Gen III oiling issues

[MTGTS]

You guys are really making me reconsider my "it'll be OK attitude". ....The more seat time I've been having, my lap times have been falling, and planning to step up to Hoosiers next season...............The pan shouldn't be that hard to change.....

change the pan before you go to Hoosiers!!!

 

[Allan]

I am changing it before the next season starts.

 

[David Pintaric]

All,

I have a Gen 4 pan and pickup modified for a Gen 3 motor in the classifieds. This was used in my SCCA STO car and served me well.

 

[COILD]

I have had my #33 Comp Coupe since new in July 2003. I have the original factory sealed motor with 5992 miles and 72:49 hours and 15,971,035 crankshaft revs and still no babbit in the oil filters. Oil pan and valve covers have never been off. I am going to race another full season this year. Road Atlanta, Sebring, Daytona, VIR, Palm Beach, Homestead, Roebling, and Savannah. I have installed one set of plugs in 10 years. Awesome car!!

 

[swexlin]

I have had my #33 Comp Coupe since new in July 2003. I have the original factory sealed motor with 5992 miles and 72:49 hours and 15,971,035 crankshaft revs and still no babbit in the oil filters. Oil pan and valve covers have never been off. I am going to race another full season this year. Road Atlanta, Sebring, Daytona, VIR, Palm Beach, Homestead, Roebling, and Savannah. I have installed one set of plugs in 10 years. Awesome car!!

But the Comp Coupe has the upgraded pan from the factory, correct?

 

[MTGTS]

But the Comp Coupe has the upgraded pan from the factory, correct?

Yes, they do

 

[redtanrt10]

Swexlin, until Dan produced the modified G4 version, you had to buy the comp coupe pan if you wanted to upgrade your G3. Dan can explain the difference (and his upgrades) between the two pans, his pan is better than the comp coupe pan.

 

[Viper Specialty]

I have had my #33 Comp Coupe since new in July 2003. I have the original factory sealed motor with 5992 miles and 72:49 hours and 15,971,035 crankshaft revs and still no babbit in the oil filters. Oil pan and valve covers have never been off. I am going to race another full season this year. Road Atlanta, Sebring, Daytona, VIR, Palm Beach, Homestead, Roebling, and Savannah. I have installed one set of plugs in 10 years. Awesome car!!

I caution you.

One of the largest portions of our business is rebuilding the Race engines for the Vipers running in NARRA. I am not sure of your driving skill and how hard the car is being raced, but it is very rare for hard competition race engines that do not have dry sumps to exceed 100 hours of race time, and many fail with FAR less time than that. Our engines greatly exceed this mark even in wet sump form, but it is very rare to see any of the wet-sump engines from other builders get even close to our engines in terms of expected life span. Many of them fail in the 1-40 hour range from builders you would easily recognize, with decently built engines in the 50-90 hour range, of which 70-90 is usually for stock factory built engines. Assuming a Piston ring land isn't the first failure if the engine is stock, the rod bearings will start to go, at which time the failure will occur at an exponential rate. When they do go they take the crank with them in a best case scenario, but usually the crank, cam, timing cover, and even the block on occasion. I strongly advise having your engine refreshed around the 75-80 hour mark- the cost of the crank alone will pay for a basic refresh.

And yes, most comp coupes do have a swing-arm pan. It is not as good as our version of it, but it is far better than stock.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Swexlin, until Dan produced the modified G4 version, you had to buy the comp coupe pan if you wanted to upgrade your G3. Dan can explain the difference (and his upgrades) between the two pans, his pan is better than the comp coupe pan.

The CC pas has a longer swing arm that is positioned further forward, and only swings to the passenger side. The CC Pan is also based on the G3 oil pan, and much of the baffling is removed for it to function. the G4 oil pans are positioned more towards center, and swing in both directions. The G4 pan is of course based on the G4 oil pan, which is unmodified and designed around a swing arm. The CC pans are slightly more prone to starvation under acceleration, and under sweeping right hand turns than the G4 version.

 

[ipetrov]

"The CC pans are slightly more prone to starvation under acceleration, and under sweeping right hand turns than the G4 version."

So starvation can occur under acceleration? Or is it just a case for Comp Coups because of the much harder acceleration (given much better power/weight)?

 

[Dom426h]

ipetrov, the CC pan has the pickup further forward in the pan. I assume while accelerating the g-forces can cause the oil rush to the back.(away from the pickup)

Try this experiment:
Take a shoe-box, fill it halfway with water, put it on the ground and quickly push it forward. Where does the water go?

 

[Viper X]

"The CC pans are slightly more prone to starvation under acceleration, and under sweeping right hand turns than the G4 version."

So starvation can occur under acceleration? Or is it just a case for Comp Coups because of the much harder acceleration (given much better power/weight)?

Oil starvation can occur under any circumstances with the Gen III, including but not limimted to rights, lefts, acceleration and heavy extended braking (though this is less likely).

Oil starvation can also occur with the Gen IV if you don't keep your oil level up. I always keep my oil level at least above the "full line" on the dipstick even in my Gen IV.

ALWAYS run extra oil on a track day, at least 1/2 a quart.....and your best bet if running a Gen III on the track is to upgrade to Dan's Gen IV oil pan set up for Gen III, unless you want to spend big bucks on a full dry sump set up.

Dan

 

[ipetrov]

Thanks, Dom, didn't think of that. Well explained.

ipetrov, the CC pan has the pickup further forward in the pan. I assume while accelerating the g-forces can cause the oil rush to the back.(away from the pickup)

Try this experiment:
Take a shoe-box, fill it halfway with water, put it on the ground and quickly push it forward. Where does the water go?

 

[ipetrov]

Thanks, Dan. The Gen IV pan will be my next upgrade.

The only Gen IV track blow-up I had read about on these forums was caused by something other than oiling, I believe a headgasket. But I'm just a keyboard warrior at this point, as much as I hate to admit it. That's why I appreciate it when seasoned track guys like you weigh in.

Oil starvation can occur under any circumstances with the Gen III, including but not limimted to rights, lefts, acceleration and heavy extended braking (though this is less likely).

Oil starvation can also occur with the Gen IV if you don't keep your oil level up. I always keep my oil level at least above the "full line" on the dipstick even in my Gen IV.

ALWAYS run extra oil on a track day, at least 1/2 a quart.....and your best bet if running a Gen III on the track is to upgrade to Dan's Gen IV oil pan set up for Gen III, unless you want to spend big bucks on a full dry sump set up.

Dan

 

[Garron]

Thanks, Dan. The Gen IV pan will be my next upgrade.

The only Gen IV track blow-up I had read about on these forums was caused by something other than oiling, I believe a headgasket. But I'm just a keyboard warrior at this point, as much as I hate to admit it. That's why I appreciate it when seasoned track guys like you weigh in.

I had one Gen 4 viper with both rod #3 and #4 bearings completely damaged. The oil was two months old and still on the full line. There is no such thing as a perfect wet sump system. The Gen 4 pan is a well developed wet sump but not perfect.

I agree with Viper X about keeping the level right up. Many of our track guys overfill 1/2 liter of oil when at the track as a little more reserve. It really depends how you drive the vehicle, for a street car that is not raced I do not believe the swing arm pan is a necessity. If you are tracking the car you should do something. I have the CC pan on my personal vehicle. I installed it before the gen 4 upgrade was out and have never had a problem. I like the Gen 4 pan because it has better baffling and better design in general. But again it is not perfect

On my comp coupe team we had to abandon the wet sump altogether. With four slicks on a comp coupe we hit 6 PSI oil pressure in a corner (recorded in data), the driver had enough and we went dry sump.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Yes, Garron is correct. In no way should it be confused with being a perfect fix in all circumstances. NO wet sump is perfect, they simply cannot be by design. The different pan designs do have different limits, of which the G4 version is the top of the heap in this regard. However, your driving skill and setup are what determines whether each version is adequate for your use. A car on street tires or even slicks with a moderate driver would be hard pressed to exceed a Gen-4 based wet sump, ever. Even our seasoned full-race USGTU customers can get a full season out of a G4 Wet Sump with a substantial safety margin.

The cost of a dry-sump must be weighed. At least in the case of our engines, we have been able to get longevity with the Wet Sump high enough where the customer has a real decision if they are in hard competition: Spend the money on a dry-sump and refresh every two seasons, or don't and refresh every season. In either case, safety margins exist reliably.

For street cars or weekend warriors, a wet-sump based G4 pan will do you fine 99.9% of the time, which is a big leg up on older pan designs.

 

[JAY]

Great info thanx for Sharing Garron / Dan ! I went with Gen 4 pan for my application

 

[Allan]

Finally installed my gen IV pan with the swinging arm pick-up. Having this stuff side by side on the floor really makes this upgrade a no-brainer. I can't believe how much better the gen IV design is. And now I see why the gen III loses pressure in the turns. I am really lucky to be just changing the pan and not the engine!

 

[ipetrov]

Now if we can figure out a way to get rid of the 400% viper tax on the Mopar parts, it would probably become a very very popular mod for all Gen III owners.

Congrats on your recent upgrade, Allan!

Finally installed my gen IV pan with the swinging arm pick-up. Having this stuff side by side on the floor really makes this upgrade a no-brainer. I can't believe how much better the gen IV design is. And now I see why the gen III loses pressure in the turns. I am really lucky to be just changing the pan and not the engine!