Dynoed my Stock 98 GTS

[Bolt]

9-22-2006

Here is what my stock GTS put out today. I'll do the same next year and lets see what the numbers come up as then.

This car is extreemly stock. 21,000 Miles, original plugs and wires. I did not even put a new air cleaner on fo this. This is my baseline.

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Here is the video if you want to download it. Caution you need high speed to download.
http://imageevent.com/bolt/carvideos?p=1&n=1&m=24&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=2


Bolt

 

[kcobean]

Sounds about right based on standard drivetrain loss figures.

 

[Casey]

Seems low to me for a '98. But if it hasn't been cleaned out a bit, then that might be the difference.

Keep us informed on the progress!

 

[ASKYOURWIFE]

Yea to be honest that seems pretty low to me for a 98 as well....

If my stock 99 only puts down 385 rwhp on the dyno Ill be pretty **********...

Thats only 30-35 more rwhp than a bone stock 2002-2004 Z06...

I thought that from everything Ive read that stock gen 2 vipers dyno 395-410 rwhp?????

If they really only dyno 380-390 like your dyno suggest then mine might be getting sold....

 

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

You need to give that damn thing a tune up. I'm not sugar coating this for you, those numbers are low. 98's should pull better numbers then stock 00-02's and my 02 pulled a 410 rwhp and 450 rwtq. You are not doing yourself any favors by not changing the plugs, putting a new air filter in it, and changing the wires. Do that, and I wouldnt be suprised if the numbers come back up to where they should be.

Good luck,

Jon

UPDATE: The genius at the dyno shop decided to give you STD (standard) numbers instead of the UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED SAE !! Have the numbers corrected for SAE (no need to re-run the dyno, he can take the file and change the setting), and I hope to god they go up to where they should be!!

 

[RevHeat]

Jon is right. You need new plugs, new wires, fuel filter and a new air filter. Only after those things are done will you have a TRUE baseline.

Get those done then dyno and post the numbers again.

Rev

 

[kcobean]

How are these numbers low?

The standard drivetrain loss factor is 15%. With an engine rated at 450 SAE BHP, a 15% loss would be 382.5. Assuming a proper SAE correction and an even 450 BHP, he's at 14.5% drivetrain loss.

 

[kcobean]

Yea to be honest that seems pretty low to me for a 98 as well....

If my stock 99 only puts down 385 rwhp on the dyno Ill be pretty **********...

Thats only 30-35 more rwhp than a bone stock 2002-2004 Z06...

I thought that from everything Ive read that stock gen 2 vipers dyno 395-410 rwhp?????

If they really only dyno 380-390 like your dyno suggest then mine might be getting sold....

This is laughable. You're going to sell your car because it puts down 385 WHP instead of 395?

 

[kcobean]

,

 

[Supercharged Vipermad]

How are these numbers low?

Well, because they ARE lower than most other 98's....that's why. My 97 (granted, WITH K&N's and smooth tubes) pulled 435.

The numbers are lower than the median....no doubt about it.

Now...looking at the John said....the numbers are also wrong. When he gets the right numbers then we can decide.....but it is moot because the wrong correction was applied.

 

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

How are these numbers low?

The standard drivetrain loss factor is 15%. With an engine rated at 450 SAE BHP, a 15% loss would be 382.5. Assuming a proper SAE correction and an even 450 BHP, he's at 14.5% drivetrain loss.

Dude, I know you have blasted on the scene here and have made your self quite apparent on the board, but we know our cars!! Any seasoned viper guy worth his weight in salt can pretty much clip off average dyno numbers for most of the years. This guy is low. No one is knocking him, we just know our cars, his is one of THE lowest dyno numbers i have seen for a GTS PERIOD. Check the registry, there are TONS of dyno numbers that owners have posted for their stock vipers. Might help to get you up to *****.

Jon

PS. Who has that link to those 30-50+ stock Viper dyno numbers that someone has been collecting for years, that chat was kick *** !! Its on here somewhere, but its only probably about 3-4 years old. Someone find it!!

 

[RevHeat]

PS. Who has that link to those 30-50+ stock Viper dyno numbers that someone has been collecting for years, that chat was kick *** !! Its on here somewhere, but its only probably about 3-4 years old. Someone find it!!

[/QUOTE]

This is not it, however it does have some dyno numbers recorded.

http://www.viperclub.org/menus/index_ivr_records.htm

My 96 GTS with just the K&N filter system and Borla exhaust dynoed at 442 rwhp and 482 Rwtq. He really needs to get the car tuned.

 

[Casey]

I did a quick search, and from the dozen or so I ran across, those are the LOWEST I've seen also for a stock Gen II regardless of the year.

 

[kcobean]

How are these numbers low?

The standard drivetrain loss factor is 15%. With an engine rated at 450 SAE BHP, a 15% loss would be 382.5. Assuming a proper SAE correction and an even 450 BHP, he's at 14.5% drivetrain loss.

Dude, I know you have blasted on the scene here and have made your self quite apparent on the board, but we know our cars!! Any seasoned viper guy worth his weight in salt can pretty much clip off average dyno numbers for most of the years. This guy is low. No one is knocking him, we just know our cars, his is one of THE lowest dyno numbers i have seen for a GTS PERIOD. Check the registry, there are TONS of dyno numbers that owners have posted for their stock vipers. Might help to get you up to *****.

Jon

"Quite Apparent"? If I didn't know better, I'd think you were calling me obnoxious! I'm just asking a question and I contribute when possible. My apologies if I'm off base on this one.

I don't doubt in the least that you know your cars. As such, I was hoping that you seasoned Viper guys could educate me on how a Viper that is rated at 450 BHP can pull 400+ WHP, when that equates to ~10% drivetrain loss. Is the BHP rating from Dodge low, or is the tranny just that efficient? I'm sorry if you think I'm 'blazing' in here as a newbie Viper owner, I'm not trying to be, I'm just trying to understand the mechanics that are resulting in these numbers that are so much higher than I would expect.

 

[Leslie]

Yea to be honest that seems pretty low to me for a 98 as well....

If my stock 99 only puts down 385 rwhp on the dyno Ill be pretty **********...

Thats only 30-35 more rwhp than a bone stock 2002-2004 Z06...

I thought that from everything Ive read that stock gen 2 vipers dyno 395-410 rwhp?????

If they really only dyno 380-390 like your dyno suggest then mine might be getting sold....

I have an '02 Z06 with headers/exhaust/t body/ LS edit (all bolt on mods)
making 400rwhp

about as much as you can do on a Z06 without going into the engine

 

[Jack B]

What makes it worse is they used STD correction numbers, this inflates the hp number relative to SAE correction factors. If they were SAE numbers they would be about 8 hp lower.

It is time to change plugs and wires and while you have the plugs out, a compression check is in order.

 

[BigDane]

How are these numbers low?

The standard drivetrain loss factor is 15%. With an engine rated at 450 SAE BHP, a 15% loss would be 382.5. Assuming a proper SAE correction and an even 450 BHP, he's at 14.5% drivetrain loss.

Dude, I know you have blasted on the scene here and have made your self quite apparent on the board, but we know our cars!! Any seasoned viper guy worth his weight in salt can pretty much clip off average dyno numbers for most of the years. This guy is low. No one is knocking him, we just know our cars, his is one of THE lowest dyno numbers i have seen for a GTS PERIOD. Check the registry, there are TONS of dyno numbers that owners have posted for their stock vipers. Might help to get you up to *****.

Jon

"Quite Apparent"? If I didn't know better, I'd think you were calling me obnoxious! I'm just asking a question and I contribute when possible. My apologies if I'm off base on this one.

I don't doubt in the least that you know your cars. As such, I was hoping that you seasoned Viper guys could educate me on how a Viper that is rated at 450 BHP can pull 400+ WHP, when that equates to ~10% drivetrain loss. Is the BHP rating from Dodge low, or is the tranny just that efficient? I'm sorry if you think I'm 'blazing' in here as a newbie Viper owner, I'm not trying to be, I'm just trying to understand the mechanics that are resulting in these numbers that are so much higher than I would expect.

Gen 2s were underated form the factory, my 01 did 408whp and 444 tq running pig rich.

 

[cyaford]

Hey Bolt. Have you taken it down the track yet? I look at the dyno as being a tool, although larger numbers make you feel nice. When you start modding, go to the same dyno so you can get a general idea of how much your combo of mods are helping. 442hp/495tq(15% loss?) is not too bad. My '02 Z06 dyno'd 386rwhp on one dyno and 403rwhp on another. No changes in mods, just a different dyno on a different day. Both dyno's were DynoJet brand.

 

[Oldwilsonian]

Jon, you're right,(look at the way the curves are breaking up) get a tune-up & change the filters, correct the SAE Factor and he should be low 400's. But this whole dyno numbers thing - there is just so many variables that come into play. You state your car made 410, if that was made up North on a cool November day you would not replicate that here in Florida in August in the height of heat & humidity this would have a marked effect on the numbers. There is even debate as to differences in numbers due to Dynamometer manufacturers. Dynajet are considered to be the industry standard though.
We have a Dynajet 248X at my shop, my '02 GTS pulled 395 - stock, out of interest we pulled off the airbox & tubes, let a bag of ice cool off the intake for a while and pulled a 425, remember this is Florida too. If it's just bragging rights on a graph print out you want it's not difficult to get your numbers up there.

Have to defend kcobean though in theory he is correct, we normally allow 10-15% loss through the drivetrain, so best case scenario would be 405, unless DC are being somewhat conservative with their crank HP numbers. On this board we are all over different parts of the country, as I have stated It's impossible to make true direct comparisons, the only way is to all get together on the same day at the same shop then we could all compare numbers - but of course this just isn't feasible.

Incidentally I have a friend who works for SRT Mopar Racing Division and he informs me that he has seen a variance as much as 20 HP on identical cars, but these were all 2000 - 2002.

Good luck to Bolt, to pull 385 with a bad tune - can only get better!!

 

[SnakeBitten]

Im pretty sure that the average properly running Gen II's dyno between 410-420rwhp....Its common knowledge that they are underrated from the factory...
Driven well stock Gen II's will do 118-120mph in the 1/4...Do the math. 395rwhp aint gonna push a 3450lb car to those speeds in the 1/4. Ive been around here long enough to know anything under 400rwhp in a Gen II is weak...

 

[kcobean]

Its common knowledge that they are underrated from the factory...

ok, it all makes sense then if that's the case. Newbie stands corrected and throws away the standard math equations.

 

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

"Quite Apparent"? If I didn't know better, I'd think you were calling me obnoxious! I'm just asking a question and I contribute when possible. My apologies if I'm off base on this one.

I don't doubt in the least that you know your cars.

I'm sorry if you think I'm 'blazing' in here as a newbie Viper owner, I'm not trying to be, I'm just trying to understand the mechanics that are resulting in these numbers that are so much higher than I would expect.

Definitly not calling you obnoxious, I own that title. I'm just saying you are doing a great job getting yourself exposure on here, and I have taken notice to some of your thread and agreed with them, so much that I didnt have to post (probably a bad thing for you). I think what I lacked in eliquence in my response, was that I was trying to say I know you are trying and are very active on here, but sometimes you have to bow to some of the guys who have ate, slept and breathed these cars for years now (you will too some day), because stuff like reading reoccuring dyno results posts, and going to many many many viper dyno events, etc, will yield a lot of real world experience(s). I drew from mine, and felt like you were calling me out, so I rushed to defend.

BTW, I like your avatar, I think thats really why I recognize you, no one elses is like yours.. we need some copy cats, so you wont stand out so much

Blaze away !!


Jon

PS. Short answer, yes, gen 2 vipers were greatly under rated, 96-97's the most underrated.

 

[Bolt]

I realize the numbers are low and I will be getting the SAE printout. I was going to take it down the track today but they are calling for rain all day.

Guys,

I'm proud these numbers are low. I don't care if it puts out 385 or could put out 395 or 400. Who cares if the plug are new or old. This thing is going through a make over soon I'm hoping to gain an extra 200 hp. I see either twin turbos, supercarger, or a bottle in my future. I got plans for this and this is my baseline. Beat it up as you may. It's reality. This is what you get from a daily driver with minimum maintenance.

Great replies.
Thank you,
Bolt

 

[Parisianviper]

It is time to change plugs and wires and while you have the plugs out, a compression check is in order.

Hello,
I have a candid question: You would change the stock wires because you think they deteriorated over time or because aftermarket bigger wires (8,5mm) give you more Hp?

 

[Supercharged Vipermad]

John owns the title, no doubt.

kcobean just never realized the cars were severely under-rated from the factory....now all the comments make some sense.

Bolt's car is stronger than he thinks at this point...and a baseline is a baseline. Just want to make sure you are comparing apples to apples when you dyno it AFTER your top secret mods.

MY CAR is clean (go figure), dry, and has a full tank....see ya'll!!

 

[Jack B]

Parisan:

plug wires don't make more hp, they allow you full hp. On a 1998 car the wires cannot be perfect.

As I said before you should also take about 8 hp off (385-8=377) the quoted numbers since the shop used STD correction factors. That makes the hp higher than the SAE numbers. If the is car dynoed again and returns those numbers it has to be looked at, there is something wrong. My stock 97 dyno'ed at 415 and my Gen 1, was close to 400.

The dyno curve as posted looks normal, but, they put a lot of smoothing (5) into the graph, it would be interesting to repost the graph with no smoothing and STD correction factor. With no smoothng the car may not lose the full 8 hp because a peak may increase the hp aboved the curve.

Someone may also want to ask why they used STD and so much smoothing. If the curve is reposted with no smoothing we can diagnose it a bit better.

 

[PatentLaw]

Jon is starting to go "snakes" on us. Adds entertainment value.

 

[GTS Dean]

As stated numberous times, those numbers are severely low. One thing you need to check when you make dyno pulls is that the floor mat doesn't bunch up under the gas pedal and restrict travel. I've seen that happen more than once. My car has been tested more than half a dozen times in the last 7 years and 18k miles. With a fully warmed motor, it has pulled between 409 and 414 hp every time.

Regarding driveline loss:

Several years ago, Sean Roe built a World Challenge '98 Viper. He had the engine dyno'd on a stand, then took the same motor and installed it in the car. He then had it chassis dyno'd on a DynoJet.

THE CORRECT *ACTUAL* DRIVELINE LOSS FOR A GEN 2 VIPER IS 12.7%

 

[FE 065]

Good point about changing the plugs and wires on an older car. I'll have to do mine asap.

Reading through the Summit catalog, I see a lot of low ohm loss per foot claims for various wires..are there any brands of wires to avoid because they're more race than street and don't shield the current going through them well enough to avoid radio or other on-car electronics interference?

 

[Joseph Dell]

We had a car in the GA club a couple of years back... 2000, headers, cat-back, hi-flow cats, throttle bodies... put down 377/420. the guy was PO'd because he'd paid around 10k for the parts install. but the car wasn't "tuned" so it ran weak. oh yeah... it needed plugs and wires too.

plugs and wires should be changed for sure. i bet that if you change the plugs and wires, the car will pick up 20hp at least. compression check i'd do _after_ you change plugs and wires and re-dyno or take it down the track.

JD