Alexarz
Enthusiast
I agree. He damn near turned us into a 3rd world country after Clinton did so much good. It's a damn shame and thank god it is almost over.
GM/Chrysler Merger Update
- Thread starter Matt Houston
- Start date
I agree. He damn near turned us into a 3rd world country after Clinton did so much good. It's a damn shame and thank god it is almost over.
A little bit of history:
1. Nasdaq in 2/2000: 4696.69
2. Nasdaq in 12/2000: 2470.52
Bush is sworn in January 2001.
9/11 happens. Nasdaq at 1498.8.
9/02: Nasdaq at 1172.05
10/07: Nasdaq at 2859.12
2/08: Nasdaq at 2271.48
The collapse of the Nasdaq at the end of the Clinton administration was the beginning of what we are now experiencing. It is a small miracle that it did not happen long before now. Or, viewed another way, perhaps the powers that be should have let it happen before now. Perhaps it would have been far less devastating to many. Of course, maturity and individual responsibility do not seem to be PC anymore in our country. The name of the game is "blame the other guy".
1. Nasdaq in 2/2000: 4696.69
2. Nasdaq in 12/2000: 2470.52
Bush is sworn in January 2001.
9/11 happens. Nasdaq at 1498.8.
9/02: Nasdaq at 1172.05
10/07: Nasdaq at 2859.12
2/08: Nasdaq at 2271.48
The collapse of the Nasdaq at the end of the Clinton administration was the beginning of what we are now experiencing. It is a small miracle that it did not happen long before now. Or, viewed another way, perhaps the powers that be should have let it happen before now. Perhaps it would have been far less devastating to many. Of course, maturity and individual responsibility do not seem to be PC anymore in our country. The name of the game is "blame the other guy".
Alexarz
Enthusiast
Blame Bush? You are kidding, right? This guy has to be the worst president ever. Well, next to Carter, that is. Do you think it is a coincidence that the price of oil has plummeted right on time for the election?? 
The two oil tycoons in the White House have made a killing on the high price of oil, along with their buddies in Saudi Arabia. McCain's only chance was to lower the price of oil at the time of the election and fix the economy. They were able to do one but damaged the other too deeply to fix it in time. Bush should spend the rest of his life in prison for what he and his cronies have done to the american people.
Back to the topic; this merger is the result of crippled american car manufacturers, which is the direct result of poor sales. Are american cars inferior? I don't think so. We americans should stop buying foreign cars and do what is best for our own people (buy american cars).
The two oil tycoons in the White House have made a killing on the high price of oil, along with their buddies in Saudi Arabia. McCain's only chance was to lower the price of oil at the time of the election and fix the economy. They were able to do one but damaged the other too deeply to fix it in time. Bush should spend the rest of his life in prison for what he and his cronies have done to the american people.
Back to the topic; this merger is the result of crippled american car manufacturers, which is the direct result of poor sales. Are american cars inferior? I don't think so. We americans should stop buying foreign cars and do what is best for our own people (buy american cars).
Getting back to the thread topic..
Looks like GM is OUT
U.S. rejects GM's call for help in a merger - International Herald Tribune
now what?
(so is Renault/Nissan)
Looks like GM is OUT
U.S. rejects GM's call for help in a merger - International Herald Tribune
now what?
(so is Renault/Nissan)
Sellshomesdrivesviper
Enthusiast
Are american cars inferior? I don't think so. We americans should stop buying foreign cars and do what is best for our own people (buy american cars).[/quote]
The stats beg to differ....
The stats beg to differ....
Sellshomesdrivesviper
Enthusiast
Blame Bush? You are kidding, right? This guy has to be the worst president ever. Well, next to Carter, that is. Do you think it is a coincidence that the price of oil has plummeted right on time for the election??
The two oil tycoons in the White House have made a killing on the high price of oil, along with their buddies in Saudi Arabia. McCain's only chance was to lower the price of oil at the time of the election and fix the economy. They were able to do one but damaged the other too deeply to fix it in time. Bush should spend the rest of his life in prison for what he and his cronies have done to the american people.
Back to the topic; this merger is the result of crippled american car manufacturers, which is the direct result of poor sales. Are american cars inferior? I don't think so. We americans should stop buying foreign cars and do what is best for our own people (buy american cars).
Canyon707
Enthusiast
Well this is my thought on American Cars. My list 2003 Dodge Ram diesel best truck I ever owned. 1998 dodge Diesel had problems dumped after lease end. 1952 Ford work truck a soild truck you could stand on the hood and roof to hang your gutters on my one story house. My 57 Plymouth my first car. I didn't know much about cars at 16 I tried to rebuild it couldn't turn the crank when I finished. A learning experience for sure. My 1958 Ford police intercepter a real sleeper. 57 Ford convertable with a 410 Edsel motor Which I lost in the riots in San Francisco's Hunters Point. My 1968 Roadrunner beyond fast in it's day cool. my 1999 Corvette still in my garage 35000 miles. My GM truck still working out of it. I was talked into a Mercedes c230 biggest piece of junk I ever owned. Had to visit the Mercedes dealer to see my car This was a real piece of s--t My 04 Viper still in love with it. So as far as I am concerned American Cars are just that All American...... Lets keep not only our cars but lest keep Stanley out of Mexico. Everything I buy either comes from Mexico or China. We need to remember that everthing made in America made by Americans puts food on our tables. I am disgusted when I go shopping for something I can't seem to find made in America. Our corporate leaders have lined there pockets at the expense of American jobs. We always must be concerned about terroists but, I think some run this economy.
I don't think we should drill for oil till there is no more oil in the mid east. We will still have our Vipers and they will have ther camels. I always try to buy is American but, its gets harder and harder. Even food, nothing like pissed on veggies from Mexico.
I don't think we should drill for oil till there is no more oil in the mid east. We will still have our Vipers and they will have ther camels. I always try to buy is American but, its gets harder and harder. Even food, nothing like pissed on veggies from Mexico.
Yesterday I saw a front license plate holder with a picture of the American flag and the words: " These colors don't run." I told the owner that I liked his "tag" but wouldn't it be better if it was on one of the Big Three cars instead of a Kia. He looked confused for a second and then said: "Your right". There are millions like him.
Hmm...I'm all for throwing my money at US autos but I feel like I'd be feeding a starved crack addict at this point. I'm not convinced lack of auto sales has been the silver bullet for the big three, certainly a factor, but not the killer or root cause for their problems. They've sold autos and continue to sell them and as they begin to produce more fuel-efficient vehicles sales will get better. The big three are bleeding money...why is that? Between Wall Street, Main Street and the Big Three none of them can keep a business above water. I'd start with that first before we tell the rest of America to throw their money at a problem that seems can't be solved with money alone.
The world wide usage of oil and refined products has gone down dramatically as a result of the worldwide negative economic phenomenon we have been witnessing. While the conspiracy theory above may seem plausible to some, and even comforting on some levels to others, if one applies a modicum of investigative technique and analysis to the assumption that the worldwide market can be manipulated in the fashion suggested, it becomes apparent that the drop in oil prices has far more to do with the chaos and reduction in demand caused by the unfolding economic crisis than the acts of a few people.
As for the U.S. manufacturers, they stood by and watched as Toyota took more and more market share. They failed to adequately respond to the threat. I hope they survive but until they wake up and learn to respond more nimbly to changing demographics and changing customer needs, the same thing will happen again.
GTSnake
Enthusiast
Well, it looks like another hurdle has been put up against this merger. Let's keep hoping that this thing gets enough road blocks put up so it won't happen.
Even if it does happen the cost of integration would far exceed any short term savings/benefits. Just think of all the infrastructure that the two companies would need to integrate! It would cost millions just to combine the two companies. They wouldn't realize any savings for another two or more years. By that time the economy could totally turn around and they would not have the capacity to take advantage of increased sales.
The only thing that is needed right now is for the government to provide some short term assistance to keep the companies afloat until things turn around. We cannot just let millions of jobs vaporize.
As far as the comparison between foregin and domestic quality we did fall behind in the '80s but have since caught up. Statistically we are still slightly behind but really not much to be significant. There are always certain cars that are statistically better or worse than the average from any OEM. However for the future of domestic manufacturing it will certainly contract somewhat but for our economy to continue to develope and grow it has to be in non-automotive areas.
Even if it does happen the cost of integration would far exceed any short term savings/benefits. Just think of all the infrastructure that the two companies would need to integrate! It would cost millions just to combine the two companies. They wouldn't realize any savings for another two or more years. By that time the economy could totally turn around and they would not have the capacity to take advantage of increased sales.
The only thing that is needed right now is for the government to provide some short term assistance to keep the companies afloat until things turn around. We cannot just let millions of jobs vaporize.
As far as the comparison between foregin and domestic quality we did fall behind in the '80s but have since caught up. Statistically we are still slightly behind but really not much to be significant. There are always certain cars that are statistically better or worse than the average from any OEM. However for the future of domestic manufacturing it will certainly contract somewhat but for our economy to continue to develope and grow it has to be in non-automotive areas.
Sellshomesdrivesviper
Enthusiast
As far as the comparison between foregin and domestic quality we did fall behind in the '80s but have since caught up. Statistically we are still slightly behind but really not much to be significant. There are always certain cars that are statistically better or worse than the average from any OEM. However for the future of domestic manufacturing it will certainly contract somewhat but for our economy to continue to develope and grow it has to be in non-automotive areas.[/quote]
I must UNFORTUNATELY disagree, the foreign named, foreign born or foreign built are still at the top of the list and the domestics typically at the bottom of the same list.
What list, every list .....quality....reliability....cost of ownership, etc., etc.....
I must UNFORTUNATELY disagree, the foreign named, foreign born or foreign built are still at the top of the list and the domestics typically at the bottom of the same list.
What list, every list .....quality....reliability....cost of ownership, etc., etc.....
GTSnake
Enthusiast
I think we're saying the same thing. Yes, they are statistically better but domestic OEM's have improved to the point that they are only slightly behind the top foreign OE's. Keep in mind there are plenty of foreign OEM's that are much worse than domestics.
So, I "gotta" weigh in here.....it is not as far fetched an idea for the VCA (one of the more powerful car clubs) to step in and own OR be part owner of Viper. Having spent most of my career on the corporate side, the details mentioned above are key. Moreso, WHO in the VCA is capable and willing to play key management roles - President VP, Comptroller, etc....not just car related posts like head of development and the like.
If there is any possibility of this happening, then these posts need to take a more serious turn, one which discusses the likelihood of members (majority) kicking in and how much, how the company would be structured and so on. For example, (just an example), the board could be made up of a combination of Current Viper execs and VCA Regional Presidents. One can not be sure that all current Viper related management would stay on. It is critical to have management personnel in place that KNOW the auto manufacturing business, as it is imperative that manufacturing efficiencies be found once Viper is not connected to Chrysler (all hypothetical, of course).
If the VCA does not stand up and be counted here, then we have nothing to complain about when someone we don't like takes over Viper and either changes what it stands for or kills it all together.
Just one person's opinion.
Peter
If there is any possibility of this happening, then these posts need to take a more serious turn, one which discusses the likelihood of members (majority) kicking in and how much, how the company would be structured and so on. For example, (just an example), the board could be made up of a combination of Current Viper execs and VCA Regional Presidents. One can not be sure that all current Viper related management would stay on. It is critical to have management personnel in place that KNOW the auto manufacturing business, as it is imperative that manufacturing efficiencies be found once Viper is not connected to Chrysler (all hypothetical, of course).
If the VCA does not stand up and be counted here, then we have nothing to complain about when someone we don't like takes over Viper and either changes what it stands for or kills it all together.
Just one person's opinion.
Peter
I think that part of the problem is that early on Toyota, et. al. realized the importance of good service and good customer feedback. They trained all of the people in their organizations to focus on same so that evaluations like JD Power would come out as good as possible. A review of the many negative posts on this Forum alone indicates that Chrysler has a long way to go before its dealer network rises to the same level of customer satisfaction.
This is so true, just look how you are treated as a customer of Honda or Toyota, the feeling is different when you first walk in the door. I find (we own a Honda), that the service departments are far more customer focused than I've experienced with American car dealerships. I know that is a generalization, but I think it holds.
As for quality, I think American manufacturers have vastly improved the quality of their products. However, it is not the reality of their quality that is the issue, it is the "perception" of continuing poor quality that is the issue. Changing perception is very difficult and takes a long time. Winning a few JD Powers awards for "initial quality" is not going to convince anyone.
I don't think any of this applies to Viper, I never view it as a real piece of Chrysler, in mentality or product.
Peter
As for quality, I think American manufacturers have vastly improved the quality of their products. However, it is not the reality of their quality that is the issue, it is the "perception" of continuing poor quality that is the issue. Changing perception is very difficult and takes a long time. Winning a few JD Powers awards for "initial quality" is not going to convince anyone.
I don't think any of this applies to Viper, I never view it as a real piece of Chrysler, in mentality or product.
Peter
If this merge takes place it will be also the largest downscaling operation in the modern history.
Those two companies have way too much dealers, manufacturing capacities, modeles and administrative employees.
It is like a duel, only one company will stand at the end.
In my opinion, Viper, RAM and Jeep have good chances to survive because of their image and not the technology. Sorry to say but everything else at Chrysler is ready for the bin. They are light years behind in tech developpement.
GM can also apply the same prescription.
Both giants are outdated.
Those two companies have way too much dealers, manufacturing capacities, modeles and administrative employees.
It is like a duel, only one company will stand at the end.
In my opinion, Viper, RAM and Jeep have good chances to survive because of their image and not the technology. Sorry to say but everything else at Chrysler is ready for the bin. They are light years behind in tech developpement.
GM can also apply the same prescription.
Both giants are outdated.
slaughterj
Enthusiast
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From the Saleen plant tour, it was described that Saleen himself was no longer affiliated with the company, so "he" wouldn't be involved or allowing anything.
Canyon707
Enthusiast
I was told that the reason diesol was so expensive was it had to be refined to a higher level that 91 octane. It sold here in Calif for 5.50 a gal about .80 cents more than 91 0ctane. So now the price is just over the cost of regular gas 87 octane. below unleaded and way below 91 octane. So who is f---ing who here? Lies amd more lies. No point in asking for the truth. You won't find it within an oil company.
My guess would be that with the reduction in demand for gasoline refineries have changed their allocation to produce more diesel fuel. And, at the same time, the demand for diesel fuel is probably also down. Far fewer goods are being shipped from manufacturers.
One other point. Many who were bidding oil up in order to lock in a price for the future for fear that the price would go even higher were borrowing to do so. When credit dried up, so did this strategy. In some ways, it was like the real estate bubble except oil can be used. Many houses and other types of real estate are just sitting there empty doing nothing except sucking cash flow from their owners.
Canyon707
Enthusiast
I was under the impression that diesel was produced from the cracking process the higher octane at the top and the diesle at the bottom or near the bottom I heard that there is one lower grade fuel that needs to be preheated to flow. Mostly used on ships.
I am not sure that you can produce more or less in the refining process but, maybe someone can add some input to this. Diesel today down from $5.50 to 2.90 today. I do remember Chevron 102 octane at .35 Save American oil until the rest of the world is empty.
Mopar Boy
Enthusiast
I will try to answer the diesel question as best as I can.
Diesel, prior to the early 90's (I believe it was around 92) was a very low grade fuel. Reffered to as bunker crude, ship diesel, it was all kinda the same. Unrefined.
In the early 90's the government mandated Low Sulfer Diesel (LSD). This diesel was slightly more refined (meaning less sulfer) but it help cut back soot and particle emitions. Prior to this date, diesel had unlimited sulfer so to speak. With the new standard, diesel had to have less than 500 Parts Per Million (ppm) of sulfer.
Fast forward to 2006. With the new standards of "clean diesels" requiring EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) and DPF's (diesel particle filters - like a dryer lint trap to catches soot particles) the 500 PPM standard was no longer working. As sulfer makes soot out the tailpipe, they wanted to eliminate it. As of 2006 they introduced ULSD (Ultra low sulfer diesel) for all on road vehicles. By having ultra low sulfer there was less soot and the DPF's would have less soot to burn off.
Here is the catch. To make ULSD, they have to refine is so much (more than gas) that it became very expensive. The other issue is that the sulfer in the diesel fuel actaually works as a lubricant. By now having removed it, injection pumps and injectors were failing due to lack of lubrication. Back to the drawing boards. They found that they now needed to add detergents and lubricants to the fuel to replace the filtered out sulfer, again adding cost as they now needed to mix up the diesel in batches. This is why the diesel lubricant market has become so popular as the older trucks are not designed to run on this fuel even. Even though it is supposedly the same, those who know their vehicles will claim differnt. They were designed for high sulfer diesel.
I hope this makes some sense.
Robert
detergents
Diesel, prior to the early 90's (I believe it was around 92) was a very low grade fuel. Reffered to as bunker crude, ship diesel, it was all kinda the same. Unrefined.
In the early 90's the government mandated Low Sulfer Diesel (LSD). This diesel was slightly more refined (meaning less sulfer) but it help cut back soot and particle emitions. Prior to this date, diesel had unlimited sulfer so to speak. With the new standard, diesel had to have less than 500 Parts Per Million (ppm) of sulfer.
Fast forward to 2006. With the new standards of "clean diesels" requiring EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) and DPF's (diesel particle filters - like a dryer lint trap to catches soot particles) the 500 PPM standard was no longer working. As sulfer makes soot out the tailpipe, they wanted to eliminate it. As of 2006 they introduced ULSD (Ultra low sulfer diesel) for all on road vehicles. By having ultra low sulfer there was less soot and the DPF's would have less soot to burn off.
Here is the catch. To make ULSD, they have to refine is so much (more than gas) that it became very expensive. The other issue is that the sulfer in the diesel fuel actaually works as a lubricant. By now having removed it, injection pumps and injectors were failing due to lack of lubrication. Back to the drawing boards. They found that they now needed to add detergents and lubricants to the fuel to replace the filtered out sulfer, again adding cost as they now needed to mix up the diesel in batches. This is why the diesel lubricant market has become so popular as the older trucks are not designed to run on this fuel even. Even though it is supposedly the same, those who know their vehicles will claim differnt. They were designed for high sulfer diesel.
I hope this makes some sense.
Robert
detergents
I will try to answer the diesel question as best as I can.
Diesel, prior to the early 90's (I believe it was around 92) was a very low grade fuel. Reffered to as bunker crude, ship diesel, it was all kinda the same. Unrefined.
In the early 90's the government mandated Low Sulfer Diesel (LSD). This diesel was slightly more refined (meaning less sulfer) but it help cut back soot and particle emitions. Prior to this date, diesel had unlimited sulfer so to speak. With the new standard, diesel had to have less than 500 Parts Per Million (ppm) of sulfer.
Fast forward to 2006. With the new standards of "clean diesels" requiring EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) and DPF's (diesel particle filters - like a dryer lint trap to catches soot particles) the 500 PPM standard was no longer working. As sulfer makes soot out the tailpipe, they wanted to eliminate it. As of 2006 they introduced ULSD (Ultra low sulfer diesel) for all on road vehicles. By having ultra low sulfer there was less soot and the DPF's would have less soot to burn off.
Here is the catch. To make ULSD, they have to refine is so much (more than gas) that it became very expensive. The other issue is that the sulfer in the diesel fuel actaually works as a lubricant. By now having removed it, injection pumps and injectors were failing due to lack of lubrication. Back to the drawing boards. They found that they now needed to add detergents and lubricants to the fuel to replace the filtered out sulfer, again adding cost as they now needed to mix up the diesel in batches. This is why the diesel lubricant market has become so popular as the older trucks are not designed to run on this fuel even. Even though it is supposedly the same, those who know their vehicles will claim differnt. They were designed for high sulfer diesel.
I hope this makes some sense.
Robert
detergents
Well then I guess I was lucky, I have had a diesel pickup trucks for the last 25 years GMC, Ford, and the last three Dodges! and these so called " added lubricants" never affected my fuel system! I put 50K on the GMC 6.2L diesel and had two tranny failures, the Ford had five injector pumps replaced but they were all due to leak problems. It still ran! the Dodges are by far the most reliable as I have put over 300k miles on the three combined and have yet to have a drivetrain failure of any kind!
So the moto of this reply is that I still believe we are getting screwed on diesel fuel prices!! The last thing the oil companies want is three cylinder turbo diesel little cars getting 60 miles per gallon, And this technology is here and now that auto companies can put on the street cheap. unlike hybrids that will take 7 years of use to break even on your hybrid higher purchase price.
Mopar Boy
Enthusiast
CitySnake
Enthusiast
GM Reports $2.5B 3Q Loss, Says Running Out of Cash- AP
General Motors Corp. says it lost $2.5 billion in the third quarter and warned that it could run out of cash in 2009. GM also said it has suspended talks to acquire Chrysler. The automaker also said its cash burn for the quarter accelerated to $6.9 billion due to a severe U.S. auto sales slump.
General Motors Corp. says it lost $2.5 billion in the third quarter and warned that it could run out of cash in 2009. GM also said it has suspended talks to acquire Chrysler. The automaker also said its cash burn for the quarter accelerated to $6.9 billion due to a severe U.S. auto sales slump.
Kevan
Enthusiast
I believe a couple weeks ago there was someone on this forum that said the deal wouldn't happen.
Oh yeah.
That's right.
It was ME.
Oh yeah.
That's right.
It was ME.
Sellshomesdrivesviper
Enthusiast
I would be amazed if our gov't didn't help out and soon.
Though I think Chrysler is going to be the odd man out, since it was a private investment that went bad.
A bunch of layoffs announced today, sales for Ford and GM down big, both burning through cash like there's no tomorrow. Bankruptcies looking more like a reality, than a threat.
Though I think Chrysler is going to be the odd man out, since it was a private investment that went bad.
A bunch of layoffs announced today, sales for Ford and GM down big, both burning through cash like there's no tomorrow. Bankruptcies looking more like a reality, than a threat.
I think that the jury is still out. With the election of Obama can the Democrats afford to abandon the job needs of the UAW? I doubt it. I still think we are going to see them dust off the loan guarantee technique the government used to rescue Chrysler in the 80s; tweek it a little, and do the same thing now. Whatever they do, they have to do it so that there is not a series of cascading bankruptcies throughout the auto industry. People forget that there is a national security value to having the ability to ramp up the production of military vehicles if, and when, needed.
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