a car with that power never sees the dragstrip. I am sure that it is a lot of fun on the street and the engine a thing of beauty.

P.S Have you put a small N2O shot on your car since February to get to 800 RWHP? Last I saw you were "only " at 749.

 

[Gerald]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ViperRev:
I'm sorry, I think I'm missing something it looks like your power fell off at 4900 but your tq was still climbing. I don't know much about a dyno chart but that does not look like you let off it looks like it fell off.


Jeff


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understand the confusion.. Wrong line.. That's the torque if I'm not mistaken..

 

[DEVILDOG]

<FONT COLOR="yellow">Hey Gerald KID,</FONT c>
<FONT COLOR="blue">Why did you let off at 5300 rpm?</FONT c> <FONT COLOR="red">You afraid it was going to blow up?</FONT c> <FONT COLOR="brown">Also, you have not answered if your system has the H2O/alcohol tank and the additional fuel cell?</FONT c> <FONT COLOR="yellow">You also have not responded to my answers to the attack you initiated on me in the other post here.</FONT c>...HMS offering "No Money Down"! <FONT COLOR="brown">What's the matter did your brain go dead or can't you take what you are always so anxious to dish out?</FONT c> <FONT COLOR="yellow">You must be all show and no go!</FONT c>Color coded just for you...figure it out!

 

[THEMASH]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck B 98 GTS:

My DLM Viper has no fuel cell or water injection and my car still makes 700 rwhp.
Chuck B.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you using NOS?

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DEVILDOG:
Color coded just for you...figure it out!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I read your post I was thinking of how I was gonna reply to all the pretty colors, but you finished it off with the last line. You thilly guy.

 

[Gerald]

Jeff, Nice call you are absolutley correct. It did dyno at 749..

If you look at the graph which you did, it shows that we shut off the dyno at about 5200 or so RPM. Look at the line, it's still climbing sharply. Also note that car was in a dyno room with NO AIR running over the intercooler (no, not even a fan)..
IN EVERYDAY driving cool air will go over the intercooler and give it a much cooler and denser charge. We could estimate another 30 to 40 RWHP by doing that (maybe more!)..,Plus we had another 500 to 800 RPM to go which would have netted around another 20-30 RWHP..Also note the dyno wasn't played with, but the shop did ask us if we wanted to.. LOL!

Hence, the 800 RWHP number....

I also agree it is a shame it doesn't hit the dragstrip. But like I said in an earlier post, I'd rather spend my Fri and Sat nights doing something else besides going to the dragstrip. Just not my thing to be honest... If it were, who really cares. It's my car and that's all that matters I guess.. Well, at least to me..


Thanks..!

Gerald

 

[Chuck B 98 GTS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jcaspar1:
It's a shame that a car with that power never sees the dragstrip. I am sure that it is a lot of fun on the street and the engine a thing of beauty.

P.S Have you put a small N2O shot on your car since February to get to 800 RWHP? Last I saw you were "only " at 749.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you read the initial posts on the dyno results it tells the facts about driving the car for an hour and doing the dyno pull with engine heat soak and high ambient temps. I can easily see another 35 - 50+ Horsepower by bringing the rpm up to redline. If you read the dyno graph as It clearly shows they only went up to 5,300 rpm. Take a look at the dyno graph still ramping "up" until they lifted. Gerald's car had more horsepower. The dyno results are going to be at a disadvantage in the Florida heat.

My DLM Viper has no fuel cell or water injection and my car still makes 700 rwhp. My hats off to Doug Levin and his crew for making his cars stronger and more powerful than ever before.

Chuck B.

 

[Gerald]

 

[Chuck B 98 GTS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by THEMASH:
Are you using NOS?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I have nitrous, never use it. Car still makes 700 rwhp without it. I had a cell at one time but removed it to install a custom amp and have no signs of detonation on pump fuel.

Have a good one,
Chuck

 

[Gerald]

DEVILDOG,

Yes, my car has alchohol, N02, Water, Methanol, Stroker Kit, and Nuclear Reactors.. Do you think there is a tuner out there that could get that kind of power on a lone Single Supercharger without them???


Gerald