Have the discussions on the VCA site gone to hell?

[ViperSmith]

I agree with you.

One example that exemplifies your point are some of the responses to posts made by Jack B. Jack has been and continues to be a great contributor to this site and to Viper owners in general. He has documented (extensively) his Viper experience going back many years. Be it on the strip, modifications, DIY's, technical posts backed by his direct experience he has been great for the community. However, I've seen too many responses from folks attacking his credibility and responses that are shear ignorance. I can only chuckle when I read a ignorant response to Jack regarding his mods for his GenV.

I apologize to Jack for singling him out but his Viper experience and posts here over the years has been a huge help to me and this is one example that stands out based on your observation.

Trolls ****.

Agree, as a Gen V owner, I can't wait to see what Jack does with the car.

I am a boring daily driver (Well, I drive as much as I can) that will hopefully track next year - I enjoy seeing what the "gear heads" do.

It is sad that the obvious trolls will keep those doing the cool stuff away.

 

[Bugman Jeff]

By this I mean there are numerous replies to honest and informative threads lately that end up diverting from the subject quickly (hi jacked) or attacks on peoples integrity.

The OP clearly stated what he meant by "gone to hell" in the second sentence. That portion of his post should require no further interpretation. This thread is a perfect example. What started as a civilized discussion on the best ways to get the forum back on track is now full of attacks on peoples integrity.

 

[kratedisease]

My post was intended to solicit a robust response from you. The strategy succeeded. What I suggest is that you step back and take a breath. You are the new person here. The VCA Forum culture is easy to understand and fit into. Your posts seem to suggest that you think the existing, long time members and posters should adjust to you. That is not the was any large group works. There is an existing culture in the VCA. Try observing it; learning about it; and fitting into it. That culture may involve some male subculture joking and testing but it is a culture that also allows open and strident debate on many subjects in the non car sub forums. And despite that strident debate, we all remain friends.

Thank you for your civil response.

Your response states that "There is an existing culture in the VCA". I understand.

My ONLY point and or issue that was brought up (on topic of this thread) is that Senior/veteran " long time" members who are truly very helpful on this site ( no sarcasm) are alienating new members ( enthusiasts) with their degrading and derogatory comments. Fact.

I see that many other members come to the defense of Mr. Coloviper and others because they give a lot to the VCA boards and clubs. Fact and acknowledged.

And if a member contributes greatly, does that senior member now have the right to degrade, dismiss, insult, falsely slander, or intimidate or threaten a member who opposes a post based solely in opinion or fact ?

I do not think so. And this is why I am posting.

For any forum to continue to exist, and to continue to grow, this " existing culture of culture of the VCA" surely needs to accommodate opposing opinions.

Just IGNORE, or REBUT a Post..... do not degrade, insult, or discredit the person posting. This VERY SIMPLE CONCEPT that allows so many OTHER forums to happily ATTRACT new members, which attracts new advertising, etc.

You state "Your (my)posts seem to suggest that you think the existing, long time members and posters should adjust to you"

I answer is , NO they should NEVER adjust to me. They should adjust to everyone else who has left as a result of the negative , degrading responses and personal attacks that just turn off any new people who post.

Vipperyalley.com and Viperforums.net would NEVER exist if the " existing culture of culture of the VCA" was different

REMEMBER - SIMPLE RULE:: If you see a post that you just hate, just REPLY, REBUT or IGNORE, BUT DO NOT attack or discredit the person posting it. As soon as you attack or discredit the person who posted it you have now alienated your members.

And if you (the forum) SUPPORTs contributing senior members by dissolving them of any responsibility when they feel they can freely attack a member instead of rebutting or ignoring their post , you will see this site shrink and Viperalley.com and Viperforum.net GROW.

VERY SIMPLE Lesson. Easy to learn. If you hate a post, REBUT it, REFUTE it, IGNORE it, BUT NEVER discredit or degrade the member who posted it. Focus on the actual Post and NOT on the person posting it.

I am always here to help. And thank you for your time. Always a pleasure to be a guest on this VCA forum.

And by the way, How is the weather down in Florida ? We are having a heat wave here in New York.

 

[chorps]

Yep. Straight to hell. IBTL.

 

[viper k]

iam just proud to be a american and own a viper!

 

[daytonprowler]

iam just proud to be a american and own a viper!

If you want the total Viper experience..

https://www.viperclub.org/join/

or

https://www.viperclub.org/membership/

 

[HobokenViper]

I think there is an overall lack of people reading their own posts before or after they post them. If some people would have re-read their posts once or twice before posting and thought about what they hope to accomplish with what they write, they might remove or edit their response before posting something potentially inflammatory to others on here. If some people on here re-read their posts after posting them and REALLY read them honestly, they would be embarrassed for themselves.....

It's honestly very annoying and frustrating for myself and others to read through a thread that starts out good only to be hijacked and taken over by someone either looking for trouble or someone who says something potentially rude or mean because they didn't take a step back for a moment before they posted to make sure they weren't posting absolute nonsense. Reading some of the posts and threads lately that have devolved into nonsense reminds me of childish middle school behavior. Why some people care so much to get so insulted and fire back with ever increasing anger is beyond me. Please use this forum for what it was intended for, a place to share information, get and give advice, talk about our cars and share experiences with them, and meet new friends. If you are on here to get in debates on why your Viper has a bigger pecker than someone else's, then this is not the place for you, and you are the exact cause of the toxic mess on here now. Stop caring what others think so much and enjoy the fact that you own a rare and amazing car. I thought that most of us who own Vipers didnt care what others think of us, which is why we have no problem with owning one of the loudest and baddest cars on the planet. Hell, get out and drive your Viper and get a smile on your face instead of sitting on here putzing around for endless hours arguing about nonsense that just doesn't matter worth a hill of beans!!!!! And for crying out loud, please grow up and get lives!!!!!

 

[johniew398]

Hey, that's cool how you can "ignore" a user like kratedisease. Not that new users can't have something useful to say; but, he just joined two months ago and now, well...

Back to the original topic: I love the forum, pay each year because you don't run these sites for nothing. I have normally found help on anything I've needed. I see dozens of members who post a question and, yes a minority will get on-line and try to tell the poster how dumb they are for posting the question, or chastise them for not using the search function. But, most members will try to help that person or if they know it has been discussed they will go look up the link and put the link of a previous thread on-line to help out.

 

[VIPER GTSR 91]

I think there is an overall lack of people reading their own posts before or after they post them. If some people would have re-read their posts once or twice before posting and thought about what they hope to accomplish with what they write, they might remove or edit their response before posting something potentially inflammatory to others on here. If some people on here re-read their posts after posting them and REALLY read them honestly, they would be embarrassed for themselves.....

It's honestly very annoying and frustrating for myself and others to read through a thread that starts out good only to be hijacked and taken over by someone either looking for trouble or someone who says something potentially rude or mean because they didn't take a step back for a moment before they posted to make sure they weren't posting absolute nonsense. Reading some of the posts and threads lately that have devolved into nonsense reminds me of childish middle school behavior. Why some people care so much to get so insulted and fire back with ever increasing anger is beyond me. Please use this forum for what it was intended for, a place to share information, get and give advice, talk about our cars and share experiences with them, and meet new friends. If you are on here to get in debates on why your Viper has a bigger pecker than someone else's, then this is not the place for you, and you are the exact cause of the toxic mess on here now. Stop caring what others think so much and enjoy the fact that you own a rare and amazing car. I thought that most of us who own Vipers didnt care what others think of us, which is why we have no problem with owning one of the loudest and baddest cars on the planet. Hell, get out and drive your Viper and get a smile on your face instead of sitting on here putzing around for endless hours arguing about nonsense that just doesn't matter worth a hill of beans!!!!! And for crying out loud, please grow up and get lives!!!!!

Thanks and very well stated. This is one of the best and to the point replies since my original thread went side ways. The above reply by 398 is spot on too.

 

[Bobpantax]

Good post. Question. Is someone who "putzes around" a schmeckle?

I think there is an overall lack of people reading their own posts before or after they post them. If some people would have re-read their posts once or twice before posting and thought about what they hope to accomplish with what they write, they might remove or edit their response before posting something potentially inflammatory to others on here. If some people on here re-read their posts after posting them and REALLY read them honestly, they would be embarrassed for themselves.....

It's honestly very annoying and frustrating for myself and others to read through a thread that starts out good only to be hijacked and taken over by someone either looking for trouble or someone who says something potentially rude or mean because they didn't take a step back for a moment before they posted to make sure they weren't posting absolute nonsense. Reading some of the posts and threads lately that have devolved into nonsense reminds me of childish middle school behavior. Why some people care so much to get so insulted and fire back with ever increasing anger is beyond me. Please use this forum for what it was intended for, a place to share information, get and give advice, talk about our cars and share experiences with them, and meet new friends. If you are on here to get in debates on why your Viper has a bigger pecker than someone else's, then this is not the place for you, and you are the exact cause of the toxic mess on here now. Stop caring what others think so much and enjoy the fact that you own a rare and amazing car. I thought that most of us who own Vipers didnt care what others think of us, which is why we have no problem with owning one of the loudest and baddest cars on the planet. Hell, get out and drive your Viper and get a smile on your face instead of sitting on here putzing around for endless hours arguing about nonsense that just doesn't matter worth a hill of beans!!!!! And for crying out loud, please grow up and get lives!!!!!

 

[Y2K5SRT]

As a proud VCA member for many years now as most of you know, it seems lately that many of the replies to threads have really gone down hill. By this I mean there are numerous replies to honest and informative threads lately that end up diverting from the subject quickly (hi jacked) or attacks on peoples integrity. They seem to go on back and fourth a lot lately. It also seems to come a lot from newbies or enthusiasts too. Not to count them out as we all started out in the Viper excitement at sometime, but it gets really old and almost not worth it anymore to place a thread that is either informative or to gain positive information from other owners and have all the diverting remarks that have nothing to do with the original thread. Is this just me seeing this lately or do others that have been on here for awhile see the same thing? Thanks and remember to stay on subject for this one at least.

In my very humble opinion, and not necessarily that of the club, there are three factors in play:

1. The new Viper often represents a new breed of owner as others have noted. With all those wonderful electronics comes owners more inclined to use them and less owners looking for a "bare bones" performance car they can wrench on themselves. They may know (and care) more about pairing their Bluetooth than how various fuel mixtures affect a dyno run - and there is nothing wrong with that: I have two sons myself that fall into this category. While these owners may love the horsepower and all it brings, it is only part of the new Viper's offerings. While one new owner may have seemed a bit crass when they said the Gen V is the first Viper worth owning, the reality is that for some new owners it is the first one worth owning because they have never embraced the earlier and far more raw Vipers. They may be part of the Plug-and-Play Generation, one not so much determined by age but by embracing the technology-based world as it is coming to be. Newspapers are being replaced by the internet, social groups are moving online, road atlases have been replaced with GPS, and cars are becoming portable home/offices with hands-free phones, WiFi, cameras, and so much more. This Viper is an entirely different breed, and many of the new owners reflect that. Many current owners are simply "old school".
2. Perhaps a few of these owners, as well as the numerous non-owner enthusiasts, are more accustomed to the hit-and-run feedback that anonymous posting brings. Check out YouTube and look at some of the replies on the more popular videos. Everybody has an opinion, and some of those serve no purpose other than people (generally males) marking their territories with whatever they can come up with. A 14-year-old kid can tell his buddies that he "told off a bunch of Viper owners" as though it is some badge of honor. The club can usually **** those folks out, but not always.
3. Like many other social clubs and organizations, there are always a handful of people that will try to "divide and conquer" by throwing out falsehoods in hopes they would stick. Things like people leaving the club in droves (they aren't), vendors disappearing (ditto), and the website losing visitors (not even close). I'll touch on this more in a minute, but people should really investigate the reality of what others claim, especially when the issues are so divisive. I was reading up on situations like this and learned that a certain type of person might work towards "turning one group of people against another group while proclaiming themselves to be the one true savior. Wherever they go, they create strife, argument and hatred, yet they utterly fail to see their own role in creating it." (Source: http://www.naturalnews.com/036112_sociopaths_cults_influence.html)

The website moderators work diligently to monitor these various issues and stop them whenever they can. Hi-jacking is most common and the one for which the club must be most diligent. Those affected often complain about censorship and proceed to berate these volunteers both privately and publicly. It is a difficult line to walk for those moderators, and few are able to put up with the grief they endure in order to make this a better site.

Let's face it, it all starts with you to make positive contributions and help site staff **** out the negative. Feel free to contact the web admins if you would like to help by either using the "Contact Us" link at the bottom of every page or by reporting offending posts by clicking the triangle with the exclamation point on the bottom left of the post itself:

​

Now most of the people and vendors that in the past gave help
answers and knew the facts and figures seem to have left the building why?

As far as vendors go, it seems that pretty much all but one that are still in business still post here. Chuck Tator, Dan Lesser, Dan Cragin, Mark Jorgensen, and many more often jump in to help. There is only one vendor notably absent, and that vendor brought it entirely upon itself - and continues to do so. As for individual contributors, some simply burn out and fade away. Throw in a new generation of Vipers and owners where syncing your music files may be more important than oil weights, and those "old timers" may now spend more time elsewhere - probably driving their cars.

I also earlier mentioned a suppliers name that I had a good dealing with and unbeknown to me his name is barred from this site. The messages I recieved really soured my thoughts of this whole club. Its ashame when you cannot mention a store without being chastised.

I don't think you are referring to Hennessey Performance, although for many years that company was also "off limits" on the site due to actions that forced the club to suspend its advertising and posting privileges. The company you are probably referring to was more recently suspended from advertising and posting by the club (2012). After over a decade of challenges with this vendor (far predating the current administration, VPA, etc.), the club was forced to take action. One of the practices of that vendor is to ask customers to post references on their behalf - advertising for them. With that vendor still suspended, such ads are simply not allowed - regardless of who posts them. This is not a new policy by any means and has been in place for many, many years.

I have been on the forum for five years and enjoy it to find answers about my Viper.

In that short time I notice what you are talking about. Someone posts a question because they couldn't find it using the search function or it is something new. Some of the posts then turn into attacks on people and arguments over which Generation Viper is better than the other. It must be the society we live in because I notice the same thing on some social media sites.

It is a very real concern and certainly not isolated to these forums. Watching comments on Facebook and YouTube spin out of control is fascinating and pretty disturbing for a lot of folks. It seems to be how society is evolving (or devolving) and not a reflection on Viper owners in general.

Most of my posts are out of frustration because of SRT "moving" in a different direction with the Viper then ever before. (I'm sure others feel the same?)

I FEAR several things. I am a Pisces so bear with me..... I feel the FORCE.... LOL

Okay, this will get even longer - fair warning.

I FEAR that SRT has really screwed up the launch and, burnt their most loyal customers.

It is not easy to launch a new car and a new brand simultaneously, especially with such a limited staff. High demand from dealers meant high demand from suppliers. Add in the fact that the vast majority of cars ordered by dealers were the more content-heavy GTS model vs the "bare bones" SRT and it may have put even more stress on SRT and their suppliers. With so many current Viper owners complaining that the new car might be too luxury-oriented, SRT may have predicted an 80/20 mix of the base model vs GTS. Instead of customers ordering cars to spec most of the orders appear to have been made by the dealers themselves - dealers that felt a more fully-equipped Viper would be more popular. Result? A lot of GTS models on dealer lots and high demand for all of those extra features in proportions that some suppliers may not have planned for. So when you build 150 Launch Editions you may "use up" most of the available supply of some GTS-specific part, resulting in a shortage for other customer orders. It can get quickly out of control, especially when social media sites start picking up on it. Of course this is entirely conjecture on my part.

I FEAR that SRT has targeted new customers that it can't get.

The biggest thing the Viper has to overcome to gain those new customers is past perception. There isn't a review out there on previous Vipers that talks about how comfortable the car is, how the stereo is top notch, how the heated seats work great, etc. Instead they almost always talk about the "raw" nature of the car - something that many high-end car buyers simply don't want in a $100K+ exotic car. Let's face it, the most basic Corvette was better equipped than the most decked out Viper you could buy from 1992 - 2010. As mentioned previously, many of these new buyers may not be true "car guys" as many of us know them - instead they are looking for the best overall package for their exotic car dollar. SRT must educate these potential new owners by espousing these new features and pointing out how the interior alone competes with the finest exotics in the world - something that could never be considered with the previous Viper. So instead of some print ad showing the outside of the car, or a video showing it from the outside burning rubber or tearing up a track, SRT should show the INSIDE of the car in a print ad. Videos should start with the interior and electronics (quick shots of the dash, radio, USB connections, etc.) then expand to show the upgraded leather interior and only then pull to an outside shot of the car smoking the tires or coming out of a dark fog bank with those spiffy new headlights. Maybe close with the tag "It's not your father's Viper". Right now most people probably think it is the same Viper that has always been portrayed by the media (beautiful but bare bones, uncontrollable, and uncomfortable), and that is most definitely not the case with this latest iteration.

I FEAR that SRT has pushed the price point out of the niche market the Viper filled. ( The SRT now FEELS 2nd rate to the GTS.)

In my very personal and humble opinion, this was a marketing error - not the necessarily the price, but the creation of two different models. In that same humble opinion, the car should have simply been called the Viper GTS (by SRT), with various trim packages available to deck it out as you like. I think they saw how the ACR far exceeded sales expectations over the standard SRT10 and perhaps saw this as a similar opportunity. The challenge is that the ACR is visually different and generally built for a different purpose - track vs. cruise. Mind you, many owners fell in love with the looks and didn't care about the inherent track abilities and the car sold very well as a result. Few will spot the differences between an SRT and a GTS other than the small badging on the side. Pretty much every exterior bit is available for both models, as are the different wheels. So while you have to look closely to spot the difference of these two latest models, there is absolutely no mistaking a Gen 4 ACR for any other 2003 - 2010 Viper. They didn't sell because of the name or price points, but because of the looks and what they represented (track records, etc.).

I FEAR/FEEL that SRT "Ralph" wants to push out the VCA.

We are just not seeing that. Witness Ralph himself showing up with the VCA at two very recent events, including one in Italy over Independence Day and again this past weekend with the folks in the WV/PA VCA at Carlisle. When Ralph called me a month or so ago we spoke at length about the club and what it means to Chrysler and SRT. He said, "It’s the car and the people that buy the car. I love them all. I go out of my way to visit regions, I don’t know why people think differently."

I FEAR/FEEL that SRT "Ralph" wants us to sign up to their forums/facebook and club and leave the VCA behind.

The challenge here is that some folks, especially some of the newer (not necessarily younger) generation see Facebook and Twitter as the end-all for social media right now. And it is - for those same people. However there are a LOT of potential Viper buyers that ignore it with a passion. Many are execs who simply don't have time to update their status every other minute. Others get quickly fed up with the repeated notices on their emails or phones, eventually turning them off and forgetting about it for weeks at a time.

There is no question that SRT is trying to drive buyers for all of their products to Facebook, Twitter, etc. The problem with that approach is that it brings together a large demographic that doesn't always mix well. The guy buying a used SRT4 Neon is not the same guy buying a loaded 2014 Viper GTS. Trying to provide "one size fits all" websites or even clubs simply won't work when it comes to the Viper. It has nothing to do with being some sort of elitist, but is the reality of Viper buyers. During training for new SRT dealers, here were a few facts Chrysler Academy published about Viper owners in the training materials they gave to dealers:

• Nearly all are an executive, manager or owner
• Nearly all have high household incomes (over $200K)
• 58% of Viper owners own or control a business
• More than 84% of those have business fleets that they control
• 28% of owners have 5 or more other personal vehicles (they mentioned that 46% own 4 or more)
• 60% of owners have another Dodge/ Chrysler/ Jeep® product

Now, what other Chrysler product shares those kind of demographics? Not a one. It seems counterproductive to throw them in with other SRT owners not because of any elite status, but because SRT should be targeting this buyer group specifically for all of the reasons that Chrysler itself has published above. And there is no better venue to do that than the Viper Club of America - period.

I FEAR/FEEL for SRT to grow they have to push out everything (VCA) that is associated with the old "Dodge" to start anew.[/QUOTE]

There is no question that SRT is striving to be its own brand and undoubtedly demonstrate a different approach. However some things don't change with the brand, including the VCA.

In the end I FEEL that the Viper, at least how we know it up to this point, ( A Bad A$$ no nonsense street car) is DOOMED. (poor release in still crappy economy at a high price)

The Viper is selling well as far as Chrysler/SRT is concerned - it sounds like they have sold every copy they could possibly build. To the dealers that is. So while SRT may see a rousing sales success, the dealers may feel differently as they didn't instantly jump out of their showrooms into eager owners hands, some willing to pay five-digit premiums to get them. That said, most of your tried-and-true Viper dealers like Woodhouse and Tomball sold pretty much every car they were allocated. Like the VCA, they understand the market, where to find buyers, and how to treat them.

I find it sad now that certain vendors are no longer allowed to post on the site. Yes you knew they were a vendor and you could make your own mind up whether you wished to use them or not. I am grateful for the posts from Toddy (bad Boyz Garage), Mark and Bill at Woodhouse

Hennessey has not been allowed to post for several years, while PartsRack was suspended in 2012. The club finds it sad too, however those vendors are 100% responsible for their own actions - and the results of those actions. Much as we all like to blame the cop, if you weren't speeding you wouldn't have gotten a ticket. Accusing the cop of being dirty or blind or whatever else doesn't negate the fact you were speeding.

1. Club is not the same as it was in the past. Values, and purpose are clearly different and you wonder why, just look at current structure focus and well just look up!

I can't speak for the current club leadership, but can attest to the past going back to 2007. The purpose has not changed in the slightest, however the way the club administers the back office has changed considerably. When JR Thompson Company gave the club notice that it would no longer provide management services or VIPER magazine in June of 2009, the club had no choice but to find other alternatives. It chose the best possible solution at the time and undoubtedly that too will evolve. A handful complain that the club became a "business", but the reality is that it has always been one and now simply contracts directly for many of the services rather than through JR Thompson Company. Hard to argue that the club finally having control over its own income and expenses is somehow a bad thing.

3. Allowing the infiltration of brand killing trolls to run wild as it has left such a bad taste for anyone here and new to forum. That is a lot of it.

This is something the club needs to be diligent about, as trolls should not be tolerated in my humble opinion. They bring nothing to the table other than discord.

4. Young, middle age, old has nothing to do with it. There is no heart and soul left reappears to not be. Core of founding support has been shunned and walked out. No more Grailkeeper, no more Ralph close info and posts. Riffs appear to be there from outside looking in. Sorry but something has gone awry.......I have no clue what but it is different.

That is simply not true. Herb Helbig is very active and is even on the board of Viper Parts of America. Likewise with Ralph as shown above - he has been part of the VCA at two events in as many weeks. Not sure how it could be any closer than that. The supposed "problems" seem to eminate from a small group of folks that can't substantiate any of them. They throw in some kernel of truth (Ralph didn't write an article for the magazine) and blow it up into some massive conspiracy that simply doesn't exist. Sorry, but does Ralph or any other automotive executive write an article for every issue of a car club magazine? Of course not. And yes, there will be another executive "guest writer" in an upcoming issue - we already know who and what.

5. Just not as fun as the past and now more like the bs in other car clubs which is why I stayed away from car clubs in the past. Want to fix it, go back to the way the club functioned, the values and purpose it had.

Other than the forums and now the Viper Invitationals, the national club has a fairly neutral presence from day-to-day. The "fun factor" is largely dependent on your region and its officers. In a few isolated instances those regional officers may choose to play politics for whatever reason (club donations, gifts, etc.), but that again falls to the region and not the national club. If you look very closely at where any concerns originate, you will find they are almost always from one very small group who thrive on discord.

Until the issues are dealt with head on and everything brought into the open, nothing will change. That is for anything in life. Go back in time see where it changed and why, then you will know how to correct it. People care but until the people get together to really discuss how it can be fixed, how can it be fixed?

The forum things are relatively easy in my humble opinion: Keep discussions civilized and on point, **** out personal attacks and unfounded rumors that hurt the club (or Chrysler), and keep an eye out for trolls and moderate them accordingly. As for any perceived problems with the club itself, the very first thing is to consider the source - the folks that are making up these problems to begin with. Like the forum trolls, their mission is to seed discontent and cause chaos. Not one can point to an actual problem nor offer any solutions to these purported problems.

It would be like a rabid Corvette enthusiast starting a rumor that the new Viper has a problem with the air-conditioned seats that could cause a sensor failure in the seat and then deploy the airbags at speeds over 60 MPH. Pretty soon people are freaking out about this incredibly dangerous new car that could blind you at highway speeds without notice. The Viper and SRT would look terrible with potential and current owners getting ticked that nobody will comment on it. If/when they do deny it, the Corvette guys might then say that it is just being covered up, making matters worse. One problem: The new Viper doesn't have any air conditioned seat option and so the entire thing is complete BS. But because it sounds plausible it damages the car's reputation and that of the brand itself. If people stepped back and reviewed the actual facts they would quickly realize what BS it was - BS designed to discredit the Viper and prop up the Vette. The same exact thing holds true for unfounded VCA rumors and innuendo that one small camp has originated.

As for the regionals getting full of themselves, I see it the other way around. Excluding people/business from being on the site is stupid and exclusionary. Should not have happened and people wonder why so many supporters/people have left?! It is not the VCA or the website that keep them together, but those local individuals in the club that call or email each other to do things. Even VOI, most of the participants are not online.

This analogy has been used before, but is 100% appropriate: You host a party at your home and several people attend. One person in particular is being a little obnoxious - including insulting you and your home repeatedly ("man, this place sure is a dump"), but you tolerate it as a good host often does. You may even take them aside privately and caution them about their behavior. Undaunted, the behavior continues and then gets completely out of control when they walk up to another guest and punch them in the face. You have no choice but to kick them out at the very minimum, letting them know that they are welcome back in a year after they have shown they have corrected these behaviors and won't repeat them. Pretty soon you see they and a couple of their friends started a "Fred's House *****" website and that same guest is referring to your family as thieves, Nazis, etc. Why on earth would you invite them back into your home, knowing the chaos and disrespect that always comes with them?

During my recent call with Ralph I asked him how SRT would treat a similar situation if an employee were suspended and then continued to disparage both SRT and specific employees in social media circles. He would not hire them back.

As for the statement that "so many supporters/people have left" - it's ridiculous. VCA membership went up in 2010. It went up again in 2011. And went up still yet again in 2012. 2013 is trending towards the same result - still more members. Ditto with the club website, which has grown substantially: It averaged 49,000 unique visitors in 2012 and now averages over 67,000 unique visitors - per month. In US traffic the club site ranks considerably higher than all other Viper discussion sites - combined. It also ranks higher than moparchat.com, srtforums.com, and yes - even higher than drivesrt.com. Please don't let propaganda from a disenfranchised few skew reality. It's like saying all those air conditioned seats are failing in the new Viper - it's just not happening.

Remember, there was a lot of temporary banning that became permanent of a lot of the knowledgable members on here. I won't mention names, but for those that have been around awhile, you know who I am talking about. Another key note is that a lot of long time members of the club are now only enthusiasts, I wonder why? I have had a lot of help come my way through this site, but as a club I don't feel that I have received anymore than any other car site, there are people helping others with there car issues on a lot of different sites. I think SRTs absence on here has been more than coincidental, that have strayed for a reason.

What very few suspensions that have ever taken place were based entirely on the suspended person's continued behavior. The club can't behave for them or write their posts on other forums - that is 100% up to them. And when they continue to disparage the club and its leadership, even when they know very clearly (and in writing) that their suspension depends on refraining from such posts, it makes it tough to simply excuse that behavior and let them back in. It's kinda like reviewing parole for a murderer who continues to kill people inside prison - kinda hard to say they are no longer a threat to society. It is very hard to see how anybody can blame the club for other people's continued behavior - or for not wanting that behavior inside the club.

As for SRT, what absence? They are scheduling another SRT Engineering chat soon, we are getting updated ads for the magazine, and multiple SRT employees still post here regularly. The only "absense" is what somebody is making up on their own - the reality simply doesn't reflect that.

I do try and bring more technical stuff here, as it is severely lacking compared to the GM and Ford based sites. This is mostly a result of Viper owners that don't really work on their own cars, or track their cars. Just fewer of us out there doing so, by comparison to the other brands. I've searched this site for all kinds of tech info, most of the time with no result. So, when I learn something new, I try and make a post with pics so that future owners can search and find it.

And not only is it appreciated, but it is greatly encouraged. As mentioned above, several vendors (and owners) step up with technical information as often as they can. With such a small market and owner base, you simply won't get the volume as does the Vette and Mustang. I'd be willing to bet you get even less on Ferrari and Lamborghini forums.

Take my thread on "Hey join Twitter" - more than half the posts were from long time forum regulars saying how terrible of an idea it was. Yet, numerous members have reported they have gotten fantastic results leveraging it. So, post something useful and "old timers" jump down your throat because they don't like the suggestion, even though it works - even people posting in this very thread.

This goes back to the Facebook reply and people's reluctance to jump in the same pool with everybody else. It seems it should also be something that a manufacturer avoids for things like the Viper: The complaints about your order were initially restricted to the club forums, which narrowed the audience largely to Viper owners. Once on Twitter it was available for all the world to see, including all those Neon owners that might be following SRT. Not arguing with the results, but when owners need to resort to "calling out" the manufacturer on social media sites then there is a bigger problem than deciding on which site to post first.

As far as the forum going to hell, I haven't been around long enough to notice, but I think it's not just us. I'm on a number of other forums, and there seems to be a general shift where the old guard is leaving and is being replaced by keyboard cowboys and internet tough guys who don't always think before they post. It is often(but not always) younger people who've been raised in the age of the internet that are the biggest offenders.

Agreed.

Personally I'd love to have a forum that required you to use your real name, contact info etc. That would get rid of all the BS quickly since most people have a completely different persona when on their key board versus face to face. We have a members area here where you obviously pay but for what I'm not sure anymore. If this forum was a true "club" where everybody had to pay and knew who everybody on the forum was, I'd think this place would really rock. Best way to **** out the "fluff" is charge more, make the yearly dues $200 to $250 per year (you don't have to be a Viper owner). The future of our success is exclusivity not the mediocrity that is so easily shared in todays internet world. Forums, Facebook, twitter, etc....it just gets more and more diluted with less and less real content.

As an enthusiast yourself, I am not sure how higher dues is relevant. As for real names, very few forums offer that - or enforce it. One of my favorite names that posts here is Abe Froman - you know, the Sausage King of Chicago. Probably not his real name and trying to get people to cough up a driver's license or birth certificate is pretty much impossible. That said, the registration process does require a legitimate name, address, etc. They just don't show up in public profiles. That way celebrity owners and others can post anonymously here - and they often do.

I know of a lot of people with tons of tech help that are still on the forum but will not give their helpful input as they did in the past. Not being allowed to give out complete answers (by mentioning past members/vendors) to solve somebodies tech problem just is not worth the aggravation, possible scolding, etc.

With all due respect, how in the world does a complete answer require somebody to name a past member/vendor? Not one such person exists that has a monopoly on good advice, whether it be insurance questions, tech help, etc. Indeed, many can provide great answers as the direct and original source for that information. "Want to find out about a Unitrax differential? This is the guy at Unitrax you should talk to." "Got an insurance question on totaling your car? Here is a Viper dealer that can pinpoint your value to help you settle your claim."

If I'm going to pay to be a member, I want to know who from the forum management is communicating with me or to others when posting. Sorry, "Forum Staff" does not cut it.

While I am no longer a member of "Forum Staff" (and haven't been for some time), I can tell you that having people personally attack you for enforcing forum rules *****. We have lost more than a few moderators that simply got fed up with people bashing them here or on other forums. Instead, the website staff agreed to discuss how these things are enforced as a group and make sure ALL moderators are copied so one hand knows what the other is doing. There are a couple new moderators on board that do a fantastic job here, and "exposing" them for others to attack or try to influence simply isn't good for them or the site.

I think one the main problems with the forum is its size. Take a
look at the forum home page - there are 83 different catagories.
Stopping in an looking over them all, combined with checking your
messages and classifieds (which I have always opposed not being
part of the forums) means spending HOURS on the boards. Thats
something the average owner doesnt have.

Certainly the number of forums could be consolidated somewhat, but then things get more convoluted. "Water pump issue" in the general Viper forum might get everybody reading it only to find it was for a Gen V and had nothing to do with their own car. Pretty soon people give up and stop visiting altogether. With forum traffic way up, it is hard to argue that the basic structure is still pretty effective.

I don't understand the enthusiasts title, particularly from new owners, do you now not get a 1 year free membership to the VCA? Did SRT stop that?

The club has been honoring those "COOL" memberships all the way through 2013. The SRT dealer training booklet specifically states, "The customer not only gets the car, he gets the SRT® Track Experience, entry into the Viper Club, etc."

I didn't get anything for free but everything I did get was reasonable. Also very impressed with the VCA, organization and the brand in general. The whole regional thing, the magazine, the emails and warm welcome were impressive and something I hadn't felt from other brands before.

Having said that I do thing that some, not all, prior gen guys resent newbie's in general. I found it odd to see some of these folks bad mouthing the new generation model on a viper forum in posts and I get a vibe that the direction SRT is focusing on for new breed owners insults and offends them, makes them feel their years of loyalty are moot and overlooked. If folks feel that way its unfortunate because I really think they tried to please everyone with the gen V. The base SRT for the gear heads and the cushy GTS for the new *******; seems like they tried to please everyone? Plus I'm sure the gearheads will love the new generation ACR while guys like me will trade in their V coupe for the vert when its available, and that's ok.

I don't think many people resent the car itself, but the feeling that SRT is moving away from these old school owners and no longer focusing on "those that brought them to the dance." One example is how many that did order the new car and were current owners and/or VCA members felt their orders were filled last. Likewise with folks that have gone to races and found a general SRT car corral that was quickly filled with SRT4's and 8's, with no room left over for Vipers. Ask the SoCal club how that went last year. ALMS represents high-end cars (no SUV's, pony cars, etc.) and you would think the manufacturers would want to showcase those same models in a car corral. Chevrolet does it for Corvettes - not Camaros or Malibus.

I think current owners and members welcome new members and owners with open arms. They may simply resent the perception that SRT might not be treating Viper owners in general with the same respect they were in years past. But like Facebook, Twitter etc. - it's not the car, it's the culture.

Provided a real world solution to the Enthusiasts problem. Fought hard for a few months on it without even return calls or proper consideration. Elitist attitude of some are what killed it on arrival. Sorry but vast majority of issues could have been resolved with action. I am sure this situation is like an onion with layers. As an X-Files fan, the truth is out there.

I thought your suggestion had merit, as do similar suggestions on associate members, etc. One of the challenges is that the club's insurance policy extends only to Viper owners and so if some sort of accident were to occur it could be a real problem if a non-owner or past owner were involved. Nevertheless, I think it is still worth considering myself - especially knowing how much it could enrich the club as a whole.

Use of the ignore list does not stop the posts from appearing on the thread and being read by others. One of the things that has changed is the failure by some to take into consideration the reputation of the VCA and the impact posts can have on same.

Excellent point, as always. With so many people reading these forums on a regular basis, we often forget that we have an audience. Chrysler execs, suppliers, dealers, heck - probably General Motors execs too that want to see what Viper does right and what it does wrong. There isn't a more rich environment for that information than here. Of course we also have thousands of potential new car buyers swing through here as well - not just Viper buyers either. You might be considering dropping your life's savings on a new Grand Cherokee SRT8 for your only car, but want to see how the manufacturer works with other SRT owners first. Sure, you will visit other forums as well, but how owners of the flagship car like their ownership experience can really influence those sales. There are more than a few people that have been moved to buy SRT vehicles based solely on the enthusiasm of Viper owners for their own rides.

As an old-school viper guy, my answer is No. The forums here still represent the best of VIPER. ..... As with all forums, there's tons of BS here; just sift through it to find what you want.

I agree 110%. It's just a matter of trying to keep that BS to a minimum - either as a contributor or as a moderator for the site.

This forum was the subject of conversation with a VCA member, who is held in high regard by the Forums and SRT just yesterday, at our local VCA meeting.
He is a true professional in all ways and has helped out so many people there is no way to count them. However, these are my thoughts exclusively.

We have enthusists with thousands of posts. Some really know their stuff and are very helpful to others.

Some are just disruptive and should take their toxicity to another forum. (Admittedly the problem is sometimes from a member)

Now that VCA supports itself, with assistance from vendors and individuals, a nominal fee for enthusiasts seems quite reasonable for being on the forum. If the enthusiast has a Viper, but doesn't chose to join the VCA, maybe they would have a different fee. The VCA will strive to offer more to Viper owners over time, a prime example being the VPA.

I see nothing wrong with requiring a fee that might be able to be as low as a Car Magazine subscription. Everyone wins!

I have seen several forums offer a "pay to play" hierarchy with success. For example, an annual fee that would provide them with access to exclusive content, etc. Or conversely, limit their number of posts (per day, week, month, or year) if they choose not to pay. Another thought was to bring in Google Ads, hypertext links, etc., but shown only to registered enthusiasts and guests. Paid club members (or paid forum members if it existed) would continue to see the site with the limited number of banner ads it has today. Ads and links like you see here could be for unpaid enthusiasts and visitors: http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f41/official-bright-silver-metallic-srt-thread-5143/ Some people will happily pay extra to get rid of the random ads, just like many freeware programs and apps offer a random ad-free version for a premium price.

There is no denying the the VCA page on the SRT site is gone. The once featured club for the brands "halo" car disappears without any explanation....

Maybe Ralph took some time off of the VCA because a VCA board member wrote Sergio a letter concerning Ralph and how they were unhappy with him....

Umm, NONE of the clubs are listed on the SRT site anymore - they refer to the SRT Facebook page instead. You did catch that, right? It is even mentioned in previous posts in this very thread. You must have also missed that Ralph was with two different VCA regions in the last two weeks as well. Hardly "time off", it seems he is more active with the VCA than ever before. Anybody else remember any CEO meeting with two different VCA regions in as many weeks - and on two different continents?

As for that last comment, better check back with your source as they are yanking your chain, not to mention publicly implying that Ralph did something wrong. There is no way a VCA board member would write to Chrysler about SRT without going through the club first, especially if it was supposed to somehow reflect the club's view (it's called "fiduciary responsibility"). Looking back on this thread it is pretty plain to see that people are/were worried about SRT somehow "pulling away" from Viper owners and even the VCA. Wouldn't surprise me if one or more wrote to Ralph, Sergio, or Walter P. Chrysler himself (not all owners are up to speed). Heck, everybody knows that at least one person took to Twitter to express their concerns about SRT and their new Viper purchase - which is available for all the world to see, including Sergio. Seems to me that if somebody were inclined to support Viper owners and/or the VCA by contacting Chrysler, a letter would have been the most personal and discrete. Don't you think Chrysler would agree?

 

[BlknBlu]

Thanks Chris.

Bruce

 

[ViperSmith]

This goes back to the Facebook reply and people's reluctance to jump in the same pool with everybody else. It seems it should also be something that a manufacturer avoids for things like the Viper: The complaints about your order were initially restricted to the club forums, which narrowed the audience largely to Viper owners. Once on Twitter it was available for all the world to see, including all those Neon owners that might be following SRT. Not arguing with the results, but when owners need to resort to "calling out" the manufacturer on social media sites then there is a bigger problem than deciding on which site to post first.

I in no way disagree with you. I hope SRT opens its arms up. I realize the reactions were because of how people think it should be (Which I agree we shouldn't have to run off to Twitter to get attention).

I take it for what it is and I hope others do as well.

Great feedback.

I've been highly critical of SRT over how they handled the launch. I in no way mean malice, I want SRT to do well and I want to see the Gen VI Viper hit the streets in a few years. I hope they are seeing the feedback and realizing where they have gone wrong.

 

[Coloviper]

Appreciate the reply Chris! I had all but left this discussion when it turned into complete chaos. It was clear that no matter how I responded to the attacks, it was going to continue to spin out of control further. Just wanted to come back briefly to say thanks!

 

[Y2K5SRT]

BTW, for those of you that would like to see the new Viper at play in Europe with play-by-play from Mr. Gilles himself, here you go:

http://www.drivesrt.com/live/

Start at the bottom and work your way up. (Okay, that was kind of a hijack so I apologize in advance. )

 

[Fatboy 18]

Thanks for the long post. That should clear some things up

 

[Bobpantax]

Slight hijack. As long as they had the GT3-R over there why didn't they do a Ring run and demolish the record for this class of vehicle?

 

[Johnny GTS]

YO, HOBEKEN VIPER, You said it right and true, I've seen it happen numerous times, to myself and others who are only trying to gain info, or make a friend in the club, after all we are all in this together and as Viper owners we can share are knowledge/stories, to enhance the Viper ownership experience. Some of these people are seriously miserable ******** or some kind of wanna-bees, who thrive on knocking the less knowledgable who have really made this club what it is today!

 

[VCA Forum Staff]

And that post seems like a great place to end this. Thanks to all.