First Twin Turbo Gen IV

[repiv]

With all the changes he listed above that were made to the engine I do not see how the cam within a cam system and the venom programming could have survived for use with the stroker engine and the twin turbos. The SRT Engineers have posted that the Venom programming is very complex and finicky and not friendly to mods. There have been past posts by site sponsor tuners indicating that even just to supercharge the Gen IV would require a cam change and different programming. Also, I thought that the MOTEC was a stand alone controller not a piggy back. Please explain what was done here in more detail. Thanks in advance for your explanation.

as malu explained, the some of the details of the motec steup are on other threads.

the motec is a "standalone", but as in the setup in my car, the motec is used to fully control specific parameters of the engine (different for each car). Other functions are handled by the stock ecu, again as in my car and other applications where an M800 box is used in a viper

 

[gb66gth]

Spectacular!

 

[aries]

What size are those wheels and tires? What kind of tires are they?

 

[Bobpantax]

as malu explained, the some of the details of the motec steup are on other threads.

the motec is a "standalone", but as in the setup in my car, the motec is used to fully control specific parameters of the engine (different for each car). Other functions are handled by the stock ecu, again as in my car and other applications where an M800 box is used in a viper

Yes. But I believe that your car is a 2006. Modifying a 2006 with a twin turbo and modifying a 2008 are two entirely different matters. The 2006 did not have VVT and Venom programming. From the Alley - the answer to my question:

First a big thanks to the guys at Underground. It is a pleasure working with them, and they really make my job easy/pleasurable in that the cars they turn out are very high quality builds and I have zero issues with them, period. I have sent personal friends/clients there for builds, for good reason.

The 2008 was really fun to work with, Dodge made some great improvements in a lot of little ways that really were a step in the right direction (especially when going TT

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)

The VVT works great with the turbos, and the low end feels very impressive. Not to mention it makes power like it has a good size cam in it (but still idles like stock). Though for those of you so inclined, a bit of lope could probably be programmed in! LOL

I see zero reason to ditch the DBW, as Kevin mentioned. DBW offers some on the fly tuning adjustment we haven't had before with standard throttles. I can also tune the throttle response curve based on wheel slip (if car is fitted with the optional traction control kit), or have a "wet/valet" setting for both the TC and the DBW. The options are vast with what we can do. Not to mention being able to mix and match throttle bodies to gain a desired result (without messing around with changing cables or pedals). The OEM plastic ones just don't fit with a quality looking build full of polished parts and they had to go.


Additional posts make it clear that the installation of the MOTEC and proper tuning of the new system is a somewhat difficult endeavor. My congratulations to Underground for figuring this out. Fascinating stuff.

 

[repiv]

Yes. But I believe that your car is a 2006. Modifying a 2006 with a twin turbo and modifying a 2008 are two entirely different matters. The 2006 did not have VVT and Venom programming.

agreed, however

the premise of how the motec operates on my 06 and the 08 is the same in terms of how it interface or ingores the factory ECU, dependent upon the fuction desired, VVT/cam issues aside. Hence the comment, the m800 is a "standalone", yet the factory ECU is still in the car and controlling certain functions while the Motec fully controls other functions.

 

[HI-NOS-Viper]

Simply amazing. What size are the turbos? 88's?

 

[John Reed]

Yes. But I believe that your car is a 2006. Modifying a 2006 with a twin turbo and modifying a 2008 are two entirely different matters. The 2006 did not have VVT and Venom programming. From the Alley - the answer to my question:
Additional posts make it clear that the installation of the MOTEC and proper tuning of the new system is a somewhat difficult endeavor. My congratulations to Underground for figuring this out. Fascinating stuff.

I cannot say what the SRT engineers spoke of in regards to the camshaft control. Perhaps it is just the overall difficulty to keep things happy if you were trying to do a blower or something with a "piggyback" style fuel management.

With the MoTeC I have full control of the camshaft position, and I can define the position I want at various load/rpm points via a 3D table. It really works well. The car drives like a small cam car around town, idle, etc and then makes power like you magically stuffed a good cam in it at higher load levels. Really pairs nicely with the turbos when setup right!

This technology is pretty new for the Viper world, but some of the engines I work with have 4 of these in one engine (DOHC V engines with movable intake and exhaust cams). I think the OEMs are doing it to improve emissions and low speed driveability while still maintaining/increasing the power potential on a given platform. We can take advantage of it for ourselves also!

 

[sween]

WOW!! great lookin viper

 

[Rick530]

How much??????????????????????????????? I NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDD this done to my car!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ILLSMOQ]

a few grizwalds

 

[UndergroundRacing.com]

How much??????????????????????????????? I NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDD this done to my car!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for all the compliments and PM's! You guys can call me anytime for more information on the 08-09 TT SRT. Videos coming soon.
Thanks,

Kevin Howeth

 

[motor602]

Like many other, Im curious as to what kind of wheels those are!!

 

[motor602]

hang on, HRE 798R's?

 

[Scott_in_FL]

Aren't an '06 tt build and an '08 tt build going to net about similar hp? They use the same block, and both are typically overbored and then built up with forged parts. Don't you end up with basically the same engine except for the VVT? So, although it is a great achievement to crack the '08 and get this done, and UGR seems to be an amazing builder, doesn't it still make sense to start with the '06 (cheaper to acquire, cheaper to build (no vvt))? Just wondering.

 

[Darbgnik]

Aren't an '06 tt build and an '08 tt build going to net about similar hp? They use the same block, and both are typically overbored and then built up with forged parts. Don't you end up with basically the same engine except for the VVT? So, although it is a great achievement to crack the '08 and get this done, and UGR seems to be an amazing builder, doesn't it still make sense to start with the '06 (cheaper to acquire, cheaper to build (no vvt))? Just wondering.

Cheaper, probably, but cooler?????

 

[UndergroundRacing.com]

Aren't an '06 tt build and an '08 tt build going to net about similar hp? They use the same block, and both are typically overbored and then built up with forged parts. Don't you end up with basically the same engine except for the VVT? So, although it is a great achievement to crack the '08 and get this done, and UGR seems to be an amazing builder, doesn't it still make sense to start with the '06 (cheaper to acquire, cheaper to build (no vvt))? Just wondering.

The 08 Viper with the TT setup are far superior than the 06 Viper with the TT set up. Heads are MUCH improved as the VVT and the DBW make it very nice!

Thanks, Kevin Howeth

 

[plumcrazy]

06 TT = good

08 TT = GOODER

 

[Moundir]

The 08 Viper with the TT setup are far superior than the 06 Viper with the TT set up. Heads are MUCH improved as the VVT and the DBW make it very nice!

Thanks, Kevin Howeth

So other than making slightly more hp, what exactly is nicer on the 08s? Are you talking about the car's over all performance? Can you please elaborate? Great looking car and congrats on cracking the computer

 

[Viper Specialty]

Aren't an '06 tt build and an '08 tt build going to net about similar hp? They use the same block, and both are typically overbored and then built up with forged parts. Don't you end up with basically the same engine except for the VVT? So, although it is a great achievement to crack the '08 and get this done, and UGR seems to be an amazing builder, doesn't it still make sense to start with the '06 (cheaper to acquire, cheaper to build (no vvt))? Just wondering.

It would depend on the route you took. An 03-06 platform with Striker heads and a nice Turbo cam will make similar numbers under the same conditions as a 2008 with the VVT set up similarly. Block wise, yes, they will likely end up with similar or identical bores and strokes once everything is set up, run similar rotating assemblies, etc. There are some tid-bits that are different in design such as hardware sizes, but when it comes to the aftermarket, either one can be brought to comparable specifications. The 03-06 use 1/2" hardware, while the 08+ is M12. 1/2" hardware nets a 20% strength increase over M12, so it is likely that some of the big builds would experience an issue if not increased in size. 1/2" hardware has never experienced a problem that I am aware of, especially after studding- but the 08-09 would require a jump to 9/16 or M14... a pretty large cost in machining, let alone custom hardware. 08-09 has a more stable valvetrain out of the box. Some people like DBW, some dont. The G3 Computers can be worked with. The G4, not yet, maybe not at all- requiring Motec support.

Basically, for an "all-out" build, the numbers will likely come back similarly. The 08-09 cars have some drivetrain advantages out of the box, The VVT cars will be "more refined" in the larger packages especially, but at a higher pricetag due to system controls and other machine work. Smaller packages will likely be astronomically more expensive on the 08-09 cars, as any type of FI requires a LARGE amount of engine & control system changes...


They both have their advantages and disadvantages at different break points...

 

[1fast400]

Why is the car always heat soaked?

Cause it has been 90+ and humid as hell all summer here. When tuning and making a ton of runs, no way to keep the car cool in this air.

Now all that car needs is an automatic . Everyone can cuss me, but the performance difference is mind blowing. I have an UGR TT GTS with a TH400 and I wouldn't have it any other way.

UGR is always turning out incredible cars, everyone knew it would only be time before this happened. Whoever the owner is, be safe, that's a beast.

 

[steponz]

I'll keep my six speed...

 

[steponz]

What gearing are you running in the 08?

3.33?

Was rear end upgraded at all?

 

[Guy]

Awesome stuff guys! Congrats!

To answer a quick comment about the MoTeC, it can be used as a standalone ECU, however you can also use it as a piggyback, or simply have it take over some controls from the factory ECU such as fuel and ignition.

On cars where the factory has spent thousands of hours of research tuning a complex feature (such as the 4WD system on a Skyline GTR, or the VVT system in this case), why bother replicating all this work in the tuning of the MoTeC, when you can leave the factory ECU to take care of that and have the MoTeC handle the engine tuning etc.?

In my opinion there's no real additional pride in having just the MoTeC ECU in the car..

I had the first fully functioning 4WD MoTeC'd Skyline GTR in Europe quite some years back, because of how the MoTeC was cleverly installed along with the factory ECUs. People proudly going for the standalone option at the time were ending up with RWD Skylines..

I still have an M800 lying around.. I guess all I need now is everything else!

 

[Alexarz]

The 08 Viper with the TT setup are far superior than the 06 Viper with the TT set up. Heads are MUCH improved as the VVT and the DBW make it very nice!

Thanks, Kevin Howeth

Yes but Stryker heads are better flowing than '08 Viper heads.

Underground has surely left the other Viper tuners in the dust with heroic accomplishments running one after another. Are Heffner and Hennessey still in business? I haven't heard a peep from either in recent times. Meanwhile, UG is living the life of the rich and famous. I bet this Kevin guy gets a lot of tail (probably not as much as I get, but a whole lot).

 

[Scott_in_FL]

Heffner and Hennessey are now focused on different cars (even though both got their start with Vipers, Heffner seems to be focusing on Lambos and Hennessey seems to be working the GTR, Camaro, ZR1 crowd these days).

 

[1fast400]

Yes but Stryker heads are better flowing than '08 Viper heads.

Underground has surely left the other Viper tuners in the dust with heroic accomplishments running one after another. Are Heffner and Hennessey still in business? I haven't heard a peep from either in recent times. Meanwhile, UG is living the life of the rich and famous. I bet this Kevin guy gets a lot of tail (probably not as much as I get, but a whole lot).

Kevin has a smokin hot wife. I just wish she'd quit calling me.......

In another year UGR will be the only shop people take lambo's. Last time I was there, must have been 6 lambo's in there. In the past year I've seen at least 4-5 in there at any one time.

 

[UndergroundRacing.com]

I have never seen any Viper make what this Underground Racing TT 08 has put down at the 10-19 psi boost range. These 08's are very impressive and they have made a ton of upgrades. The 08 intake is one of the biggest improvements along with the DBW and VVT it is just a killer set up! Not only that the stock twin disc clutch and the improved 08 tranny are just added bonuses. I will be selling my 06 TT car soon and will be buying a 08 to upgrade.


We are very focused on the Viper and Lamborghini Gallardo, Murcielago platform at this time along with a few others that will be talked about soon

 

[HI-NOS-Viper]

So when can we expect this beast to kill your previous UR twin turbo viper time? I can hear 7.5's six speed record soon

 

[KenricGTS]

UGR how much for the twins? My ACR is ordered and love BIG power.

 

[Greg-TT]

The 08 Viper with the TT setup are far superior than the 06 Viper with the TT set up. Heads are MUCH improved as the VVT and the DBW make it very nice!

Thanks, Kevin Howeth

Kevin, I've been trying to get a hold you for the last two weeks.... where are you????