Gerald
Enthusiast
Breathe in.. Breathe out... 'tis ok...
DLM Stage 1 vs. Sean Roe
- Thread starter OutThere
- Start date
Breathe in.. Breathe out... 'tis ok...
Daffy Duck Viper
Enthusiast
*ululation*
Joseph Dell
Enthusiast
I'm working on the analysis. After dinner tonight I'll post some results.
JD
JD
1TONY1
Enthusiast
Breathe in.. Breathe out... 'tis ok...
Gerald, I know Chuck keeps a good supply of heart pills, you want me to have him run some over ? I will stop stirring the ***, sometimes I just can't help it......maybe Chuck has some Ritalin for me !!Don't anybody think that I don't think DLM isn't kick a$$...it is.....all you have to do is look back at my previous posts and you will see I speak highly of him and his product.
Tony, i think you got a great car. The Roe charger is a very good product for the money. I wasn't knocking it. Theyre just two different animals.
Its not just in the horsepower. Thats all im saying, no flame intended.
have a good one
Max
Its not just in the horsepower. Thats all im saying, no flame intended.
have a good one
Max
Joseph Dell
Enthusiast
It was a nice greek dinner with friends and family...
I'll put the results in a new post.
JD
I'll put the results in a new post.
JD
1TONY1
Enthusiast
Agreed Max Now .....that feller above me here.......I will do all I can to help him and I think if you look at the silver car above, that may be the first DLM car in the nines !!
Now .....that feller above me here.......I will do all I can to help him and I think if you look at the silver car above, that may be the first DLM car in the nines !!Gee thanx Tony but I think since we are comparing power outputs one cannot forget the cost of additional modds. I'm sorry I forgot that all Vipers came stock with long tube headers, 1.7 rockers, and 3inch exaustWhy on earth would anyone spend money on a supercharger without having exhaust and headers.
Like it or not that's an extra 5-6K you have to factor in if you want to sqeeze 600rwhp out of the Roe supercharger.1TONY1
Enthusiast
Gee thanx Tony but I think since we are comparing power outputs one cannot forget the cost of additional modds. I'm sorry I forgot that all Vipers came stock with long tube headers, 1.7 rockers, and 3inch exaustWhy on earth would anyone spend money on a supercharger without having exhaust and headers.
Please don't take me wrong here. I am saying IMHO that before you do any s/c from any tuner you should have headers and exhaust. I AM not talking just the Roe s/c. You are not getting the full potential out of any s/c without them. Ask Jason Heffner or Doug Levin their recommendation, don't take my word. I still have stock rockers fyi. This is based on my 25 years of wasting money on performance cars. Headers and exhaust is normally one of the "best bang for the buck" mods, unfortunately the buck is to high for our cars. My car came with headers and exhaust so I didn't have to by them....but.....where are you getting 5-6K for these ? I could duplicate my system for less than $2500 buying new stuff. And I wouldn't even do that !!!! I would find me a set of used headers. If you don't want to spend $2500 then why spend $7500 to $18000+. Sorry if you thought my post was aimed at you specifically, that was NOT my intent.
Joseph Dell
Enthusiast
Tony -
Now be nice... my car still has stock headers. Hi-flow cats and borlas, yes, but stock headers. In fact, with the in-progress set-up, I'm still not sure about doing headers. Doh!
But since they have come down in price a bit, now might be the time to do it.
We'll see.
My slow, old 99 RT/10 with 700rwhp runs with those stock headers.
JD
Now be nice... my car still has stock headers. Hi-flow cats and borlas, yes, but stock headers. In fact, with the in-progress set-up, I'm still not sure about doing headers. Doh!
But since they have come down in price a bit, now might be the time to do it.
We'll see.
My slow, old 99 RT/10 with 700rwhp runs with those stock headers.
JD
MichaelP
Enthusiast
Gee thanx Tony but I think since we are comparing power outputs one cannot forget the cost of additional modds. I'm sorry I forgot that all Vipers came stock with long tube headers, 1.7 rockers, and 3inch exaustWhy on earth would anyone spend money on a supercharger without having exhaust and headers.
Please don't take me wrong here. I am saying IMHO that before you do any s/c from any tuner you should have headers and exhaust. I AM not talking just the Roe s/c. You are not getting the full potential out of any s/c without them. Ask Jason Heffner or Doug Levin their recommendation, don't take my word. I still have stock rockers fyi. This is based on my 25 years of wasting money on performance cars. Headers and exhaust is normally one of the "best bang for the buck" mods, unfortunately the buck is to high for our cars. My car came with headers and exhaust so I didn't have to by them....but.....where are you getting 5-6K for these ? I could duplicate my system for less than $2500 buying new stuff. And I wouldn't even do that !!!! I would find me a set of used headers. If you don't want to spend $2500 then why spend $7500 to $18000+. Sorry if you thought my post was aimed at you specifically, that was NOT my intent.
Sounds reasonable to me.
Tony I have been looking at doing headers and exhaust could you tell me where to get them at $2500 new. If you prefer please PM or email me.
Thanks.
No Problem Tony. I do agree with you that you need at min headers and exaust to maximize potential of blowers. I was shoping for headers and the best I found was $1800 + 1000 for exaust,and 1200 for rockers. If you know where I can get good headers cheap I'm all over it. I got quoted around 800 install for the headers and never got a quote for the rockers. I am serious about the headers, if you know where they can be had for a good price drop me a email @ [email protected]
I am with Tony when he says find a USED pair of headers. VCA classifieds, EBAY, or wherever.
As far as rear exhaust, make your own. Buy a set of hi flows ,$300 then cut the rear muffler out and have a muffler shop run pipes with an "H" or "X". Costs me , $100 with tips.
I could not see paying over a grand for Corsa or Borla or whatever, when pipes have a much better sound to them IMO.
Rockers I would buy new, but there are other brands besides the T&D's that people have had success with for way less than a grand, but I would go with the T&D's with a s/c setup(IMO).
USED headers-$1000 to $1200 (estimate maybe less)
rear exhaust-$100
hi flow cats-$300
T&D rockers-$1200
So $2600-$2800=50 to 75 hp depending on car year.
John
As far as rear exhaust, make your own. Buy a set of hi flows ,$300 then cut the rear muffler out and have a muffler shop run pipes with an "H" or "X". Costs me , $100 with tips.
I could not see paying over a grand for Corsa or Borla or whatever, when pipes have a much better sound to them IMO.
Rockers I would buy new, but there are other brands besides the T&D's that people have had success with for way less than a grand, but I would go with the T&D's with a s/c setup(IMO).
USED headers-$1000 to $1200 (estimate maybe less)
rear exhaust-$100
hi flow cats-$300
T&D rockers-$1200
So $2600-$2800=50 to 75 hp depending on car year.
John
1TONY1
Enthusiast
Joseph....that's the best I can do, I'm not sending flowers too Did you see how nice my earlier post was......that was your silver car I was speaking of. If you like, I will buy you a water tonight at the meeting (you are coming ? ). Example: If headers would normally gain 20 hp....I bet you would gain at least 30 hp or more.
Exhaust: Exactly what John said above.......Two race mufflers and two high flow cats or .... louder = forget the cats. Buy just the rear pipes or have a shop make them. My car has two race mufflers in each side sill and the Venom 500 came with 3" pipes after that. Two of my mufflers = $130 and the other two = $100. Two 3" high flow cats about $250 or less for 3" , 2.5" = $200 or less. We will have to check on pre bent tail pipes but any shop that can do 3" exhaust should be able to handle the job....I would guess $200 plus whatever cool tips you want. Headers: Do you want 1 5/8" or 1 3/4" There was a few deals going on for $1800 shipped on Belangers.I can get you B&B headers cheaper
for either size and Borla 1 5/8" a lot cheaper. PM me for a package price on the whole deal. Installation....shop around or get the tools out and learn your car. I know someone that just paid a dealer $350 for a header and Corsa install with a 12 mth install warranty and no charge bolt torqueing. I installed a set of arrow rockers a month back, they look nice and the new ones should have no durability problems. I think they cost $700 and either one need pushrods ($100)
Did you see how nice my earlier post was......that was your silver car I was speaking of. If you like, I will buy you a water tonight at the meeting (you are coming ? ). Example: If headers would normally gain 20 hp....I bet you would gain at least 30 hp or more. Exhaust: Exactly what John said above.......Two race mufflers and two high flow cats or .... louder = forget the cats. Buy just the rear pipes or have a shop make them. My car has two race mufflers in each side sill and the Venom 500 came with 3" pipes after that. Two of my mufflers = $130 and the other two = $100. Two 3" high flow cats about $250 or less for 3" , 2.5" = $200 or less. We will have to check on pre bent tail pipes but any shop that can do 3" exhaust should be able to handle the job....I would guess $200 plus whatever cool tips you want. Headers: Do you want 1 5/8" or 1 3/4" There was a few deals going on for $1800 shipped on Belangers.I can get you B&B headers cheaper
for either size and Borla 1 5/8" a lot cheaper. PM me for a package price on the whole deal. Installation....shop around or get the tools out and learn your car. I know someone that just paid a dealer $350 for a header and Corsa install with a 12 mth install warranty and no charge bolt torqueing. I installed a set of arrow rockers a month back, they look nice and the new ones should have no durability problems. I think they cost $700 and either one need pushrods ($100)
MichaelP
Enthusiast
Thanks for the info Tony.
I sent you a PM.
I sent you a PM.
In defense of Tony - a lot of cars can have very high hp numbers, yet, if you compare those cars with cars having the same mods plus headers/exhausts you will see the hp/torque tend to be peaky, especially on N2O. Similar max horse power may exist (without headers/exhaust), however, the area under the curve will be considerably less.
Vipermed 97.01
Enthusiast
I usually try to stay out of these debates as i tend to get emotional(so i will try to hold back the tears )seems Tony and Sean are at the Alamo.As far as to say this blower is new to the market and needs proving time,I guess the countless years of proven reliability for not only the twinn screw but this particular twinn screw counts for nothing.The only thing new about it is the application, which of course comes down to tunning, which of course is the true test of any supercharged or turbo,granted Doug has unlocked the door to tunning of his very unique and respectable system,my hats off to him.but lets also give credit where credit is due,The Roe charger is no different than any other twinn screw,the trick was making it fit and work on a Viper(enter Sean)If Sean came out of the shoot boasting 8-10 lbs boost shooting for the sky that would be one thing,but he entered safely and modestly, in my opinion underating as we are seeing an average of 6-6.5lbs boost on most of our applications,you have to crawl before you walk.I do believe 1 year from now this thread will be chuckled at.As far as reliability of the twinn screw i do not think even the centrifical tuners will deny that FACT,once again brings us back to tunning(the magic bullit)one of the weakest links of the viper has always been its intake manifold with its oversize runners that is still utilized with centrifical(granted that it overcomes the problem at high RPMs)but at the cost of what.THE ENEMY..HEAT enter innercooler,I dont think the twinn screw will ever compare high RPM graph consistencys as the centrifical,but sure is nice to offer some amazing low end torque curves.once again to repeat myself i am taking nothing away from the latter.but in all honesty tunning being equall wouldnt it be interesting to put 30,000 hard miles on each unit and tear them down and see which held up best,I think you would be surprised at the results...In endind of my endless babbling i would like to say not only do i like to feel my money and hard work,I love to see it.The centrifical has some beautifull workmanship unfortunately tucked away in front of a stock looking engine.you knew the poser in me would come out.good night to all and to all a good night
)seems Tony and Sean are at the Alamo.As far as to say this blower is new to the market and needs proving time,I guess the countless years of proven reliability for not only the twinn screw but this particular twinn screw counts for nothing.The only thing new about it is the application, which of course comes down to tunning, which of course is the true test of any supercharged or turbo,granted Doug has unlocked the door to tunning of his very unique and respectable system,my hats off to him.but lets also give credit where credit is due,The Roe charger is no different than any other twinn screw,the trick was making it fit and work on a Viper(enter Sean)If Sean came out of the shoot boasting 8-10 lbs boost shooting for the sky that would be one thing,but he entered safely and modestly, in my opinion underating as we are seeing an average of 6-6.5lbs boost on most of our applications,you have to crawl before you walk.I do believe 1 year from now this thread will be chuckled at.As far as reliability of the twinn screw i do not think even the centrifical tuners will deny that FACT,once again brings us back to tunning(the magic bullit)one of the weakest links of the viper has always been its intake manifold with its oversize runners that is still utilized with centrifical(granted that it overcomes the problem at high RPMs)but at the cost of what.THE ENEMY..HEAT enter innercooler,I dont think the twinn screw will ever compare high RPM graph consistencys as the centrifical,but sure is nice to offer some amazing low end torque curves.once again to repeat myself i am taking nothing away from the latter.but in all honesty tunning being equall wouldnt it be interesting to put 30,000 hard miles on each unit and tear them down and see which held up best,I think you would be surprised at the results...In endind of my endless babbling i would like to say not only do i like to feel my money and hard work,I love to see it.The centrifical has some beautifull workmanship unfortunately tucked away in front of a stock looking engine.you knew the poser in me would come out.good night to all and to all a good nightonerareviper
Enthusiast
I have to laugh how everyone ASSUMES Roe's kit will never make big numbers. Sure, this was not the initial goal. Although, I have some early predictions - (1 year from now):
1.) Someone will develop a custom ground cam to maximize the Roe system.
2.) Head work will continue to advance to work WITH the Roe system.
3.) Better intake systems will be available.
4.) Someone will figure out how to incorporate an intercooler, allowing the boost to be increased to 10-12 PSI. I'll guess a 'sandwich' type unit.. (Hood clearance could be the limiting factor).
5.) Fuel system and VEC2 will be enhanced further.
6.) Ignition upgrades will be available.
7.) 9's in the 1/4. Will be right up there with the other Big Dogs.
8.) RWHP??? Who knows, but since we are predicting the future - I'll save 800+ RWHP.
ALL SPECULATION, as NONE of this info. came from Sean or anyone else. I just see a LOT of untapped potential from this system. In any case, I will be happy with my 600 RWHP on the street. I'll let the guys with more $$$ experiment to develop big numbers. Should be fun to watch....
"Predictions are fun, but make you look stoopid"
1.) Someone will develop a custom ground cam to maximize the Roe system.
2.) Head work will continue to advance to work WITH the Roe system.
3.) Better intake systems will be available.
4.) Someone will figure out how to incorporate an intercooler, allowing the boost to be increased to 10-12 PSI. I'll guess a 'sandwich' type unit.. (Hood clearance could be the limiting factor).
5.) Fuel system and VEC2 will be enhanced further.
6.) Ignition upgrades will be available.
7.) 9's in the 1/4. Will be right up there with the other Big Dogs.
8.) RWHP??? Who knows, but since we are predicting the future - I'll save 800+ RWHP.
ALL SPECULATION, as NONE of this info. came from Sean or anyone else. I just see a LOT of untapped potential from this system. In any case, I will be happy with my 600 RWHP on the street. I'll let the guys with more $$$ experiment to develop big numbers. Should be fun to watch....
"Predictions are fun, but make you look stoopid"
S
SUN RA KAT
Guest
With my measly 580.4 rear wheel horsepower Roe Supercharged Viper, I can tell you in the real world of driving that it is d-a-m-n fast and anything much faster still couldn't go any faster because of real world road and traffic conditions - unless you are much, much more insane than I am, which is probably impossible. In areas of the country where there is light traffic, good roads, and little interference from the long arm of the law, then I could see having more power, but you'd still have to be much, much more insane than I am, and you know the chances of that.
Would I like more power? I sure would just for bragging rights, but then I realise I haven't even used all the power that I already have. I guess for bragging rights I may just get a new license plate that says 680 HP and retire my 650 HP plate. (Flywheel HP is so much more impressive to the general public.)
Would I like more power? I sure would just for bragging rights, but then I realise I haven't even used all the power that I already have. I guess for bragging rights I may just get a new license plate that says 680 HP and retire my 650 HP plate. (Flywheel HP is so much more impressive to the general public.)
Tony runs a sub 10.5 quarter mile with a twin screw at the cost of $65000. Thats amazing. More horsepower doesnt mean your stock chassis car is going to go faster.(traction) Read tuners 1/4 mile times. It cost quite a bit more in order to gain tenths from where Tony is.
Everyone knows DLM makes a great system. No question about his happy customers.
It just comes down to what you want to spend.
The twin screw has been around for a long time and you get a great bang for the buck. Simple as that.
Everyone knows DLM makes a great system. No question about his happy customers.
It just comes down to what you want to spend.
The twin screw has been around for a long time and you get a great bang for the buck. Simple as that.
Joseph Dell
Enthusiast
http://www.kennebell.net/superchargers/ford/cobra03/cobra03-tech.htm
Look at this web site. Also look for some good info on the twin screw set-ups. Note also that the dyno graphs are similar to the posted twin screw graphs with one exception... on the vipers, the drop off happens sooner than on the kenne bell setups. Might be a) heat, or b) timing.
I agree with onerareviper's assessment. in 1 year, much of this discussion will be moot and the only discussion left will be TWIN SCREW VS. CENTRIFUGAL !
JD
Look at this web site. Also look for some good info on the twin screw set-ups. Note also that the dyno graphs are similar to the posted twin screw graphs with one exception... on the vipers, the drop off happens sooner than on the kenne bell setups. Might be a) heat, or b) timing.
I agree with onerareviper's assessment. in 1 year, much of this discussion will be moot and the only discussion left will be TWIN SCREW VS. CENTRIFUGAL !
JD
1TONY1
Enthusiast
Please don't tell my wife I spent $65,000 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No woder my credit card people are looking for me
MichaelP
Enthusiast
I saw that I though *** Tony was bullshiting us.
I take it he meant $6500 correct?
BTW Tony incase you missed it I PMed you about doing a package for me.
I take it he meant $6500 correct?
BTW Tony incase you missed it I PMed you about doing a package for me.
More likely airflow through the heads. The Cobra has 4 valves per cylinder, and Sean is firmly convinced that the stock Viper heads are choking up on him at 8 psi.
Tony, I had no idea you had spent so much on your blower. Did you get the 24 karat version?
Joseph Dell
Enthusiast
True of the mustang cobra. Look at some of the 2 valve heads on their site as well. And I only pick on them b/c they are a well-documented twin-screw set-up.
When Sean gets the kinks out of the 8lb setups, those will be very sharp.
JD
When Sean gets the kinks out of the 8lb setups, those will be very sharp.
JD
JD, you're preaching to the choir. I had a lengthy discussion on here with Sean (and others) because I also don't understand how KB can increase hp 50-100% through stock 2v GM and Ford truck engines, yet Viper heads (in Sean's opinion) choke up much earlier. I guess we'll see as higher boost versions continue to be tested.
Chuck B 98 GTS
Enthusiast
I don't understand how stock heads could choke up with efficient boost? Why is it that DLM Level 1 cars with BONE STOCK HEADS AND CAM can make 850+ horsepower at the engine with a centrifugal blower, but a twin screw can't??? Is it stock heads.... or is it a twin screw blower running out of it's efficiency range and begins it's cavitation point .
I have alot of respect for KB products but how many Viper engines have they supercharged?
.I have alot of respect for KB products but how many Viper engines have they supercharged?
Joseph Dell
Enthusiast
The answer is in the fuel curve!
I bet that if we all posted dyno #'s WITH fuel curves, we'd all learn a lot!
That being said, i don't have my dyno sessions w/ fuel curves.
Anyone can make power once. But to make it consistently reliable... that takes tallent. Did y'all see EXECUTRON's dyno graph? that had a telling fuel curve. And a perfect one too.
If the information existed, I'd compile a list of twin-screw, centrifugal, and turbo cars with their dyno graphs, air/fuel, AND boost numbers. Only then can the entire story be told.
So until then, I ponder and pontificate and try to avoid the flames coming my way.
I bet that if we all posted dyno #'s WITH fuel curves, we'd all learn a lot!
That being said, i don't have my dyno sessions w/ fuel curves.
Anyone can make power once. But to make it consistently reliable... that takes tallent. Did y'all see EXECUTRON's dyno graph? that had a telling fuel curve. And a perfect one too.
If the information existed, I'd compile a list of twin-screw, centrifugal, and turbo cars with their dyno graphs, air/fuel, AND boost numbers. Only then can the entire story be told.
So until then, I ponder and pontificate and try to avoid the flames coming my way.
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