Halltech Viper Twin Turbo Anyone?

Mike Brunton

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Some of the local Corvette guys have said very negative things about Halltech as a company and the intake products he sells for the C5. Take that for what it's worth - I don't know this guy and have never used his products, and I'm sure you can find folks who have bad stuff to say about ANY tuner, but this is just what I have heard - combined with the posts above, I would probably do some research on the Corvetteforum and see what the deal is - I don't know what it is either way, but buyer beware buying from ANY tuner.

Regarding TT'ing a Viper, if it were MY company looking into it, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole, and here's why...

1) I don't see all that much profit in it. Turbos are probably close to $3,000. Turbo headers made of quality stainless (are you sure you meant 371?) are going to cost a good $4,000-5,000. Probably $2,000 in materials alone. You're also going to need some sort of fuel management system - "adjusting" the stock system IS NOT GOING TO WORK, not at anything beyond very mild boost. A good FMU is going to be at least $2k or more. You're already looking at $9k-10k for parts alone, and you also need all sorts of plumbing, wastegates, oil/fuel lines, filters, brackets, and a bunch more which would eat into that $5k-6k margin REALLY quick.

2) Given #1 above, this system is obviously not using replacement pistons, heads, con-rods, rockers or crank. One of the things about a turbo is that there is a high up-front cost, but the gains are very nice if you 'do it right'. I don't see the point of spending so much on a turbo unless you plan to go all the way with a new intake, pistons, rods, and heads at the VERY LEAST, preferably a new crank too. If you do it the "right" way, you could probably easily make upwards of 1,500hp on the Viper motor - for probably about a $5k addition onto the price of the original kit. If you're not going to go for the really big power, why go turbo at all? Why not just get a supercharger for under $10k that will probably match the TT power pretty easily?

3) There are at least 6 other kits available or in development already for the Viper for turbocharging. Grants Performance, Hennessey, SVSi, Doug Levin is doing one, and John Moore is working on one and so is Lingenfelter. LPE is obviously the cadillac of this market, Hennessey has some cars built, Grants seems to be making the big power numbers, SVSi road races their cars and Levin is the unquestioned king of forced induction on Vipers and reputation and reliability. Moore seems to be taking up the "low cost" approach. So what niche is left for another competitor?

In addition, there is a major packaging problem with the Viper, and it does not have a knock sensor (not on all but the most recent, I think), so detonation is a major concern. Heat is also a big problem on these cars and I would think that the R&D required to make a TT work WELL on the Viper would make even an entry-level kit cost into the $20k+ range.

I certainly wouldn't be the first to strap one of these onto my car - especially without any sort of warranty from a company that is new to Viper tuning.

Just my .02 - no flame intended.
 

BigCarrot

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Hey Jim, you gonna sue this guy too?
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Martin D

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Jim,

I doubt you will get a commitment for your target number of 10 off this forum.

But, I hope you are successful, as we as a Viper community could use the additional options for High Performance tuning.

Regards,
 

THEMASH

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by badtbon:
That's cool. We really thought there might be more interest.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There will be, make it, and they will come.
 

Eddie N

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by badtbon:
You must be registered for see images


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

im sorry, i know thats a vette and all, but that picture gives me some serious wood!!


- eddie -
 

Mike Brunton

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Eddie,

Hint:

There are metal tubes going from turbos to big metal box....

There is a big pipe going from big metal box to throttle body.

Now, for $20, can you guess what the big metal box is????

Starts with an "I"!


Sorry, just giving you a hard time.... yes, thats an intercooler. You really need one on a TT car, especially one with stock internals.
 

Eddie N

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so the air doesnt travel through the intercooler until after its compressed?

i thought that was the radiator, since im so used to looking at viper engine bays
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.. upon second inspection it does look a little small to be a radiator!!

- eddie -
 

Russ M

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Umm,

Do you guys ever plan on changing spark plugs on that vet motor?

Is this the same haltech as that produces the fuel/ignition management units???
 

SmokinV10

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Why does it have to cost so much? These are my thoughts:

Exhaust manifold cost/retail: $1200/$2000
Turbocharger cost/retail: $800/$1200 (X2):$1600/$2400
Intercooler: $1000/$2000
injectors (10): $600/$1000
Oil/Water Lines: $300/$500
Miscellaneous (pyrosil connectors,etc): $100/$200
Blow off valves: $200/$400
Wastegates: $400/$600 x2: $800/$1200
Downpipe to exhaust: $200/$400
Heatshielding: $100/$200
ECM/piggyback computer: $500/$1000

Total (cost/retail): $6600/$10900

At that price point you could sell a ton and recover some initial development/jig/setup costs. Am I completely out of line here? Exhaust maniflolds shouldnt cost a whole lot more than a header system ( I didnt even include the downpipe), everything else is well known turbocharger system pricing with the rest of the system. Why does everyone want us to bend over and grab our ankles just because it is a viper?
 

Bill B

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Russ M,
No, Haltech is a Australian company that specializes in engine management systems.

Bill "very happy with his two Haltech managed cars" Brennan
 

Gerald

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SmokinV10:
Why does it have to cost so much? These are my thoughts:

Exhaust manifold cost/retail: $1200/$2000
Turbocharger cost/retail: $800/$1200 (X2):$1600/$2400
Intercooler: $1000/$2000
injectors (10): $600/$1000
Oil/Water Lines: $300/$500
Miscellaneous (pyrosil connectors,etc): $100/$200
Blow off valves: $200/$400
Wastegates: $400/$600 x2: $800/$1200
Downpipe to exhaust: $200/$400
Heatshielding: $100/$200
ECM/piggyback computer: $500/$1000

Total (cost/retail): $6600/$10900

At that price point you could sell a ton and recover some initial development/jig/setup costs. Am I completely out of line here? Exhaust maniflolds shouldnt cost a whole lot more than a header system ( I didnt even include the downpipe), everything else is well known turbocharger system pricing with the rest of the system. Why does everyone want us to bend over and grab our ankles just because it is a viper?


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You forgot:

Taxes (income, social security, payroll) 10-20,000 a year?

Paying mechanics that know what they are doing..PRICELESS 30k to 50k salary for 1, 2 , 3 machanics?

Profit (after all, they are entitled, aren't they?) 20-30%???

tuning process (this is where the power is made, ANYONE can
hang a turbo or s/c on a car) labor $$

Shop Rent, a tuner needs a facility right? 10k yr???

Tools, needs some serious tools too , huh? 20k?

Computer work, see tuning process, that's if they aren't using that MSD box, see labor

What if a mistake is made? Is ther enough in the price to cover it? 10% $$

Precautionary measures taken to make sure you have a bullet proof motor being done.... $$$ PRICELESS

A good business person and / or shop will have all these things figured into a package.
This is just the way I see it. And I'm sure if you add it all up, it'll exceed lots of ppls budget. That is if your happy with 60 or so RWHP, then I can see the 5-10k cost.

p.s.
YOu also forgot
Workers Comp = $$,$$$??
headers, 2,000
catback 800
Roller Rockers, 1,000
Labor for above, $500?
Warranty Issues??? $$ figured in.
I'm sure most of my figures are off.. but oh well...

Gerald
 

SmokinV10

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Gerald,
All I am saying is that Viper tuners seem to charge a LOT more than other tuners. For example when I ballparked $2000 for the exhaust manifold, that should include overhead, some welding time by a good welder/fabricator. There definitely isnt more tha a few hundred in good stainless material in there. The rest is labor and expenses to cover the jig, welding and cutting. An turbo exhaust manifold shouldnt be a whole lot more expensive than some headers. Most everyone sells their headers for about $2000. Yes this price did not include installation time. You are right. So they are going to charge $10K to install a turbocharger system on a stock engine? Come on..... that to me, is outrageous. So if you look at what I typed, i figured manufacturing costs to be about $6-7K and the rest to be profit. At $10K for the system that is about $50% profit. Now, if you add head work, roller rockers, etc, that is more, but just for a good turbocharger system, $20K is out of line.
 
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SmokinV10 -

I used to think the same way you do so I totally understand how you feel. Before I focused 100% of my time into the Viper performance industry I would NEVER even think to pay the high prices tuners were charging for simple mods (no offense, it's what I USED to think). Nitrous was very satisfying and compared to what tuners charged for the same power it was a bargain (or at least I thought so). I started to get the itch to have the power on tap, ALL the time. Thus, begun my quest for FULL TIME HORSEPOWER and well ..... you can guess the rest
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. Anyway, it cost me thousands & thousands of hours and thousands of dollars, MOST weekends including Friday and Saturday nights, Sunday mornings, most holidays and almost every ounce of free time or whatever was left of it
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.

Then came:
- Payroll
- R&D
- Rent
- Electric
- More R&D
- Phone
- Supplies
- Machines
- Insurance (remember Vipers in the shop)
- Workman's comp.
- Unemployment Ins.
- CPA services
- Warrantee
- Again R&D
- Parts

When you look from the outside in...it's price gouging.
When you look from the inside out...it's business.

Your input is VERY important to me.
I really do hope to accomplish a better pricing schedule and I'm working on it!

Doug Levin
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Mike Brunton

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Smokin,

I have a business and you would not BELIEVE the costs involved.... for example...

1) Prototype parts that end up getting thrown away 3 times before you get your production one going
2) Insurance
3) Payroll
4) Credit card fees (3% of all $$s you take in)
5) Shipping (adds up)/packing/handling materials
6) Machine tools (I just spent $18k on a new machine for my shop)
7) Taxes!
8) Salary (if you're lucky) for the owner


In addition, I would adjust your numbers above as follows...

- NO WAY IN HELL will you EVER get a suitable turbo manifold for $1,200. The 321 stainless stock ALONE is going to set you back $1,500 and that IS at wholesale prices. It takes about 60-80 hours to setup a turbo header... figure another 80 hours to make a suitable jig. Even the purge-interior welding and partial exterior tig welding will take you a solid day or two even if you are working from a jig. If you're paying your welding guy $40/hr (cheap!) you've paid him $6400 just in labor costs to setup a jig for turbo headers... then you can pay $2500 for your headers from now on (your cost - $1500 in material and $1000 for 25 hours to weld up a set).

-Good luck getting turbos for $800. PT-60s will set you back $1400... buy 10 of them at a time and you might get them for $1200 (but you gotta invest $12,000 too - NOT good for cash flow!). Figure your cost is $2,400 for a pair

-good luck getting a computer to run all this for $500. You could spend a TON of R&D money modifying the stock unit - but you'd have to sell a BUNCH to get a return selling them for $500. More likely the dealer cost will be about $1,000 for a computer

-You forgot about all the intake plumbing... aluminum tubing from turbos to BOV's, tubing from turbos to intercooler, from filters to turbos, from intercooler to throttle bodies. That tubing ain't cheap! I bet you're talking EASILY $500 wholesale cost

-You forgot the custom brackets and mounting required! The misc category won't cover it all. Add in another $500 EASY for that.

So as a tuner, your cost is $10,300. You also have $12,000 ******* in turbos as well as an inventory of your other parts you had to buy to get the good prices. You spent $6,400 to make your header jig... you probably put in a good 200-300 hours (if you're lucky) just getting this thing running! You would EASILY have $30,000-$50,000 invested if not a WHOLE lot more. And this whole time you've been paying your guys, coming to the board and being nice to the people who want it for $6k
smile.gif
.

So lets say you decide to sell them for $15k (and your cost was $10k). You would need to sell a bunch just to start making some money... and you probably need to sell 30 or 40 of 'em before you start to really make any money at it. Don't forget to set aside $$'s for the inevitable problems (parts damaged, lost, customer unsatisfied, etc, etc, etc). Better hope you don't break anything when you're testing (highly likely that you will break *something* during testing), otherwise it'll come out of your pocket! Don't forget all those hours on the dyno and all the $$s you spent on ideas that ended up not working out as well as you thought so you went a different route instead, etc, etc.

This is NOT an easy business to make money in. I can totally see why guys like Doug need to charge what they do. For the quality guys like Doug, TNT and the other "good guys" offer, I'm amazed they can make money while having such good service. Its NOT a job I would want to have!

I honestly truly don't mean this as a flame, but if it was as easy as you say, why not do it yourself and charge $10k per kit - you'll make $3,500 a piece and if you can sell 100 of them, you're made yourself $350k! I bet at anything less than $20k, you're losing TONS of money. And even at $20k, it's very hard to make it work out.
 

Mike Brunton

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Smokin,

I just re-read my post and wanted to say more
smile.gif
. First, please dont think I am coming down on you - not at all! I just want guys who do this stuff for a living to get the credit they deserve because they got a HARD job.

Here's an example from my line of work...

Got in from the office at 2am yesterday. WOke up at 9am to get to office at 10am. Met with machine shop guy at noon to talk about parts - got a quote that was kinda high. Spent about 8 hours trying to get some electronics stuff going. Worked all day without a break and just left the office about an hour ago (3am). Had to pay $1,000 rent, $300 internet line, $200 phone, $3,000 this month in electronics junk for R&D, several thousand for various other parts too
frown.gif
. And all this labor to make some parts for a motorcycle and hearing from some guys "how come it has to cost so much????" - and I don't even know if there will be any $$'s left to pay myself this month
frown.gif


Sometimes it ***** muchly
smile.gif
You gotta love what you do - guys that do this stuff well are rare.

On the header issue, check out www.burnsstainless.com. You can't use anything except 321 stainless... anything else will crack from the stress. Turbo headers will GLOW red hot! Also gotta support the turbos too! And gotta be purge tig welded for sealing and strength - and you can't bend 321 stainless, you need to cut little sections and make all your curves that way... takes hours and hour and hours. Find a guy who is good at tig welding and who knows how to purge weld 321 stainless and see if he'll do it for less than $50/hr, and see how many hours it takes him (I bet 60+)
smile.gif


Arrgh, I need to go to bed!
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Mike -

A very good post but don't stress at work ok
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.

It's not just the cost of the parts involved....
You know when you purchase an exhaust system it costs "X" amount and of course, the cost of installation. But when you fabricate custom parts and spend thousands of dollars, then throw away the parts to better your product... it hurts
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. You MUST have enough margin for expense to continue a project to provide a service.

We spend so much time building each and every car with the highest standards that I don't mind saying (because of my compulsive behavior)
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, profit for now is NOT my main objective. If it costs me two dollars for every dollar coming in, I'm more then fine with that... I set out to accomplish a goal and there is NOTHING more profitable and fulfilling than a happy customer that tells you how much he loves and enjoys your work
bounce.gif
!

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Doug
 

Gerald

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When I get my g.f. a viper when I hit that "big sale" it's going to be DLM Twin Turbo all day.. I can't imagine the numbers he'll get with that!!


Gerald
 

SmokinV10

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Doug, Mike, Gerald,
I do see where you are coming from. I do also admit that I forgot some plumbing costs (IC Piping, etc). Doug, from your standpoint I do feel that your costs are justified. The systems you produce are works of art. I would be VERY proud to prop a hood open of a DLM car. I feel that your pricing is fair.
Looking at the Vette used in this post, If that was the ONLY system produced, the $20+ Price tag would be very justified. It is a one-off system, similar to many of the systems Doug produces (only not as nice, no ground down welds, etc). However in a mass production mode, selling it as a "kit" still seems like price gauging. Maybe my prices were off for some of the equipment, however, if the tuner isnt doing the installation, and the user/owner is, then liability, installation, labor costs go down. The one time set-up costs for the welding jigs are a fixed value and will be recovered in time. I do realize that stainless headers, manifolds are always made from stainless U-bends. Archer, Duttwieler, Banks, have been making them for years. Look at a good set of GN manifolds, they do sell for about $2K. As far as turbocharger costs, 5 years ago, I was able to get T-60's or Mitsubishi TD68, or Garret TO4E's for about 800. Maybe costs have risen substantially since then...?
I see dougs point and I do see, mike's. I believe that both of you are correct when you say that pricing is in-line when it comes to the high quality installed/ turn-key product that Doug markets (especially when you consider where i may have been off on costs). However, in a user installable kit,...there may be costs to recover, but pricing it right, and dealing with some additional volume would off-set the upfront costs and seem more fair to the consumer...my .02
 

agentf1

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I have not had any personal dealing with Halltech yet but his customers on z06vette.com speak very highly of him.
 

Landspeed

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Waaay to low H.P, start talking high 900hp and people will listen. I can score 750 h.p with a $2,000. nitrous system. I will be very seriously intrested if you decide to come out with a higher h.p kit for a little bit higher or the same price you offered. If you can make the Zo6 pump out 850, you can make my car pump out at least 900!!!
 

Mike Brunton

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The thing about turbos is that they really pick up where superchargers leave off. On an SC setup, you're pretty limited by efficiency and parasitic drag on what kind of numbers you can squeeze from the unit. Turbos eliminate alot of those problems but the parts are more expensive. A turbo is similar in cost to a blower, but you need 2 of them. You need very expensive turbo headers too.

If you're already going to invest that money, whats the point of doing it on a stock motor car? You are (by definition) opening up the intake and exhaust, so might as well replace the manifold and pistons while you're at it - drop the compression, port the heads, put some nice blower pistons in there - and then crank up the boost to 22psi and run from the dyno when the car puts down 1,500hp.

The cost to add strong internals to a Viper and lower compression isn't *all* that much when you're already spending $15k - might as well spent $5k more but get double the power!
 

Baron

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A radical performance upgrade isn't just about HP. Sure, you want to gain a considerable amount of HP since you're spending quite a bit of money but you also want a setup that looks awesome. After all, part of the appeal of a viper is its outrageous curves and proportions, and a system like the OTT twin turbo seems to really go along with the extreme theme of the viper.

Sure, adding a shot of NOS is cheap relatively speaking, but it's also something that any kid with a honda can do.

If there was an OTT twin turbo setup for the viper that has the quality and good looks that I'm seeing in these Haltech photos, I would have bought it already. I also think there are many other viper owners who lurk these boards that feel the same way. You're just never going to hear from them until the product is actually available. And regarding price, $15 - 20k for a system like the one being described is totally reasonable.
 

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