Has Dodge considered a HP boost for 2002?

[Mike Brunton]

I'm starting to think the GTS/RT10 is resting on it's laurels a bit. Since the GTS came out, the Vette came out with a coupe, then a convertible, then a hardtop, then they bumped the base power to 350hp, then they came out with the Z06@385hp, and then they are bumping that to 405 next year. The whole time we have remained at 450hp.

The existing GTS/RT10 still has a good lead over the quickest Vette - the Z06, but with the Z's lighter weight and impending 405hp boost, what is Dodge's answer?

Vipers were always faster, but harder to drive, etc. The Z06 is as plush a sports car as I've seen - and they are raising the stakes in the HP war.

So Dodge, whatcha gonna do about it?

I think we deserve a 500hp Viper in 2002. It would be easily possible with minimal motor work. Ideally it would be lighter too. The GTS isn't going to be around for too much longer until the Gen3 comes out, so why not send it out with a bang? Even the GenI Viper went to 415hp after a few years... it's been 6 model years now without any increase

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[Marv S]

Mike, I think there may be a ltd. ed. package with some performance bumps coming in 2002. Even so, the aftermarkt Daytona package is also a nice one.

 

[Kid97GTS]

There's no way Dodge would steal the thunder from their triple 500 debut in 2003 by tipping the 500 hp mark before that. I know your jibes were probably just an attempt to prod Dodge to give us a little more power

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, but come on - you and I both know the ZO6 in its current or near-future form isn't a serious challenge. I've heard the 405 number is a result of tweaking the numbers on paper rather than substantive head or block changes. And based on my dyno numbers, the 450 number Dodge puts out is way low (in fact, depending on the correction factor you go with, I'm pushing 500 at the crank with simple breathing mods). So, while I wouldn't mind having a car with the Gen II GTS body style and maybe 520 hp, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Dodge to make it.

 

[Tenney]

I'm sure the whole re-certification deal may be too costly, but Dodge still found an extra 15 ponies for a short run in '96. It'd be cool if they did something similar for the last '02. Should bring back the original blue w/white stripes scheme for the final year too, IMO. A car like this might sell quicker (being the most powerful of what will be considered the classic body style) and serve to hold coupe fans over til the gen III coupe is launched in 2075.

 

[Jim Hodel]

What we have here is a good old fashioned performance war. Remember the late 60's and early 70's? I'm actually less concerned about who the winner is, as long as there are some good battles. Also, I agree with beggar, the current Z06 is comparable to a Viper, especially on a road course.

There is a natural cycle in the way that manufacturers develop their products. Dodge was ahead for several years, and GM has finally caught up. That will only last a year until Dodge responds with the 2003 Viper (I just can't see them doing something for only one year). Of course, then GM will resopond with the C6....

Jim

 

[Kid97GTS]

Beggar: don't believe everything you read. I've seen dyno runs with both the ZO6 and GTS, and while there is some variance in 2001 ZO6 rear wheel numbers (great quality control on individual tolerances from GM), the ZO6 is still 70-90 rwhp and over 100 rwtq down on a '97 Gen II. That difference is pronounced enough that 300 lbs will not come close to making up for it. The gearing is probably more of an issue for street fights, but $1,200 and a trip to Unitrax took care of that issue.

As far as any anecdotal evidence of ZO6's taking Vipers on a roadcourse, everyone knows that is all about the driver. A certain driver we all know of cut 17 full seconds off a lap time in a GTS that another "driver" thought was down on power. Thus, we are left with raw numbers to compare, unless you want to see how the same experienced driver does in both the GTS and ZO6. No doubt the ZO6 is easier for the novice to handle, but an experienced driver in a Celica would eat that same driver's lunch - does that mean the Celica is in the same league as the ZO6?

It's o.k. if you disagree, I can see how you might, given the propaganda spewed forth in Car and Driver and other GM sponsored rags - btw if you actually want to ride in a GTS sometime, let me know when you are in SoCal and I'd be happy to oblige.

 

[Kid97GTS]

I am basing my numbers on dyno numbers I witnessed at the rear wheel (hence my reference to "rwhp" and "rwtq") - that is where I'm seeing the 100 ft/lb. difference. The numbers you must be talking about are multiplying the tq number by the gear to get an overall "thrust" or torque to the ground measurement. Run the numbers with rear wheel values and you might be surprised. When correcting for the addition of a 3.54 rear end to the Viper, it's not even close. I'm glad you researched your decision to get a ZO6 and I'm sure you'll be happy with its driving characteristics, just don't tug on Superman's cape or you may feel the pangs of buyer's remorse

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[Dale Craig]

I have both cars (actually the Z06 belongs to my wife), and I can tell you that 1st and 2nd both cars feel close but when you get into 3rd and 4th the Viper pulls much harder! The Z06 is nice but it is in no way a Viper! Dale

 

[Kid97GTS]

Let's look at lb/hp using rwhp numbers from the same dynojet for both a ZO6 and GTS (from Venom Lover's runs): ZO6 3116lb/331rwhp = 9.41 lb/hp; '97GTS 3460lb/426rwhp = 8.12 lb/hp; thus, Viper clearly has an advantage.
Looking at rwtq without applying gearing correction:
ZO6 3116/338rwtq = 9.22 lb/tq; '97GTS 3460/456rwtq = 7.59 lb/tq; an even larger advantage for the Viper. Hard to believe a 3.45 rear gear will make up the difference while maintaining traction. But hey, if you want to claim a victory over the Viper in the first two gears, I'm sure you can swap 5.10's out of a tractor and get a great seat of the pants feel

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.

Use the rear wheel numbers rather than the GM propaganda and Dodge low ball and you'll get an idea of the real world beat down that will be issued to you and any other ZO6 that wants to take magazine bench racing to the real world. I sincerely hope you got a chance to drive both the Viper and ZO6 before you placed your order - if so, great, it's a nice car to drive daily if you don't have Vipers lurking about and I hear the ZO6 even has nice cupholders; if not, hurry, there might still be time to cancel that order!

As far as running your future ZO6 against my GTS, I'm game - how many tenths do you want me to spot you?

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[Venom Lover]

Mike, you should thank your lucky stars that Dodge doesn't make a regular habbit of doing what GM does by upping performance every year. Beggar is right, the new Z will achieve its additional 20 hp through surprisingly significant mods (in my opinion). Amazing that GM would do that when they'll be coming out with the C6 a year or two thereafter. The net result is that my '01 Z06 is about to take a $5000 hit (or so) in value. This pi$$es me off, quite frankly. Oh, and GM does this almost every year to Vette owners, as I understand. Unless you don't mind massive depreciation, you basically have to sell your Vette within the first year. Kinda *****, huh? Mine is up for sale. Anyway, I say let well enough alone; we can all wait for the '03.

Geeez, how many times do we have to go over the Z06 vs. Viper thing???? How about, rather than sitting and arguing about dyno numbers, let's talk facts. My Viper runs 12.0 at 120.5 on street tires. This is very traction limited. I get another 0.3

 

[Mike Brunton]

It's not that I was trying to goad them into it - obviously one person's request doesn't make things happen at a large corporation like Dodge, however I think Dodge could easily do this.

GM made the 1996 Corvette with 330hp, up from 300 just before they came out with the 345hp C5. They made the Z06 385hp for only one year, and it will be 405 the next. If anyone doesn't think these cars are close in performance to the Viper, they are kidding themselves. They are not equal, but to say that they are not contenders is just silly. With 20hp more next year, it just brings them closer. They are within 45hp, and weigh close to 300-400lbs less, and have gearing advantages.

Why would Dodge have to recertify the motor if they wanted to add minor enhancements? Would they have to recertify if they did some minor head work perhaps? Or changed the intake and/or exhaust? They did it for the older RT/10's for only a year or two before coming out with the GenII motor... why not now?

Regarding taking the thunder from the next year 500hp model, I TOTALLY disagree. This is the 10th anniversarry for the Viper. It is the last model year of the old body style, and the new Viper is going to be a fair bit lighter. Ideally, they would make the 2002 Viper have 500hp, and then shock us all with 550 in the GenIII Viper. Or at least give us 480hp next year, and then 500 in a lighter car the following year.... send the GenII out with a bang without taking anything away from the GenIII.

 

[Mike Brunton]

Beggar,

You're BENCH RACING again! Fine, the Z06 makes more torque due to gear multiplication in 1st and 2nd. The Viper pulls a LOT longer than the Z06. As I said in that other post, there is a 13mph range where the Z06 is going to be putting more torque down to the wheels than a Viper. 13mph range. That's all. If you want to get so technical about this, then you would need to consider the intertia in the driveline, and a TON of other stuff. IT IS WAY TOO TECHNICAL, and it's NOT what the real world is like!

Beggar, what is the AVERAGE Z06 running at the track? Mid 12's on a good day? What MPH are they running? 112-114? What are the average mag tests on them? mid 12's with a best of 12.3? And 0-60 in the mid 4's with a best of 4.3 or so?

How about the Viper... they run 11's on a good day, and 12.1's are typical. MPH is usually 118-120 or so. Average mag tests are between 12.0 and 12.2 with the MPH at 118-119. 0-60 ti

 

[wiseasp]

Tuesday I had a chance to race a friend with his 2001 Z06. My car is a 2001 with approx 950 miles his has over 7,000.

1st gear I was leading about 1/2 to 1 car length, 2nd I was 3-4 car lengths then 3rd I was 5-6 car lengths at 120mph. We even tried a rolling start 30mph and 50mph. The Z06 could not catch me at all.

The Z06 is a great bang for the buck, but as they say you get what you pay for.

Needless to say my friend is going to consider trading up to the Viper.

 

[Kid97GTS]

Bench racing is so named because it is theoretical racing that takes place on a work bench usually between two guys having a couple of beers. Supra owners seem to excel at it, along with guys who've never sniffed a track.

Beggar, you are still using crank hp numbers put out by manufacturers (the usual standard for bench racing), which won't give you an accurate real world comparison. As Mike stated, the true indicator of power is trap speed, with the Viper spanking the current ZO6 handily. There is no way you can tell me that 20 extra hp at the crank will close that gap significantly. You can try to up the gearing, etc. to give yourself a better seat of the pants feel, but don't fool yourself - a 2002 ZO6 RATED at 405 crank hp with 3.45 rear end will not hang with a '97 GTS giving 300 lbs but making 425 hp AT THE REAR WHEEL with a 3.07 gear, nevermind a 3.54 gear. But, you are welcome to try, as I asked before, how many tenths or car lengths do you want me to give you?

 

[phiebert]

Is this a power argument or a drag strip argument? You can't compare one cars' "power" to another solely based on the bench stats and then put an arbitrary box around the argument by not taking into account top speed, etc.

It's a simple case of logic beggar. The Viper has more RWHP and torque. Now you could make a Pinto pull hard in a few gears by radically changing the gearing ratios, but what does that prove. It would now have a top speed of 17 mph! The Viper wasn't built for drag racing. I drag race with my Viper but it's painfully obvious that isn't what it is best at. A different 450 HP car can get a lot better drag strip times than a Viper if that is all it is geared to do. But the Viper can hit nearly 200 mph. I have trouble beating a guy I know at the drag strip. He has a Camaro specifically built for the first 1/8th mile of the strip, but his top end is probably 120 mph. What does that prove, that the Camaro is more powerful? In a mile long race I would be so far ahead of him I could stop, shut down and make coffee before he got to the finish line.

You read up on all the specs on the Vette (which is a perfectly nice car) and now you ordered one. Have you ever driven a Viper? If you hopped in a Vette and drove it hard, then stepped out and hopped in a Viper and did the same, you wouldn't have had this argument. Reality is a lot more fun and "real" than specs.

 

[TorQ Junkie]

I agree with venom lover's post. The main reason I did not get another C5 was the iminent depreciation each vette owner faces when the next model yr comes out. Just like owning a computer. I leased my first and only vette for 2 yrs and had great difficulty getting any decent price for it, even with a $30,600 buyout. As I have come to learn, Vipers get you an expected high level of performance and draw tons of attention due to limited production. I also appreciate the fact that bolt-ons have a greater impact on a Viper than C5's. My friend has ram air, headers and exhaust on a 2000 C5 and still can't break into 12's. My C5 was a great daily driver. My ACR is a special treat
that I look forward to driving whenever I can. I just can't get myself to use it as a daily driver yet.

 

[Venom Lover]

Sorry, apparently I was posting my previous note right when the server space allocation was maxed out....But I'm back on line now!

The rest of my rambling thread that didn't make it through the first time basically said this:

Regardless of a bunch of torque dyno numbers multiplied by a bunch of gear ratios for Z06 vs. GTS, the net result for me is:

Z06 on street tires: 12.8 at 111.2 mph
GTS on street tires: 12.0 at 120.5 mph

And yes, I tried as hard as I could to extract the most I could out of the Z06.

Anyone want to buy a used Z06? Only 5500 miles!!! Never been raced.

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[Jim Hodel]

The reports I have of Z06 braking performance is that single 60 to zero type stops are very good, but that they still need a pad and fluid upgrade for track use. The ABS should be an advantage over my 99 Viper (I flat spotted a tire at the Thunderhill Viper Days going into turn nine a bit too hot).

Also, I have not seen a car yet that didn't need pads and fluid for track days. My friend got his Z06 brakes so hot that the red brake calipers are now a nice shade of burnt orange, literally!

Selling your Z06 and keeping your Viper tells me what I need to know about which car you prefer. I think the new Viper is going to be a fantastic car. Hmm, maybe in a few years when the GTS version comes out....

Jim

 

[Venom Lover]

Jim,

Yeah, I agree I'll be looking for the new GTS as well. That's the long-term plan; flip the '03 RT for the '04 or '05 GTS....

I still feel like if I have to do brake upgrades on the Z06, then I might as well save my money and do them on the GTS. I was running Motul 600 at Willow Springs, and I still was having all kinds of fade and sponginess in the pedal. Don't get me wrong, the Z06 is a great car on the track and is a lot of fun. In an ideal world, I would keep the Z, but financial realities being what they are, I think it's prudent for me to sell it at this time.

 

[Venom Lover]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by beggar:
I agree. Let's screw all the dyno numbers and factory specs and just consider 1/4 mile numbers. The 12.0 is with the mods you list right? There's one guy on the Corvetteforum with a basically stock Z06 who ran 12.0 on street tires and MrViperGTS in his GTS had a race with him another day and it was very close. Also R&T, Car & Driver, and MT have a 0.4 second difference between the GTS and Z06. The Z06 might be trailing the Viper right now, but I say bring on the 2002!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I'm not sure I'd say just consider 1/4 mile numbers. Road racing times, etc., are relevant as well, and those tend to even things out a little more.

Yes, the 12.0 is with the mods, but I might add that (1) I am an average driver at best, and (2) 12.0 is very traction limited. Slicks are buying me nearly half a second right now. Yesterday I was running 12.0 at Palmdale, with 0.4-0.6 sec correction factor for density altitude. I wonder how much ET would go down with ET streets on the Z06. If ET streets bought half a second on the Z06 I'd be very surprised. The car is power/torque limited, not traction limited.

The close race MrViperGTS had with PowerShifter's Z06 involved poor shift points on MrViper's part. He admitted that he got his times down from that 12.5 to 12.0-12.1 territory by shifting a little higher later on that afternoon. Meanwhile, PowerShifter didn't do better than a 12.4 all night, as I recall.

Sure, bring on the 2002 Z06. That's exactly why I have to sell my '01 now, so I don't get screwed on the value....

 

[Mike Brunton]

Beggar,

That was me that raced Ric's Z06. You can't honestly compare single runs between us and use that as a benchmark of the 2 cars.

We have raced side by side 3 times.... 2 of them were close, one was not. It's important to note that I just started drag racing my Viper last year - and I have made *maybe* 20 passes total in this car. On the other hand, Ric has been a drag racer for YEARS and he is a VERY consistent driver. He is a lot better of a driver than me - and I think he and I both agree on that.

The first time was when I was shifting around 5500rpm. My 1/4 times were in the mid 12's shifting like this. I still beat Ric, who was powershifting the whole way. This just shows that the Viper has a lot more potential. Even driven badly, I was able to beat out a very well driven Z06.

The second time I ran a 12.3 to Ric's 12.9. We were both spinning badly - Ric had the left lane (the crappy one)...

The third time I ran a 12.60 to his 12.58. I had the "crappy lane" and I spun a LOT through 2nd and half of 3rd. Ric beat my by a few hundredths of a second. I feel it's important to acknowledge that my only loss was when I was spinning like crazy, and I still lost only by a few hundredths. Conversely, when Ric had the crappy lane, he ran a 12.9 to my 12.3.

It's important to note that in the 2nd two races, Ric was running on Nitto drag radials and I was on MXX3 street tires. How much of a difference that made, I dont know, but it does make a difference.

Now, as I said, Ric is a consistent driver. He is also a very straight up guy. If you ask him about the 12.0 time, he will tell you that he ran right after a big dragster, and the track was like glue. He will also say that it was a one-in-a-million event that he doesn't expect to repeat. It's not like he runs 12.0's. I've seen about 20 of his runs and they are virtually all 12.4's. Ric is probably the best and most consistent driver I have ever seen at the track, and one of the nicest car guys I know. His car is FAST - and he extracts maximum performance from it. You can believe that he squeezes every last ounce of performance from that car.

My runs are all over the place. From 12.1's to 12.6's. I am not consistent - but although I **** at drag racing, my times are generally better than Ric's. I am able to win most of the races we have - because my car is faster and there is enough room for error that even if I screw up, I can still win.

So, although you can point to that one race and say "This Z06 ran a 12.5 to the Vipers 12.6", the whole story is that I had him on the launch, and when I hit 2nd I started spinning bad, and he pulled away. I kept my foot in the gas, and when I hit 3rd, I spun again and he was still pulling... and I still only lost by a few hundredths. Like I said, when the roles were reversed and we had opposite lanes, I ran a 12.3 to his 12.9.

In this case, anyone who points to the numbers we have run as being statistically significant isn't really clued in to what happened. When Ric and I's mutual friend, Greg, ran my car, he ran an 11.78 on his first attempt. Who knows what he could do if he practiced. I'm sure Ric would get my car into the 11's on 90% of his runs! Saying the Z06 is equal to the Viper based on one of the 3 runs Ric and I had isn't being fair to the Viper. There is a big difference in driver skill there... I also have a broken shifter so I am being real careful when I shift, and as we know, Ric powershifts at every shift. Also, he is a lot more experienced, and on 1 of our 3 runs, I was shifting at 5500, which was not good for best performance. Still, I won 2 out of 3 against a VERY well driven Z06.

I'd say that says a lot about the closeness of the 2 cars - that I can be an inexperienced driver, who is being careful to shift slowly, and shifting at a lower RPM, and spinning, and on street tires, and beat a very well driven Z06, that is being powershifted, and is running on drag radials.

Anyone who doesn't agree can come to the track and watch!

<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Mike Brunton on May 07, 2001 at 19:05</font>

 

[Jim Hodel]

IMHO, accelleration tests are only part of what makes a car 'fast'. I'll reserve my judgement of whether a Viper is faster then a Z06 until after I have had a chance to run our 01 Z06 (due to arrive this week) on a road course, and compare it to our 99 GTS. The GTS all ready has a couple of mods (brakes and exhaust), so I'd be comparing a stock Z06 to a modified Viper. I would not expect to get the maximum performance out of either car, but at least I will have my own basis of comparison.

I have a friend who runs his Z06 at track events, and he is quite competitive with similarly prepared Vipers. He is a very skilled driver and drives in the advanced run groups. I'd like to see him attend a Viper Days event to see where he stacks up against the experienced Viper drivers. BTW, I think the Viper Days point system actually rates a Z06 equal to an ACR, higher then a GTS.

Venom, don't worry about the new 02 Z06, and depreciation of the 01. There's nothing we can do about it anyway. I plan to keep the Viper and Vette for awhile, and 5 plus years from now I don't think the market will really care about the 20 extra horsepower and stiffer springs of the 02 Z06 versus the 01. In a few years, general vehicle condition and mileage will be as important as the specific year.

By then, the C6 will be out, along with the new Vipers (and NSX's Porsche's etc) so who knows what the value of our cars will be...

Jim

 

[Venom Lover]

Jim,

As far as lap times in your Z06 vs. GTS, I'd be interested to hear your opinion. I don't have lap times on the same track to compare, since I ran my GTS at Buttonwillow and my Z06 at Willow Springs, but qualitatively, I feel the two cars handle about the same, and the GTS has a huge torque advantage. As for braking, I am extremely unimpressed with the Z06, especially given all the hype. If I have to put aftermarket pads and rotors on the Z06, I say to heck with that, I'll just mod my Viper brakes.

As for value of the Z06, I agree it won't make one iota of difference 5 years from now. The problem for me is that my "grand plan" is to sell the Z06 to buy a Chapter III Viper next year. So, my problem is a little more immediate. I think I will "play it safe" and sell the Z now rather than taking the depreciation hit in the next year.