Factory supercharged V-10 in development?

[ontariomystic]

Maybe they will put the new 3.3tvs on top.

 

[Jack B]

Bob

no one has an open PCM?? They would go to jail.

The problem with the Gen IV was the lack of an open Code controller available to use with the application. If the open Code controller for the Gen V engine is adaptable to the Gen IV engine, perhaps that problem will be solved. We will have to wait and see.

I would guess that if MOPAR is doing any serious boost product after market development now it would be for the SRT 8 engines. There are quite a few reliable boost variants available for the 6.1 engine and, if the controller problem is solved for the 6.4 engine, a low boost application should be safe so we should see that become available pretty quickly. The Diablo Sport Trinity T1000 has been updated to include support for the 6.4 liter engine but I do not know whether that includes programming for boosted applications.

 

[Paolo Castellano]

I do not belive that supercharging the V10 by the factory is in the cards for the Viper. The rumor does not make any business sense. SRT, at least at the moment, is a new and emerging Brand with a limited budget. If you read Sergio M's recent comments on Allpar, which include comments about the economics of V10s and V12s, I seriously doubt any budget for development and certification of a supercharged V10 engine would be approved. On the other hand, we know that Mopar will be coming out with an open code controller for the Gen V. This means that it will only be a matter of time before the aftermarket develops a supercharger kit for the car. If it is a centrifugal kit, the X brace might not be in the way. For an Eaton application, the X brace would have to be replaced with a reinforced square brace or something similar. Other changes might be needed depending on the power increase.

The bottom line is that developing a supercharged V10 is an expensive proposition and changing other components of the car to provide the required dependability and durability for an OEM car with the power level involved would also be costly. Keep in mind that the Corvette ZR1 engine, in a detuned state, has found its way into the CTS-V Cadillacs and the ZL1 Camaro. So Chevy invested the money and used the engine across multiple products. The Viper V10 is not used outside the Viper. It is a miracle that SRT was able to convince the bean counters that the V10 should even continue in today's tight business environment. We may love it but the strongly rumored 6.2 liter supercharged V8 hemi engine that has allegedly been under development for a number of years could easily be used across product lines like the ZR1 engine is used. The Viper variant would achieve the top HP and TQ. I am not saying this will happen but from a business point of view, notwithstanding the die hard V10 lovers, it can make sense.

Bob, great post!

An open code controller for the Gen V would be fantastic!

While I agree the centrifugal would be easier to fit than an eaton style supercharger, the blower with airbox and liquid to air intercooler will definitely block the airflow through the radiator making it very susceptible to heat soak if doing repeated highway pulls or road racing.

I think a turbo setup from the aftermarket would be a better fit with the X-Brace with a liquid to air intercooler setup for the street cars. A set of air to air intercoolers placed behind where the fog lights used to go for the road race cars would be ideal.

 

[I Bin Therbefor]

If Chrysler follows through with a factory supercharger, it will likely be offered (if not standard) on all Vipers. I think the ACR is too small of a business case. I'm pretty sure they were testing something in the 750+ hp range in the last couple of years.

Ralph and the rest of the team have stated several times that one of the things they learned from Ferrari is how to make a profit on small production runs. Apparently, one element of that is to deal with suppliers who know how to make a profit for themselves on small production runs. Another element is to minimize the capital expenditute on machines and utilize more human input. Which is my way of saying that I expect a lot of small production runs of special models from SRT, at a profit.

IMO, the blower version would be a street model and the NA version would be the track model.

 

[The_Greg]

Hasn't Ralph said, either on twitter or in person, that there will be no FI on this car?

EDIT: I also have been inside of Arrow within the last 6 months and didn't see any superchargers laying around, FWIW.

 

[Nine Ball]

I would be interested in seeing SRT/Mopar offer a complete bolt-on supercharger system for the Gen 5. Even if it were rated for 100-125 hp, with a conservative tune, it would sell like hotcakes.

Bonus points if they offer it as a RPO code option package. Or a dealership installed package.

 

[shine]

IMO, the blower version would be a street model and the NA version would be the track model.

X2. No track rat wants a blower that can get heat soaked, especially when you already have 640 on tap N/A.

Now those guys who do the Texas Mile or the Bonneville Salt Flats... that's another story

Having an aftermarket greatly opens up the desirability of these cars.. I think that's why you still see so many Gen IVs unsold. People love to tinker with performance cars, and if you can't do anything but add an exhaust and some motor mounts, the car is much less desirable.

Case in point: the LSx platform and how much of a market it has created. The new Ford 5.0 Coyote engine followed their model. SRT didn't... and it's been feeling the pain since they switched the V-8s from the open 6.1L to the closed 6.4L.

 

[eucharistos]

....IMO, the blower version would be a street model and the NA version would be the track model.

X2. No track rat wants a blower that can get heat soaked, especially when you already have 640 on tap N/A.

Now those guys who do the Texas Mile or the Bonneville Salt Flats... that's another story

.....

x3,

also, paolo makes good points but i wouldn't mind a factory blower bump hood

 

[ViperTony]

I just don't see a Supercharged V10 getting done by anyone at Chrysler be it Mopar or SRT at this stage for the GenV. Think about it for a moment....the GenV (as with all previous generations) is not a mass production Viper. Out of say 3,000 GenV's that may be sold, if 10% wanted a supercharger option/bolt-on package from Mopar, it's too little to justify the cost, research, engineering, production and support (not to mention marketing) of producing such an option for a very small customer base.

Then there's the issue of warranty. I just don't see Chrysler covering the warranty with a supercharger on the Viper. More than likely, such an option would void the warranty entirely if past indication of owners modifying their Vipers who had their warranties voided by dealers in doing so.

The addition of a supercharger from Mopar may require a different hood for clearance. And what of the crossbrace?

I do have hope, however, that since Ralph has stated numerous times that the GenV internals have been beefed up for the aftermarket that indeed aftermarket tuners will be allowed to offer tuning for the GenV PCM. I don't think it would be unreasonable for reputable/experience dealership to be allowed to offer tuning for the GenV PCM in a controlled environment. If Ralph is indeed serious that this GenV is aftermarket friendly, then tuning is a must for that to happen. I just don't see an aftermarket vendor investing in a supercharger platform for the GenV if they don't get SRT/Mopar backing and access to the GenV PCM...and support.

Don't hold your breath on this.

 

[Jack B]

To add to your insight, in the new viper book, it is explained that the forged pistons are there
because a large part of the increased hp comes from more aggressive timing and leaner a/f levels.

I just don't see a Supercharged V10 getting done by anyone at Chrysler be it Mopar or SRT at this stage for the GenV. Think about it for a moment....the GenV (as with all previous generations) is not a mass production Viper. Out of say 3,000 GenV's that may be sold, if 10% wanted a supercharger option/bolt-on package from Mopar, it's too little to justify the cost, research, engineering, production and support (not to mention marketing) of producing such an option for a very small customer base.

Then there's the issue of warranty. I just don't see Chrysler covering the warranty with a supercharger on the Viper. More than likely, such an option would void the warranty entirely if past indication of owners modifying their Vipers who had their warranties voided by dealers in doing so.

The addition of a supercharger from Mopar may require a different hood for clearance. And what of the crossbrace?

I do have hope, however, that since Ralph has stated numerous times that the GenV internals have been beefed up for the aftermarket that indeed aftermarket tuners will be allowed to offer tuning for the GenV PCM. I don't think it would be unreasonable for reputable/experience dealership to be allowed to offer tuning for the GenV PCM in a controlled environment. If Ralph is indeed serious that this GenV is aftermarket friendly, then tuning is a must for that to happen. I just don't see an aftermarket vendor investing in a supercharger platform for the GenV if they don't get SRT/Mopar backing and access to the GenV PCM...and support.

Don't hold your breath on this.

 

[SADVIPER]

it's the only way it's going to be able to run with the C7 ZR1

unbielevable, a car not out yet and not tested against the Viper yet and u claim it is faster. meh I dont care anyway.

 

[kdaviper]

According to the Allpar member OH20 (an extremely credible source), There is no sign of a factory supercharged V-10 in the cards at this moment.

 

[cerveza v10]

It would be nice to have one available whether it's from the aftermarket or from the factory...
The bottom line all comes down to whether the factory is willing to let us into the computer....
Just my 2 cents.....

 

[JAY]

A Business case could be made when you Factor in 20 years of Vipers and about 20,000 units made , at a 10% to 15% Market Share , thats nothing to sneeze at .
The Gen 5 was not to be , but it too Rose through the Ash's of Cerberus . 1 Year from now should be very interesting .

 

[Paul Hawker]

In conversations with several SRT people it is evident that they are at least thinking about superchargers for the line. While this may or may never come to fruitation, it is clear that they are aware of the benefits of forced induction.

 

[Jack B]

They could sell a complete kit, the kit would include the SC, plus, the mopar pcm specific to the that SC option.

It would be nice to have one available whether it's from the aftermarket or from the factory...
The bottom line all comes down to whether the factory is willing to let us into the computer....
Just my 2 cents.....

 

[Torquemonster]

Fortune favors the brave, and SRT have the balls to do this.

As has been said, there are extremely talented niche small firms that are experts at low production hand built runs, and because the major component is labor, the costs are easily passed on with margin. When you do not have to factor into your costings the cost of capital on millions in equipment, but rely more on skill, top work is actually more affordable for small runs than a high tech production line. Bring it on

 

[Ray W]

Ralph did say the new computer would be open on the GEN V. He did not say to what extent or if it would be an offroad only unit. It would not be in their best interest to open up the GEN IV now. If you want to mod your new Viper you need a GEN V built by the recently purchased SRT brand.
Got to keep those new car sales up. If you could just mod your GEN IV they could lose some potential buyers for the GEN V.

 

[kennyhemi]

That hasn't even came out yet....

+1 people need to stop making things better before they come out! Ie...I heard this car xyz coming out in the year 2525 if man is still alive that will be faster then anything out there....lol

 

[ACRucrazy]

Ralph did say the new computer would be open on the GEN V. He did not say to what extent or if it would be an offroad only unit. It would not be in their best interest to open up the GEN IV now. If you want to mod your new Viper you need a GEN V built by the recently purchased SRT brand.Got to keep those new car sales up. If you could just mod your GEN IV they could lose some potential buyers for the GEN V.

If I was in the market for a Gen IV I would pass right for the Gen V computers on either opened up or not. I don't think the less than 3,000 total Gen IVs that were built and even less available on the market are a concern for SRT.

 

[Indy]

Well, so far, all Vipers came with the same engine. By offering a supercharger, they would make the current models "base models", kind of like a regular Corvette vs a ZR1. That thought doesn't really tickle my fancy, since the majority of Viper owners would become 2nd rate owners.

 

[ACRucrazy]

A Viper will never be 2nd rate. And to compare the Viper to the Corvette, less than 30k Vipers made in 20 years. The Corvette sold 42k in 1992 and 1993 alone. There has been over 1.5 million Corvettes made. What makes a Viper 2nd rate? The fact that each new model gets better? If that's the case I hope ever existing Viper becomes 2nd rate at the beginning of each new production year.

 

[ViperSmith]

I think he was referring to the fact that there would be "two tiers" of Vipers - but in reality it is sort of that way now (SRT/GTS models)

Personally, I don't see it that way at all.

 

[ACRucrazy]

I am all about more options. I am glad to see a "to the roots" SRT for under 100k. I would really hate to see a 1 option GTS for 130k+ Props to SRT for doing it right. You have to remember the "base" SRT is leaps and bounds better than any Viper prior (maybe not performance wise of ACR, but build quality, standard features, advanced technologies etc) And still a reasonable price. As long as the prices are justified offer whatever options they want IMO.

 

[Indy]

I think he was referring to the fact that there would be "two tiers" of Vipers - but in reality it is sort of that way now (SRT/GTS models)

Personally, I don't see it that way at all.

Yes, I was referring to the fact that should a supercharged version come out, that would be the one to go for. Kind of like the V8 and V10 Audi R8. Of course the Viper will never be second rate.

 

[SnakeBitten]

Well, so far, all Vipers came with the same engine. By offering a supercharger, they would make the current models "base models", kind of like a regular Corvette vs a ZR1. That thought doesn't really tickle my fancy, since the majority of Viper owners would become 2nd rate owners.

This kind of thinking would have meant NO ACR. Nobody wants that. Imo let the Viper line evolve in whatever direction it needs to to ensure its survival and relevance.

On another note its not a stretch to say the next ZR1 will beat the current Gen V as it stands. It has a hard time with the current ZR1 in the straights and just cant compete with it on a circuit track..........yet. So I'm not sure why so many are getting at the guy that stated that SRT will have to step up the Viper's game to be in the same realm of the next ZR1. He is stating a fact that also happens to be common sense and I highly doubt that Chevy will take a page out of SRT's book and tune the next ZR1 with parts to make it slower than its older main rival.

Is a supercharger the answer? With 8.4 ltr on tap I don't necessarily think so. They could certainly bump hp a good bit and still keep it NA. Lighten the weight a bit more, give the car trofeos or mpsc and some CCB's and let Stryker do what he should have been doing from day one. MHO.

 

[Torquemonster]

I'd support any boost program, but to my mind, this is the real answer.

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Can run the same full length race style exhaust that a blower setup would like yet move the heat and weight to the rear. Add to that tuning and sizing so there is no boost until 2k with boost regulated till 4k (ie full boost from 4-6.5k) and you've got a very driveable setup that won't overpower the tires under 3000rpm much more than a stock one would, but from 4-6.5 it'd be a monster. That'd make for a sweet ride on the road or track. Vipers don't need more torque under 3k. Well, in my opinion anyway lol

 

[speedracervr4]

^^^Those type of systems **** and will more than likely detonate your motor.

 

[Torquemonster]

^^^Those type of systems **** and will more than likely detonate your motor.

Absolute rubbish. Show me your mates grenaded DIY and I'll show you either an engine that should never have been boosted by any system (beçause it was tired), had a failed inferior part (which will kill any system), or was just a bad combo/tune.

For every one of those that blew there are many more of every other kind of power adder system that have blown their engines up. Roots would be the worst - useless inefficient POS they are at anything less than 8-71 and wound up on ****. But the knuckle draggers think they are cool on low boost street cars.

The cause of failure is not the fact the turbos are remote but the fact that typically these systems are done on the cheap and often DIY. People try to add too much boost to high compression engines or cut corners. Then they tell the world the system *****. No they ****, or who-ever did it or made the failed part *****

From an engineering point of view the remote mount system can be extremely effective and they power some of the worlds fastest cars - 6 second Vette comes to mind. They're can be very efficient and reliable, my own daily driver being one.

There is far more heat soak in a positive displacement blower sitting on top of the intake than on a remote mount where the intake actually cools on its way to the engine. Even with all the resources at GM's disposal watch a ZO6 pull a ZR1 in bit by bit over a track day as the ZR1 simply heat soaks and loses power while the ZO6 just keeps consistent lap times.

At low boost remote mounts don't even need an intercooler. I use water/**** only to get decent timing from boost on pump gas as I have 10.7:1 compression. Trust me it works just fine.

 

[The_Greg]

Absolute rubbish. Show me your mates grenaded DIY and I'll show you either an engine that should never have been boosted by any system (beçause it was tired), had a failed inferior part (which will kill any system), or was just a bad combo/tune.

For every one of those that blew there are many more of every other kind of power adder system that have blown their engines up. Roots would be the worst - useless inefficient POS they are at anything less than 8-71 and wound up on ****. But the knuckle draggers think they are cool on low boost street cars.

The cause of failure is not the fact the turbos are remote but the fact that typically these systems are done on the cheap and often DIY. People try to add too much boost to high compression engines or cut corners. Then they tell the world the system *****. No they ****, or who-ever did it or made the failed part *****

From an engineering point of view the remote mount system can be extremely effective and they power some of the worlds fastest cars - 6 second Vette comes to mind. They're can be very efficient and reliable, my own daily driver being one.

There is far more heat soak in a positive displacement blower sitting on top of the intake than on a remote mount where the intake actually cools on its way to the engine. Even with all the resources at GM's disposal watch a ZO6 pull a ZR1 in bit by bit over a track day as the ZR1 simply heat soaks and loses power while the ZO6 just keeps consistent lap times.

At low boost remote mounts don't even need an intercooler. I use water/**** only to get decent timing from boost on pump gas as I have 10.7:1 compression. Trust me it works just fine.

Great points. Detonation can be completely avoided with proper timing, though there are many other factors that determine if an engine will detonate. It has extremely little to do with where the turbos are mounted. I'm curious what your DD is that has remote mounts... Obviously no production car has remotes, but I'm still curious. **** and boost are a match made in heaven.