Gen V ACR Needed For Ring Time

[SnakeBitten]

These cars were in development long before the acr set the ring record. It takes many years of planning to put a 1m super car together. An acr is hardly going to incite mega manufacturers to build a 1m car to beat it. Especially when they are already selling more units of slower than acr cars. The bean counters have to approve the cars, they have to be designed tested tuned and crashed tested for every major market. It takes several years to build a car from scratch.

Well I did not mean the Viper itself caused them to make each car although I see it came across like that but the pursuit of the "Ring Title" seems to be both Porsches and Mclarens focus now. It wasnt the focus with the F1, 12C for Mclaren nor for the CGT for Porsche. Porsche tried with the GT2 RS but came up a bit short vs the ACR even though the way they got the 7:18 was questioned. Now neither is playing hence my feeling that the title being held so long by an economy car mfg may have made them focus on the Ring Title a bit more. Do we know if both P1 and 918 were developed from the start to set the Nurburgring record? Its possible that during development, while the ACR was making a name for itself, the focus was shifted a bit.

I wouldn't be so quick to assume the ACR dominance didnt register a blip on any of those mfg's radar. Just look how Nissans 300zx/Honda's NSX made the Euro car mfgs reassess and put out better products. Just my 2c.

 

[ACR steve]

Ok you guys heard It first here ACRSteve's prediction when tested the future ACR will break the 7:00 barrier at the Ring
Why?
1) Ralph will make sure it does- I have 100% confidence in him- He gets all this stuff better then we do ,hes a car guy 110%
2) New car is as fast without aero- we know at a track like the Ring aero is worth 6-8 seconds at the very least
3) tires the car comes with will be better
4) Car will be lighter the stock car and stiffer
5) This time we will have more lap time
6) I think it might have a little more HP over the current car

We may not be the fastest ever but we will brake 7 minutes - you guys hear it first

 

[PDCjonny]

6 speed manual or DCT paddles Steve?

 

[ACR steve]

ViperJon- I am good but not that good. If I had that answer then I would buy lotto tickets

I will say Paddles are faster but they cost more. Up in the air on that one . With the new GT3 Porsche only aval in PDK I will tell you in 5 years no one will have an h-pattern car.

 

[Indy]

With the new GT3 Porsche only aval in PDK I will tell you in 5 years no one will have an h-pattern car.

According to autocar, the new Lambo Cabrera will be offered in a 6 speed manual

 

[bluestreak]

Ok you guys heard It first here ACRSteve's prediction when tested the future ACR will break the 7:00 barrier at the Ring
Why?
1) Ralph will make sure it does- I have 100% confidence in him- He gets all this stuff better then we do ,hes a car guy 110%
2) New car is as fast without aero- we know at a track like the Ring aero is worth 6-8 seconds at the very least
3) tires the car comes with will be better
4) Car will be lighter the stock car and stiffer
5) This time we will have more lap time
6) I think it might have a little more HP over the current car

We may not be the fastest ever but we will brake 7 minutes - you guys hear it first

New car has not proven as fast without aero, different testing conditions, different drivers, different circumstances. Plus Laguna is not much of an aero track, the Nurburgring has many more parts that will be aided by aero. Give Randy Pobst a 2010 Gen IV ACR, a private test day at Laguna, some SRT engineers, and call him a punk again, and watch the ACR fly! LOL.

 

[bluestreak]

According to autocar, the new Lambo Cabrera will be offered in a 6 speed manual

Audi still makes a manual, BMW is bringing them back to the new M's. The manual isn't going to die any time soon. Porsche will see the light and follow the same course. Watch.

 

[Boxer12]

Here is the P1's video of its 'sub 7 min' run...

http://youtu.be/E9IWiTpWeiM

Frankly, I have to laugh at anyone who thinks the Ring record is unimportant.

 

[bluestreak]

I think everyone else is laughing that you think SRT should try and battle these cars with their budget.

 

[ACR steve]

PDK Is faster then manual any day of the week. If you ever race a PDK on the track you would never want to go back to manual.

 

[chorps]

I think everyone else is laughing that you think SRT should try and battle these cars with their budget.

I bet everyone else said the same thing before the 2008 ACR came out too.

The game is much more competitive these days though.

 

[ViperSmith]

I bet everyone else said the same thing before the 2008 ACR came out too.

The game is much more competitive these days though.

As much as I love American innovation and scrapiness.

I have no idea how SRT could best a 6:47 time. That is well over 20 seconds to make up.

I'll gladly be proven wrong, but I don't see it happening.

 

[TrackAire]

Most are taking a rumor that the P1 ran a 6:47 minute Ring lap as gospel.

Just the facts up to this point:
-There is no video proof (everybody else posts a video with timer, etc) of the Ring attempt and time.
-Was this a production car?......I'll wager money that it is not a vehicle that can be sold in the USA (legally)

Can the P1 run a sub 7 minute lap?.....for the money they are charging I'd sure hope so. McLaren, either shut up or put up the video. I'm starting to think the McLaren P1 may not be the dominator Ron Dennis has been bragging about...oh, oh. The rumor of 6:47 means it ran a lap as fast as the Pagani Zonda R (I believe on full slicks) and the Pagani R is pretty much a full on race car. But the difference is Pagani has the video posted on the internet. Sorry McLaren....no video means no bragging rights.

This is a pretty aggressive run:

http://jalopnik.com/5597644/the-pagani-zonda-rs-insane-nurburging-record-run

My estimate is an aero equipped TA with R compound tires would run between a 7:04 and 7:08 lap. A Gen 5 ACR?....depends how radical it is.

George

 

[chorps]

As much as I love American innovation and scrapiness.

I have no idea how SRT could best a 6:47 time. That is well over 20 seconds to make up.

I'll gladly be proven wrong, but I don't see it happening.

There's probably another 3 seconds that the 2010 ACR could have wrung out under perfect conditions, like all other manufacturers wait to get for that the Viper never gets (time and budgetary constraints). Still, knocking 20 seconds off would be really tough. I wonder if a horsepower bumped Gen V with aero tweaks could do it if it was a totally stripped down car? Would probably need to target a 3000 pound curb weight and 800hp/7000rpm to do it. Going with CCBs would be some pretty significant weight savings too.

Given the current design of the Viper (steel frame, body on frame construction, even front-engined) there may not be enough in there to beat the super hybrids within the budget constraints. Still, I like to root for the underdog. I can't afford the P1.

 

[Boxer12]

I believe a new generation purpose built tire could shave 7 sec off alone. CCB's? another few seconds. DCT? another few seconds. Less wt and more power with aero? unlimited time savings depending on how extreme they can go...

 

[bluestreak]

PDK Is faster then manual any day of the week. If you ever race a PDK on the track you would never want to go back to manual.

No, not really, when Porsche first released the PDK, they did back to back testing on the ring with PDK and the times were identical. This is a direct quote taken from factory driver Walter Rohl when asked how the times between the manual and PDK fared. His exact words were, "the times were identical". It's in one of the Porsche magazines, cant remember which.

I bet everyone else said the same thing before the 2008 ACR came out too.

The game is much more competitive these days though.

Competition is everything. Winning your local amateur track event and winning a Grand Am race are two different things.

I believe a new generation purpose built tire could shave 7 sec off alone. CCB's? another few seconds. DCT? another few seconds. Less wt and more power with aero? unlimited time savings depending on how extreme they can go...

CCB's several seconds? Um no. And unless you are talking about a non street legal tire, there is no tire in existence that's worth 7 seconds over MPSC, heck the slicks on the ACR-X were only worth 9 seconds. You expect slick level grip from a street tire? And on top of that doubt they are going to make one for a production run of a couple hundred cars for your hypothetical 200k ACR. Less weight, more power and aero are legit.

 

[Boxer12]

Remember it's over seven miles and the Viper's Cup tires are outdated and all tires even slicks have a sweet spot when they are fast then fall off (and that can be a sec a mile). I also think in 5 years tire tech advances have been significant. I can gain or lose a sec a mile with pads so I'm sure CCB's would be at least as significant.
But the big plus is designing the tire for CCB's and the Ring's 111+ mph avg lap times, which will be huge and can yield a second a mile, yes it's very possible. Dunlop apparently built a tire for the GT-R's ring effort so why wouldn't Pirelli want to get a piece of the record?

 

[bluestreak]

My point is that it's 8 seconds at the ring from regular street tires to R-compounds and R compounds to slicks. Sorry but tire technology is not advancing nearly that fast. You won't find any R-compounds today that are as fast as slicks were 5 years ago. Not even remotely. MPSC are hardly outdated in terms of speed. They are competitive with anything else out there. MPSC 2 and Trofeo R ARE the new technology and are not that much faster.

I don't buy the 1 second per mile on pads unless you choose some pads that just are not cut out for the track at all. Among decent braking compounds, not a chance. And still a big fat no on CCB's vs steel. In fact many have liked steel better than CCB an have tested better in some tests. CCB need steady heat, and long straights at the ring means they cool and don't provide the instantaneous bite. For a one hot lap, steel is better. CCB's are good for unsprung weight and heat resistance.

111 mph average speed means you don't spend a lot of time braking or getting heat in the brakes, benefit steel.

 

[ACR steve]

Bluestreak- that may have been the first gen but now the new PDK is insane. I race the last Porsche Cup car with a h- pattern 2005 Cup. The new 991 Cups transmission is amazing. Faster and stronger than any the past. Transmission technology has come a very long way in the last couple years.

 

[bluestreak]

Bluestreak- that may have been the first gen but now the new PDK is insane. I race the last Porsche Cup car with a h- pattern 2005 Cup. The new 991 Cups transmission is amazing. Faster and stronger than any the past. Transmission technology has come a very long way in the last couple years.

Comparing 996 cups to 997 cups to PDK generation 1,2 and PDK S is crossing a lot of boundaries. People thought the super fast shifts would amount to many many seconds on the track, turns out it amounted to very little (none actually at first). I would dare to say the gap between manual and Generation 1 PDK is bigger than the gap between the Generation 1 and Generation 2 or PDK-S. The feel, and control of it may be different, but superfast shifts are superfast shifts. For an amateur, sure it may amount to a couple of seconds on a track, but a very good amateur-pro will not yield a big gap.

I guess my point is more or less, that people shouldn't be expecting large gaps in nurburgring lap time due to a new transmission. They simply just aren't that big of a deal to a pro driver.

To your point on cups though, if you look at PCA lap records for various tracks, early 997 Cups were about 2 seconds faster than 996 cups. This in spite of more hp, bigger brakes, wider bodies, better aero, wider and newer tires etc etc etc. Put that same box in another 996 cup and it's pretty much the same speed as the manual for a very good driver. Over the course of a race, driver error for all of those shifts certainly comes into play, but for a one lap flyer, not so much.

 

[ACR steve]

Bluestreak- very incorrect info my friend. You can argue that it takes away from the experience. But you cant argue the latest generation of PDK or systems like it doesn't save time on a road course.

Truth is you cant make a better shift then the new 991 PDK type trans. Even if a driver was able to make the best shift possible, they couldn't do it for every shift. Just think about the number of shifts in one lap at the Ring. Just think of it like drag racing . There is a reason the fastest cars are automatic. You cant shift fast enough . I guess the F1 guys have it wrong as well. Honestly you need to get with the times my friend. I race and have raced only H pattern cars because I am a purest and enjoy the art probably like you. However the manual clutch peddle is a dying devise whether you and I like it or not.

Trust me I have won over 12 championships in my racing carrier and have raced everything from open wheel to Nascar and everything in between. A lap record and I held lots and still hold lots is all about saving fractions of seconds that add up at the end of a lap

 

[bluestreak]

Bluestreak- very incorrect info my friend. You can argue that it takes away from the experience. But you cant argue the latest generation of PDK or systems like it doesn't save time on a road course.

Truth is you cant make a better shift then the new 991 PDK type trans. Even if a driver was able to make the best shift possible, they couldn't do it for every shift. Just think about the number of shifts in one lap at the Ring. Just think of it like drag racing . There is a reason the fastest cars are automatic. You cant shift fast enough . I guess the F1 guys have it wrong as well. Honestly you need to get with the times my friend. I race and have raced only H pattern cars because I am a purest and enjoy the art probably like you. However the manual clutch peddle is a dying devise whether you and I like it or not.

Trust me I have won over 12 championships in my racing carrier and have raced everything from open wheel to Nascar and everything in between. A lap record and I held lots and still hold lots is all about saving fractions of seconds that add up at the end of a lap

If driving around a track were all about going in a straight line, you would be correct, unfortunately it's not. And yes you can certainly make a fast enough shift not to give the car time enough to slow down it's speed of acceleration. Fast enough not to be recognized by data systems and fast enough to not lose an inch to a dual clutch/ sequential on a straight. I've done it and do it on a regular basis.

Your logic sounds great, and I'm sure a lot of people thought that, but when Porsche came back with identical times, the theory didn't work so much in practice did it? You can't have it both ways. The extra weight carries a penalty in every braking zone, essentially nullifying any ACTUAL hundreths gained on the straight by shifts.

There is no other way you can explain identical times over a track as long and the nurburgring with that many shifts over the course of a lap. But you can go ahead and try......

 

[ACR steve]

I hope people don't believe your logic. Totally not correct.

There are so many other factors between a 996 and a first gen 997 Cup Car. Not to mention the PDK is a totally different animal. Unfortunately you lack real experience. By the way on an upshift it wouldn’t be about as you say “fast enough shift not to give the car time enough to slow down” Even a slow shifter would be fast enough not to lose speed. It’s more about those tenths of a second in the lost opportunity to be accelerating (gain speed) that would equate to lost time

Your Porsche test that you state . Well in real world 996 Cup lap record for the Glen is over 2.5 seconds faster for 997 . The 997 Cup runs in GTC-4 and not GTC-3 because it is faster

I guess racers like me that actually own a Cup car and have tested with both don't really know. Porsche ,Lamborghini ,Ferrari etc. all of which did away with a manual clutch, don’t get it either.


By the way thanks for pointing out about road courses are not about straight lines. I guess in my 100's of races I never realized that!

I look forward to seeing you at the track some time so you can give me some pointers well at least some point bye’s J

 

[bluestreak]

I hope people don't believe your logic. Totally not correct.

There are so many other factors between a 996 and a first gen 997 Cup Car. Not to mention the PDK is a totally different animal. Unfortunately you lack real experience. By the way on an upshift it wouldn’t be about as you say “fast enough shift not to give the car time enough to slow down” Even a slow shifter would be fast enough not to lose speed. It’s more about those tenths of a second in the lost opportunity to be accelerating (gain speed) that would equate to lost time

Your Porsche test that you state . Well in real world 996 Cup lap record for the Glen is over 2.5 seconds faster for 997 . The 997 Cup runs in GTC-4 and not GTC-3 because it is faster

I guess racers like me that actually own a Cup car and have tested with both don't really know. Porsche ,Lamborghini ,Ferrari etc. all of which did away with a manual clutch, don’t get it either.


By the way thanks for pointing out about road courses are not about straight lines. I guess in my 100's of races I never realized that!

I look forward to seeing you at the track some time so you can give me some pointers well at least some point bye’s J

I lack real experience? You clearly know nothing about me.......

996-997 Cup Times (GTC3-GTC4) -

Road Atlanta - 2 sec
Road America - 1.5 sec
Mid Ohio - 1 sec
Barber - 1 sec
NJMP Lightning- 1.5 sec
CMP - (.4 sec) loss
NJMP thunderbolt (no chicane) - Tie
VIR - 2.5 sec
Sebring 1.5 sec.

Now this is amateur racing, so for the most part, guys are not getting everything out of their cars but we can see a pattern here. The gap is not that big. And for every OTHER improvement other than Sequential you have to subtract from said gap. Would you like for me to go through all of the other improvements? So we can derive how small the ACTUAL gap is? All, or even a majority of the time difference is not from the sequential. Watch Leh Keen drive his GT3 RS and tell me he would lose time to a sequential.. LOL. We are talking about pro drivers here........

And let's not presume PDK is better. It doesn't give nearly the control of a mechanical sequential. And is far heavier. Undoubtedly a pro driver can make use of those extra lbs not in the car.

There are a lot of guys that "race" cups. And get passed by 997 street cars with just enough on them to make them race legal but with mostly full interior in them. I know some of the guys personally. I know plenty about PCA racing. You will have to do more to substantiate your "race skills" to me.

However, we can surely discuss this like grown men and offer up some facts rather than getting upset because we don't agree. At the end of the day, the only real quantifiable evidence is same day, same track, same driver testing with both cars. We don't have much of that to pull from. And coming directly from the mac daddy of Porsche saying "times are identical" it's hard for you to make a contrary argument.

 

[SnakeBitten]

You two have locked horns lol. Im not trying to get in the way but from a layman like myself when it comes to roadracing its hard to imagine a DCT type tranny not being an advantage than a manual shift if all other variables are equal. Whether its a big or a small improvement is another argument imho. On a track like the Ring with quite a few straights and semi straights its conceivable that the straightline advantage of a DCT type tranny would garner a few tenths in those spots while its advantage is curtailed in the more technical, slower corners no?

Did Porsche run those two cars back to back, same day, same driver to come to that conclusion that its a wash Bluestreak? If so it is pretty hard to argue against that in relation to Porsches. Id hesitate to say it is that way for all other mfg's version of a DCT vs their manual offerings. Just my 2c

 

[bluestreak]

SnakeBitten, I don't know their exact testing method. All I know for sure are two things. With the 997, the first generation PDK was tested head to head with the manual at the ring. Factory Porsche driver Walter Rohrl, when asked how the times compared, said "they were identical". Then when the 997.2 came out, Porsche put out an article that said the second generation PDK was 8 seconds faster than the manual, but the PDK had sport tires (meaning sport cups) which have been tested to exactly 8 seconds faster than Porsche's run of the mill tires (different days). So in essence, there still was no difference. Multiple tests, pretty much the same result.

Now we all know there are a lot of shifts at the Nurburgring, AND that Porsche builds good stuff. You aren't likely going to install someone else's dual clutch in the car and go faster. So the question is why the dual clutch didn't go any faster on a track with that many shifts. I don't have a concrete answer, I can only speculate unless we had data. There is the extra weight.

Ultimately all I'm saying is that the faboyism of dual clutch is highly overrated vs a skilled driver. There are torque converter auto's that shift faster than human, look at the C7, all of the auto's have the fastest times, shift faster etc. but I bet you its not faster around a circuit relative to it's straight line speed, which a lot of people are using to extract lap time difference's incorrectly. Why? I don't know why. I just know that everything does not just add up and fall into place.

Torque converter auto - faster than manual in straight line, slower around circuit. This much I think has been proven.
Dual clutch auto - faster than manual in straight line, equal to barely faster around circuit with skilled driver?

 

[ACR steve]

Love to see you drive a 7 speed manual box and say that you can shift faster than a PDK.

That's the whole idea with PDK you can have more gears and not be penalized by the increase in number of shifts. Its documented no human can shift as fast, there is no argument on this. You keep talking about upshifts. Love to see your heel toe on a 7 to 3rd or 2nd down shift - good luck in the braking zone. Honestly you may be a good guy but you aren't a great racer. A great racer would see there are huge advantages to the new technology and learn to exploit those advantages to suit their driving style. Even if they didn't like it they know its faster and therefore know they have to use it.

That's what this whole Ring Record thing is about . Exploiting the best use of the best vehicle a manufacturer has to yield the best times.

By the way if you have any questions about my driving ability and know so much about Porsche racing. Ask some of your buddies that maybe here in the North East that race Porsche's or any Viper track guys in the North East. If you don't know anyone maybe you should ask NARRA about me. Better yet ask Ralph himself about me since you seem to know SRT so well.




It’s not a personal thing against you it’s just the facts here.

 

[VENOM V]

Here's my view. I'm more of an intermediate driver rather than a pro, but I am an avid tracker:

I'm personally happy with either transmission, and I believe that you don't need a DCT auto to take the Ring record. I think that it may help, but it's contribution would be smaller than other factors such as better tires, big active aero, brakes, and who knows what else.

But the reality is that a large number of candidate Viper owners are already driving DCT trannies, and if SRT wants to capture that market segment, then they need to get one in the car. That said, there may or may not be budget for it, and there may be issues getting one to fit in the Viper as some have pointed out. I'd personally opt for the stick shift, especially of a DCT is a pricey option.

Either way, I'd buy an ACR in the future. But people like my friend Mike who has owned Ferraris, a Lambo and a Porsche Cup Car want the DCT. He drove my Viper at Laguna Seca a few weeks ago, and absolutely loved it. He said without question he'd buy one if it had a DCT. His case may be more unique than others, he has a knee that gets aggravated from clutching, although he can heel-toe with the best of them.

To me it's less of an issue of taking track records. To drive sales, the Viper needs a DCT I believe. Not a crappy slush-box auto like what's on the C7 (Mike drove one on track and said nooooo waaaaay). A true high performance auto like a DCT.

 

[bluestreak]

Love to see you drive a 7 speed manual box and say that you can shift faster than a PDK.

That's the whole idea with PDK you can have more gears and not be penalized by the increase in number of shifts. Its documented no human can shift as fast, there is no argument on this. You keep talking about upshifts. Love to see your heel toe on a 7 to 3rd or 2nd down shift - good luck in the braking zone. Honestly you may be a good guy but you aren't a great racer. A great racer would see there are huge advantages to the new technology and learn to exploit those advantages to suit their driving style. Even if they didn't like it they know its faster and therefore know they have to use it.

That's what this whole Ring Record thing is about . Exploiting the best use of the best vehicle a manufacturer has to yield the best times.

By the way if you have any questions about my driving ability and know so much about Porsche racing. Ask some of your buddies that maybe here in the North East that race Porsche's or any Viper track guys in the North East. If you don't know anyone maybe you should ask NARRA about me. Better yet ask Ralph himself about me since you seem to know SRT so well.




It’s not a personal thing against you it’s just the facts here.

We are not talking about race craft here, not even a sprint race. We are talking about outright speed for one flying lap. Let's stay on topic.

The Porsche 7 speed manual is based on the PDK, shares some parts and is pretty much as heavy. I wouldn't want to drive that particular 7 speed manual as it gives up the one advantage the manual still has (weight). Now keep in mind, a regular street 997 tied a PDK 997 with small race clutches. Imagine what a lwfw and small diameter clutch would have done? Possibly won? I'm sure Porsche really didn't want to admit that this box they worked all these years on couldn't out do a good driver on the nurburgring rowing his own gears, but alas, it was the case.

Yet if I did drive one, I wouldn't shift to every gear on the way down. I'd skip some, maybe all of them with a quick big blip into 2nd or 3rd pending entry speed right before turn in, problem solved.

New generation slush box auto shift faster than humans as well, and accelerate faster too, yet none of them are considered faster on track. So like I said it's not all about shift speed, there are many other parts to a lap, and many other factors that contribute to a lap time.

Note you misunderstood what I said earlier with regards to shifting. I said you can shift without slowing down the SPEED of acceleration. Not slowing down period. There is a distinct difference. But FYI you can most certainly shift slow enough to actually slow down. These are the people who will lose a lot of time to sequentials on track.


All of your bravado is only setting yourself up, I'm not even going to go there. However I will say that just maybe we will meet at a NARRA event one day. And maybe I can show you how to shift faster.......

(j/k)

 

[Torquemonster]

Need it be said that comparing shift times between a Porsche Cup car and a TR6060 is a little funny don't you think? The stick shift Porsche cars can be shifted like lightning, so PDK wouldn't offer the same edge, but against a TR6060 a PDK would be worth measurable gains around a big track like the Ring IMO. THe TR6060 has come a long way since the 1st T56 but it is still a long way from the GTR or Porsche Cup car shift speeds even in good hands. The GTR punches well above its weight in good part due to the fact it loses very little acceleration during a shift compared to a Viper which has to monster back with raw power what it loses each shift. It might only be hundreths of a second in expert hands per shift but that adds up