If SRT is so fast than why GTS stock beats it? [Video]
- Thread starter ElDiablo Viper
- Start date
In this case the answer was lower in the thread. The SRT is higher geared due to larger rear tires and the GTS (stock as you say) had 3.55 gears. In a side by side eval, starting in the same transmission gear, the final drive gear ratio is a huge variable. Rear dhe SRT vs GTS thread for more details.
GTS Dean
Enthusiast
There is no roll bar in the GTS. What you see is something that is stuffed in the storage pouch between the seats. The $83k SRT got trounced by the $70k GTS. C'mon Ron - admit it. 
Guyver1
Enthusiast
LOL, then have the two of them hit their brakes and see who stops first...
Dean, I think I have pretty well proven that the Gen II and SRT are almost the same, both stock (no gears) if starting in the same gears and not taken to when the SRT has the advantage. If the driver does not take the SRT past 5500-5600 rpm the SRT will not win.
But if I have to admit it then yes, the Gen II is quicker than the SRT. And, of course following the vette logic, the Z06 is quicker than the Gen II. Therefor the Z06 is quicker than the SRT (by deductive reasoning).
But if I have to admit it then yes, the Gen II is quicker than the SRT. And, of course following the vette logic, the Z06 is quicker than the Gen II. Therefor the Z06 is quicker than the SRT (by deductive reasoning).
ElDiablo Viper
Enthusiast
Well I posted the details there about 3.55 However that GTS only dyoned at 417RWHP with ~450RWTQ
Y2K5SRT
Enthusiast
Given identical drivers, I simply don't see a stock Gen II beating a stock Gen III. Ever. A few things to consider:
1. Is there a bone-stock Gen II anywhere outside of a museum these days? The first thing that happens to darn near EVERY car is smooth tubes and filters. Add a couple exhaust tweaks and we are now in the same discussion category as "My modified Mustang will smoke your Viper."
2. How many SRT-10's are anything BUT stock? Not many, as there are very, very few aftermarket upgrades for them as of this writing. No tubes, no filters, no exhaust - not even gears.
3. They have to be driven differently in order to get the most from the increased power. Remember that the engine is not just a bigger displacement, but has an entirely different power band and torque curve. As Ron pointed out, you need to really push this car to the top in order to get the most out of it. As the vast majority of SRT owners are previous Viper owners, many are still shifting at the optimum Gen II point - which is too early for an SRT.
Now I don't have the luxury of owning two Vipers at one time. However, I made NUMEROUS passes with my previous GTS on the drag strip. Many of those passes were against other Vipers. And with the exception of Matthew's VERY stout '97 GTS, I did not lose to another Viper (and lost to Matthew only at VOI 6 - not at our local track). My modified GTS was pushing 436 rwhp and 483 rwtq. My SRT is "only" 453 rwhp and 503 rwtq. Is it faster? ABSOLUTELY. On the same track I ran for three years in the GTS, I beat my best time in only my second outing with the SRT-10. And that was before I saw Ron's post about shift points. Interestingly enough, I had the chance to play with a Pro-street Camaro last week (a 10-second car) and of course he beat me. But not by much. We chatted later and he said that it was the closest any Viper has ever stayed with him - and the first SRT he has raced. Of course now I am going to get some of the supercharged Vipers to go play with him. THAT will be a totally different story!
Chris
PS. And since the GTS is still probably the best-looking Viper ever made and relatively easy to modify, well...
1. Is there a bone-stock Gen II anywhere outside of a museum these days? The first thing that happens to darn near EVERY car is smooth tubes and filters. Add a couple exhaust tweaks and we are now in the same discussion category as "My modified Mustang will smoke your Viper."
2. How many SRT-10's are anything BUT stock? Not many, as there are very, very few aftermarket upgrades for them as of this writing. No tubes, no filters, no exhaust - not even gears.
3. They have to be driven differently in order to get the most from the increased power. Remember that the engine is not just a bigger displacement, but has an entirely different power band and torque curve. As Ron pointed out, you need to really push this car to the top in order to get the most out of it. As the vast majority of SRT owners are previous Viper owners, many are still shifting at the optimum Gen II point - which is too early for an SRT.
Now I don't have the luxury of owning two Vipers at one time. However, I made NUMEROUS passes with my previous GTS on the drag strip. Many of those passes were against other Vipers. And with the exception of Matthew's VERY stout '97 GTS, I did not lose to another Viper (and lost to Matthew only at VOI 6 - not at our local track). My modified GTS was pushing 436 rwhp and 483 rwtq. My SRT is "only" 453 rwhp and 503 rwtq. Is it faster? ABSOLUTELY. On the same track I ran for three years in the GTS, I beat my best time in only my second outing with the SRT-10. And that was before I saw Ron's post about shift points. Interestingly enough, I had the chance to play with a Pro-street Camaro last week (a 10-second car) and of course he beat me. But not by much. We chatted later and he said that it was the closest any Viper has ever stayed with him - and the first SRT he has raced. Of course now I am going to get some of the supercharged Vipers to go play with him. THAT will be a totally different story!
Chris
PS. And since the GTS is still probably the best-looking Viper ever made and relatively easy to modify, well...
Russ M
Enthusiast
The SRT should be a bit faster than a gen 2 since it makes a bit more power, but the gearing is what made it equal. Having tires that are 1.3 inches taller than the stock Gen 2 makes the gearing lower on the Gen 2.
I believe the major reason why many Gen 2 drivers that drove the SRT feel it is so much more capable is because of the tires. Majority of Gen 2 owners still have stock pilots, some of which are harder than asphalt. That is the reason why to some an SRT launches so much better or corners significantly better.
To date no SRT has shown huge improvement over a Gen 2 on any track 1/4 mile, auto x, road course. Even the comp coups are getting lapped by audi's/BMW's/Porsches etc. So until the SRT's show some hard data and not just some owners personal seat of the pants experience this argument is mute.
I believe the major reason why many Gen 2 drivers that drove the SRT feel it is so much more capable is because of the tires. Majority of Gen 2 owners still have stock pilots, some of which are harder than asphalt. That is the reason why to some an SRT launches so much better or corners significantly better.
To date no SRT has shown huge improvement over a Gen 2 on any track 1/4 mile, auto x, road course. Even the comp coups are getting lapped by audi's/BMW's/Porsches etc. So until the SRT's show some hard data and not just some owners personal seat of the pants experience this argument is mute.
Vic
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"m-o-o-t"
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)Y2K5SRT
Enthusiast
Well, my experience is more than seat of the pants (documented timeslips). I would also point out that many magazines have tested the SRT by now and all are clocking better times in every single category (0-60, 1/4 mile, slalom, etc.) than previous versions of the Viper. This is not to take away from the Gen II or even the Gen I, but the PUBLISHED numbers don't lie: The SRT-10 is the fastest stock Viper - as well it should be with 50 more horsepower. The only question is top speed, which I think the GTS still has an edge for now. The only magazine that did a top speed test (Motor Trend) literally ran out of track before they could max out the SRT-10.
Have they shown "huge improvement"? Besides braking, nope. But a win is a win no matter how narrow the margin.
Skip White
Enthusiast
No comparison in the two cars. As the SRT is my seventh Viper and I have logged many miles on these cars, I can tell you what I think is going on. As Ron has pointed out the SRT is very much over geared compared to the GTS with 3.55 gears in it. That 1.3 inch diameter increase was huge in the world of gear ratio's. Another reason is the SRT is probably of very low mileage and not really loosened up yet, and the trans is very slow to shift, when these cars are new. Ya really don't notice this sluggish shifting until you get in one that's got some mileage on it. I will say this much, a stock GTS feels very over geared to me, more so than the SRT, yet the SRT is the one thats very over geared, and it pulls in a way that make the car feel very long winded. This tells me the SRT is really a much faster car, if given at least an equal gearing. I will go with the 3.33's in my SRT, as this car is so strong in the torque area, that that should be perfect. I will be putting my new fully adj. shocks and coils on tomorrow. This car is to rigid. The traction on this car is awesome compared to the GTS. The suspension change is going improve traction quite a bit. I think if someone wants the SRT to run the way it should a few things should be done to the car. I'll let ya's know how mine comes out as I go.
Skip
Skip
Skip, If I can ever post a picture I will show the SRT with 3.45 gear ratio. On paper (I know ... paper) the 3.45 looks to be the best overall. Slightly more gear than a stock Gen I/II with no significant loss in top speed. In a side by side the SRT with 3.45's should blow away the Gen II.
Skip White
Enthusiast
Yes Ron that does sound perfect, but I didn't know if such is available. This car really needs something around that range. 50 extra HP can not possibly overcome this cars over gearing. As everyone loved the 3.55's in the GTS's I wonder why they don't think the SRT is starving for a lower gear. The clutch in these cars are suffering also. I did think the 3.33 is a little short, I hope to get a 3.45. Unitrax does not have anything for the car yet. They want to research out the computers's relationship to this before they sell me one.
Skip
Skip
Russ M
Enthusiast
If published numbers dont lie then the SRT is only better in braking. A gen 2 RT ran an 11.77 @ 121 I believe, a Gen 2 ran 72.8mph through the slalom, a Gen 2 did 1.01 G's on the skid pad, a Gen 2 ran 192mph top speed. I know there are many more that I am missing, but the point is magazines and seat of the pants are not the end all of results.
When an SRT comes out to a track with some comparable Gen 2's and turns a better time in anything, then we will know for sure. Till then everything else is speculation.
vipah
Enthusiast
So I guess this clip isn't considered street racing. Very interesting.
ElDiablo Viper
Enthusiast
It is but is not posted on this forum.
Skip White
Enthusiast
LIke I said, do a little work on the car, break it in, learn how to drive the car, as it is very different in nature compared to the former, play with the tire pressure,etc., and then we shall see. This car's gearing is equivlent to having around a 2.73 in the GTS. That would take approx. 150 HP increase to overcome.
Skip
Skip
Mike Brunton
Enthusiast
Cool! I didn't know it was OK to post racing videos as long as they were linked on another forum
www.v iperalley.com
www.v iperalley.com
Mike Brunton
Enthusiast
Hmmm, I smell hypocrisy. Wonder what the party line will be about these? Last I heard it was not OK to link to forums that allowed non-VCA-kosher content - but I can link to 50 forums that allow that without censorship - so why is this link censored?
http://www.vviperalley.com/
(take out the extra "V" in the start of V i p e r a l l e y and it'll work.
if someone intends to pull this post, there better be a [******] good explanation, or I'll be on the warpath.
<font color="red">Moderator note: Gosh! I am just so darn diddley sorry that I didn't take the time to go to the original link and watch the video. I guess you DO want everybody to be babysat throughout all of this. After all, you certainly didn't come to this very informative thread to HIJACK IT and cause trouble, did you? See, when somebody posts a link directly to a video with the description that includes "bikes going on the shoulder to avoid traffic" and "awesome street race", it makes it just a little harder to ignore. Likewise, even a good attorney would have difficulty suing this forum or its sponsors if there is no direct mention or direct link to a street racing video. I am pretty sure you have been around long enough to remember the constant tongue-in-cheek "closed course" posts which inundated this site with relative impunity. It is only when you start waving the "street racing" flag that it became a problem.
But, in order to satisfy your desire to see further clamping down (why, I don't know - the Alley site is doing just fine without this BS), I have edited out the direct link and shown only the link to the forum itself. I will be sure to try and follow every link and clamp down on all of them as you would like me to do. More work for me and more happy campers. I appreciate it. Oh, and I also believe that the "bad words" list here is too restrictive, including tuner names and "competing" web sites. They should be free and clear. Unfortunately, my powers are extremely limited and I have no authority to change that.
Mike, I think the world of you and you know it. But this is ridiculous. You have an EXCELLENT discussion going on with minimal BS and then a couple "alley boys" feel the need to come in and screw it up for no other reason than to be antagonistic. Nobody from this site is hijacking the threads on the Alley site as there is no reason to do so (hopefully you banned "Windbreaker" successfully). What is the purpose other than to cause trouble? Moderating this site is a big enough task without people jumping in just to be asses.
Your points, many VERY valid, were made here long ago. There is also a forum specifically for such suggestions as well as many, many VCA officers listed in the back of VIPER Magazine that I would encourage you to contact. I firmly think you SHOULD go on the warpath and I will back you up on many of your arguments. In the meantime, your warpath "collateral damage" includes ticking off a hell of a lot of people here that could care less about the board policy when you hijack a thread that is very meaningful - and for your own political agenda. Focus your anger towards those that deserve it and try to be understanding while some of us try to make this a little easier for all. Forcing a reluctant hand is not a good thing for anybody and just makes you look bad for doing so. And don't forget you also have a much less restrictive site available that is for the people and by the people. Unfortunately, the name is edited out here.
Please do me a favor and save your replies for the proper forum. I will post this entire message in the Board and Site Suggestions Forum and would encourage further discussion there. Or we can do it over at your place - just let me know. Oh, and here is the post where we can continue this discussion without interrupting this thread.</font>
http://www.vviperalley.com/
(take out the extra "V" in the start of V i p e r a l l e y and it'll work.
if someone intends to pull this post, there better be a [******] good explanation, or I'll be on the warpath.
<font color="red">Moderator note: Gosh! I am just so darn diddley sorry that I didn't take the time to go to the original link and watch the video. I guess you DO want everybody to be babysat throughout all of this. After all, you certainly didn't come to this very informative thread to HIJACK IT and cause trouble, did you? See, when somebody posts a link directly to a video with the description that includes "bikes going on the shoulder to avoid traffic" and "awesome street race", it makes it just a little harder to ignore. Likewise, even a good attorney would have difficulty suing this forum or its sponsors if there is no direct mention or direct link to a street racing video. I am pretty sure you have been around long enough to remember the constant tongue-in-cheek "closed course" posts which inundated this site with relative impunity. It is only when you start waving the "street racing" flag that it became a problem.
But, in order to satisfy your desire to see further clamping down (why, I don't know - the Alley site is doing just fine without this BS), I have edited out the direct link and shown only the link to the forum itself. I will be sure to try and follow every link and clamp down on all of them as you would like me to do. More work for me and more happy campers. I appreciate it. Oh, and I also believe that the "bad words" list here is too restrictive, including tuner names and "competing" web sites. They should be free and clear. Unfortunately, my powers are extremely limited and I have no authority to change that.
Mike, I think the world of you and you know it. But this is ridiculous. You have an EXCELLENT discussion going on with minimal BS and then a couple "alley boys" feel the need to come in and screw it up for no other reason than to be antagonistic. Nobody from this site is hijacking the threads on the Alley site as there is no reason to do so (hopefully you banned "Windbreaker" successfully). What is the purpose other than to cause trouble? Moderating this site is a big enough task without people jumping in just to be asses.
Your points, many VERY valid, were made here long ago. There is also a forum specifically for such suggestions as well as many, many VCA officers listed in the back of VIPER Magazine that I would encourage you to contact. I firmly think you SHOULD go on the warpath and I will back you up on many of your arguments. In the meantime, your warpath "collateral damage" includes ticking off a hell of a lot of people here that could care less about the board policy when you hijack a thread that is very meaningful - and for your own political agenda. Focus your anger towards those that deserve it and try to be understanding while some of us try to make this a little easier for all. Forcing a reluctant hand is not a good thing for anybody and just makes you look bad for doing so. And don't forget you also have a much less restrictive site available that is for the people and by the people. Unfortunately, the name is edited out here.
Please do me a favor and save your replies for the proper forum. I will post this entire message in the Board and Site Suggestions Forum and would encourage further discussion there. Or we can do it over at your place - just let me know. Oh, and here is the post where we can continue this discussion without interrupting this thread.</font>
Mike Brunton
Enthusiast
aww $hit, I shoudln't have said D A M N. I shudder to think of the young minds I've corrupted!
I MEANT to say there better be a gosh-darn-iddley-arn good reason for it!
I MEANT to say there better be a gosh-darn-iddley-arn good reason for it!
DEVILDOG
VCA Member North TX
LMAO!
Russ M
Enthusiast
Mike!!
Have you gotten the SRT yet?
If not I know someone who is taking delivery in the next few days and wants to resell it at the same price as he purchased it for.
We need a good driver to beat on one at the track, to see what they can really do. And you seem to be one of the best around.
Have you gotten the SRT yet?
If not I know someone who is taking delivery in the next few days and wants to resell it at the same price as he purchased it for.
We need a good driver to beat on one at the track, to see what they can really do. And you seem to be one of the best around.
BlueGTS
Viper Owner
The fact that they were both in 3rd gear is the entire story. One car has 3.55's and the other one has stock gears. Now if the SRT-10 put it in 2nd I am sure the story would have been different.
I am not sure why GTS guys cannot understand that a stock car that dynos 450rwhp will beat a GTS that only dynos 415rwhp stock. Most of the comparisons and races we see are modded GTS's which throws the whole comparison out the window.
I am not sure why GTS guys cannot understand that a stock car that dynos 450rwhp will beat a GTS that only dynos 415rwhp stock. Most of the comparisons and races we see are modded GTS's which throws the whole comparison out the window.
ElDiablo Viper
Enthusiast
I have seen some SRTs duno at 420-430...my GTS dynoed at 430 with K&N and Corsa. Why is it so hard to belive that some GenIIs can be faster than GenIII
MIne dynoed at 419/448 BEFORE the intake valves were replaced. After the repair it was about 440/471. That is pure stock. At just past 1000 miles and absolutely nothing changed except the oil (and valves of course)
420 sounds very low if there was nothing wrong (like the valves). Were those measurements on a Dynojet or Mustang dyno? I believe most numbers quoted on this forum are Dynojet. Mine are.
420 sounds very low if there was nothing wrong (like the valves). Were those measurements on a Dynojet or Mustang dyno? I believe most numbers quoted on this forum are Dynojet. Mine are.
BlueGTS
Viper Owner
You cannot talk about dyno numbers with mods as it changes everything. Stock for stock the SRT-10 is faster.
What the video shows is that a modded GTS with gears can beat a stock SRT-10 when rolling from the same gear.
What the video shows is that a modded GTS with gears can beat a stock SRT-10 when rolling from the same gear.
ElDiablo Viper
Enthusiast
So all it takes is 3.55 and 410RWHP to beat stock SRT.
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