Harland Sharpe 1,7 RR's vs T&D

[Vipuronr]

So not to hijack another thread, want to get everyone's opinion on whether Harland Sharpe 1.7 RR's are a good choice for a stock '98 motor with only mild mods. As mentioned in another thread, HS rockers were good for motors up to 650 hp and over this, you should go with T&D's or Jesel's.

What I'm trying to understand is , for my purposes, is the quality of Harland Sharpe RR's a good match for my motor.

Thanks

 

[ViperTony]

What are your purposes?

 

[Vipuronr]

I don't track the car, just want to make some light mods. Chuck felt you get some added (not much) hp, tracks the cam better, sounds a bit lumpier. Not planning to do more serious mods - head work, comp cam, etc. For me, its just a decent upgrade without big investment. Did not want to change gears at this point.

 

[Red Snake]

I'd get the T&Ds. I wouldn't skimp on parts for my Viper.

 

[costanZo]

I was recomended to get the Gunmetal shaft T&D roller rockers over the Jesel since the power output would be the same and I wouldn't be able to tell the difference, while saving around $600 in the process...

I saw in one of the other threads a discussion between 1.6 or 1.7 RRs. Are the Gunmetal shaft T&D roller rockers 1.7? Or do they make them in both 1.6 or 1.7? Eitherway, would the 1.7 be better then the 1.6 to go along with my stock 708 cam?

I also kinda have the same concern as Vipuronr. I'd like to know the best parts to get for my car with what I plan on doing. I don't ever plan on getting a super charger or turbo, I'd like to keep the car N/A, but get as much power out of it as possible..

Right now I have the following:
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708 Cam
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Corsa Exhaust
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RandomTech High-Flow Cats
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K+N Dual FIPK(new air box, filters, smooth tubes)
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KW Variant 2 Coilovers
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Dave's Big Brake Kit
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iForge Classic II Rims (19x11fronts / 20x13rears)
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Michelin Pilot Sport 2 Tires, 295/30/ZR19(fronts) 335/30/ZR20(rears)
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This summer, I plan on getting the following:
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American Racing Headers and High Flow Cats
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Exhaust gaskets
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Gunmetal shaft T&D roller rockers
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Thermostat with gasket
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Quality High-temp Wires
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Fidanza Aluminum Lightweight Flywheel
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Centerforce Clutch Organic
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Hydrolic Slave Cylinder
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Power Steering Pulley
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Power Steering Bracket
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SCT Handheld with 3 Different Tunes
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I figured next year or the year after I could do a more aggressive cam with heads after I have all of this stuff above installed in my car and basically be done modding, since I don't really see much other stuff I can do to add performance to my Viper, being a N/A car. I was told I could do throttlebodies, but it would cost around $700 and possibly only see around 5-10rwhp gain. So probably not worth it right? I'm hoping in the end to be close to 600rwhp, that is if I do decide to do heads with a newer more aggressive cam. If I don't get heads and a more aggressive cam, then I hope to at least be around 500-520rwhp in the end.

**So do all the mods I have listed above seem sufficient as some of the best stuff to buy to see the most performance out of my car remaining N/A??


All feedback is appreciated.... thanks!

 

[KNG SNKE]

Harland Sharps fit easily under the valve covers. If I am not mistaken the T&D's require modifying the sheet metal under the covers.

As far as HP wise there are a lot of Roe setups pushing 700whp running Harland Sharps. I would say if your not going over 700whp your just fine with them.

 

[Vipuronr]

KNG, kinda my thought as well. If they are good enough for Sean to use on his cars, wouldn't they be good enough for my car?

I know some think T&D's, but I want to maximize my mod dollars, so I don't want to over spend for T&D's when the Harland Sharpes will do just fine.

My motor currently:
- Roe smooth tubes
- S&B hi-flow air filters
- Muffler delete
- Roe hi-flow cats (next week)

Not sure what I will do after that!

Thanks.

 

[plumcrazy]

Harland Sharps fit easily under the valve covers. If I am not mistaken the T&D's require modifying the sheet metal under the covers.

As far as HP wise there are a lot of Roe setups pushing 700whp running Harland Sharps. I would say if your not going over 700whp your just fine with them.

i agree except not all VC's need to be dinged to fit the T&D's

 

[KNG SNKE]

i agree except not all VC's need to be dinged to fit the T&D's

Just what I read. From the research I did it said the baffle inside the valve cover had to be removed to run T&D because they would hit or you would have to install a spacer. I personally have not seen them nor heard a car with them. I have never heard of a car having to modify their valve covers for the harland sharps. The T&D's are better, will handle more HP, but cost more then twice as much.

 

[costanZo]

Just what I read. From the research I did it said the baffle inside the valve cover had to be removed to run T&D because they would hit or you would have to install a spacer. I personally have not seen them nor heard a car with them. I have never heard of a car having to modify their valve covers for the harland sharps. The T&D's are better, will handle more HP, but cost more then twice as much.

So Harland Sharp Roller Rockers are like $600-$750?

I believe the Gunmetal shaft T&D roller rockers I plan on getting are about $1550 and the Jesel are like $2100.

 

[SquadX]

Since ur power plans will be minor, save and do the harlands.

I have had to mod baffle for my two sets of T&Ds in two separate vipers but liked the jesels the best but feel you need the right cam for them.

 

[KNG SNKE]

So Harland Sharp Roller Rockers are like $600-$750?

I believe the Gunmetal shaft T&D roller rockers I plan on getting are about $1550 and the Jesel are like $2100.

Yes HS can be purchased directly from HS for 550 I believe. Somewhere around there. I've done a little research on them, they are on my to do list.

 

[Vipuronr]

That' a pretty good price, I've seen them in the 600's, but honestly have not researched it yet.

Sounds like HS will be the ones.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Tagoo]

I was told that a combination of high-lift cam, high-lift rockers and modified heads (material removed) can lead to cracked mounting bosses for the rockers. Basically, the valve train places more stress on the heads. The T&D and Jetsel rockers help stabilize the valve train with an additional shaft that bolts to the head, tying stuff together.

If you haven't had material removed from your heads(porting), you are less likely to have a problem. Greg Good also told me that adding stronger pushrods (3/8" instead of 5/16") helps stabilize the valve train by eliminating the flexing that happens with stock pushrods. Lots of HS rockers out there (including on my heads/cam car). I don't hear of many failures.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Lots of HS rockers out there (including on my heads/cam car). I don't hear of many failures.

That's a good point. I don't doubt $600 rockers aren't the same quality as $2000 rockers, I've even heard HS as junk, but I've never heard of them causing a failure.

Greg Good has my heads now. I'll go with whatever he recommends.

 

[Greg Good Cylinder Heads]

This just my opinion, so salt to taste.

If a guy is not going to put a high lift cam in, and the higher pressure springs that goalong with it, the Harland Sharps are fine.

I like for my guys to use a shaft mounted rocker on a ported head and aftermarket cam and springs, whether it's Jesel or T&D. When a set of viper heads get ported, the roof of the intake ports are made thinner. The rocker mounting pad area on the Gen 2 Viper is not very beefy to start with and only gets weaker after porting.

 

[costanZo]

This just my opinion, so salt to taste.

If a guy is not going to put a high lift cam in, and the higher pressure springs that goalong with it, the Harland Sharps are fine.

I like for my guys to use a shaft mounted rocker on a ported head and aftermarket cam and springs, whether it's Jesel or T&D. When a set of viper heads get ported, the roof of the intake ports are made thinner. The rocker mounting pad area on the Gen 2 Viper is not very beefy to start with and only gets weaker after porting.

This is good to know Greg, thanks for chiming in. I'm not sure when or if I will ever get around to doing heads and a more aggressive cam, although I would love too and I'm gonna try. Either way, I will definitely hit you up when that time comes since I've heard a lot of great things about you and your business.

 

[Brian GTS]

I'm running HS on my Roe GTS and my NA RT10. ZERO problems...I'd highly recommend them. The Viper Wizard highly recommends them as well. That's all I needed to hear when making my decision.

 

[uvbnbit]

I've had them on my car for 6 yrs now. The last 3 with 6.5 Roe. Zero problems. Great mod for the moolah.

 

[Vipuronr]

Greg, I really appreciate that you added your expertise to the discussion. I agree, if I was going to do more extensive mods - head work, hi-lift cam, higher tension springs, etc. - I would certainly go for either the more expensive T&D/Jesel rockers.

But, I look at it this way, if everything is stock (heads, springs, cam), then HS rockers are an upgrade to the stock units. Additionally, the change to 1.7 ratio is also an improvement.

So, unless the consensus was that they are junk and will likely fail, I see no reason not to go with them.

As far as pricing and vendors, everyone I found that stocks them has the set selling for the mid-$600's...including Harland Sharpe themselves.

One last thing, is there a need to go with hardened pushrods or are the stock ones good with roller rockers?

Thanks to everyone...enlightening discussion!

Peter

 

[ViperTony]

Just what I read. From the research I did it said the baffle inside the valve cover had to be removed to run T&D because they would hit or you would have to install a spacer. I personally have not seen them nor heard a car with them. I have never heard of a car having to modify their valve covers for the harland sharps. The T&D's are better, will handle more HP, but cost more then twice as much.

I have them on my build. I had to adjust the VC baffle by about 1/8" to clear the rockers. All I did was grind down the baffle mounting locations and reinstalled the baffle. No biggie.

 

[uvbnbit]

Spend the extra $150 (?) or so and put the new push rods in too. my .01

 

[Vipuronr]

I don't think I will change the pushrods, unless I hear that it is necessary. I never track my car and don't plan on modding the car much more than where it is now. Motor will remain stock with the exception of the HS rr's. If I am not changing the cam or the springs, why would the pushrods need to be changed...unless they sit better in the new rocker or the change to 1.7 requires new rods.

 

[ViperTony]

Greg, what's the gain in terms of power, by installing 1.7 ration rockers on a stock engine, stock cam, stock headers?

 

[99 R/T 10]

I don't think I will change the pushrods, unless I hear that it is necessary. I never track my car and don't plan on modding the car much more than where it is now. Motor will remain stock with the exception of the HS rr's. If I am not changing the cam or the springs, why would the pushrods need to be changed...unless they sit better in the new rocker or the change to 1.7 requires new rods.

Given the change of the rockers, it would be wise to measure for the proper length pushrod and get new ones. The stock are barely adequate and new ones can be had thru summit or Jeg.com for about $120(3/8" thick too).

By going to the 1.7s, you are increasing lift of your 708 cam from .542 to about .575, giving between 10-20 RWHP. Nice mod and makes the idle sound a bit more healthy

 

[Vipuronr]

Hey Mike, how are you doing?

That was the kind of info I was looking for regarding the stock pushrods. I have no problem replacing the pushrods as long as there is a rationale for it.

 

[99 R/T 10]

Doing good, you going to Tator's Toga in May?

The biggest reason is to have a pushrod with less flex and give full lift.

 

[Vipuronr]

Good, glad to hear it!

Have my appointment with Chuck to drop car off on the 31st. Having my Roe hi-flow cats installed (Christmas gift). While I'm there, I'm going to discuss the HS rr's install and see what the deal is. He's already said it was a good upgrade for me to do.

Agree on the pushrods, so I'll add that to the mix.

Thanks again...have a great weekend...by the way, top looks great!

Peter

 

[Greg Good Cylinder Heads]

Tony, it's usually a solid 15 whp.

I'll post a Spintron graph later showing what a weak pushrod can do.

If I could fit a truck axle in there for a pushrod, I'd do it. No such thing as a valvetrain that is too stiff.

 

[Vipuronr]

Thanks Greg, that cinched it (not that I wouldn't listen to others)!