is there a big difference in non abs cars?

[jcaspar1]

I would definately get ABS. I have a 97 GTS with StopTech fronts and have tried several pad combinations and still get lockup in the fronts too easily. I have done a few Viper Days and several other track events and my threshold braking has imporved a lot. Just the other day however, I was on the freeway doing 80 when a guy decided to change into my lane. Right front locked up in a cloud of smoke and it was only shear luck that I wasn't hit. This was with Brakeman #3 pads and fresh fluid. I love the car but the brakes are the one thing that might get me to sell it.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Jeff, not to poke at you, but Chuck 98 RT/10 will verify that having StopTechs in the front alone are still not the best braking balance. They would make nice rear brakes for a big brake setup or you could sell them, put the OEMs back on the front, and add 40mm in the rear. That would give you better braking overall and might cost next to nothing.

 

[QUICKV10]

QUOTE: "Applying the brakes gradually, or even with moderate force, till ABS is engaged will only modulate the first corner starting to lock up--not necessarily the other wheels. The other wheels could still lock up."

It's my understanding it takes about 45 lbs of pressure to get a good full activation of ABS.

On a side note, there was a rear end crash once and the guy who rear ended the other car tried to sue the manufacturer saying that if his car DIDN"T have ABs, the guy in front of him would have heard his car skidding and could have moved out of the way!! Sheesh.
~Craig

Hey it saved me and my car.6 year old pilots at 70mph slamming on the brakes on a new road surface, makes a noise hard to discribe

 

[snampro]

Hey it saved me and my car.6 year old pilots at 70mph slamming on the brakes on a new road surface, makes a noise hard to discribe

nothing personal, but someone that drives around on 6 year old tires can't be that concerned about safety.

 

[QUICKV10]

Hey it saved me and my car.6 year old pilots at 70mph slamming on the brakes on a new road surface, makes a noise hard to discribe

nothing personal, but someone that drives around on 6 year old tires can't be that concerned about safety.

LOL, well I had just bought the car shortly before that happened with only 5,800 miles. Anyway your one to talk about safety, getting a ticket at 87 in a 65

 

[snampro]

nice...

 

[jcaspar1]

Tom,
No poke taken. I have been reading up on your 40mm mod since it first came out shortly after I got the Stoptechs. If I recall, I think the calculations were such that the front/rear caliper area ratio was the same for Stoptech fronts and Stock/40 mm rears. Is the balance really that much different for the stock/40mm combination? I was hoping you would come up with a rear mod for people with stoptechs but I guess that required a proportioning valve. I definately like the additional cooling benefit of the Stoptechs as I have no problem overheating the brakes on the track even with my inexpereience. I have Porsche deflectors which might help a bit too.

P.S. Was it Chuck that was demoing your rear mod to go with Stoptech fronts? I never did hear a final verdict on it.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Jeff, Maybe you had a typo so I'll repeat this:

Stoptech front + OEM 36mm rear = OEM front + 38mm mod rear

Stoptech made the front pistons smaller (38/42 went to 36/40) while I tried going larger in the rear. Mathematically it comes out the same and performance is probably very close.

Going to

OEM front + 40mm rear

can perhaps be thought of making a similar improvement as you felt with the Stoptechs, but doing it again.

In your case, you could do the complete swap I mentioned above, or add 40mm in the rear, which would be slightly too large, I believe. But, now that Dave makes the big brake kit, he also has an adjustable proportioning valve all ready (with pre-bent lines, I think) for Viper installation, so at least that would be easy to do.

Part of the overheating goes away when the rears do more work. I have melted several plastic valve stem caps in the back when the wheel stops in the right place above the calipers after a track event.

Chuck's comments are the second to last post:

http://www4.forum.viperclub.org/showflat...hi4m0p5l9e0sd27

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Jeff, Tom's rear upgrade for Stoptech fronts puts the braking right on the edge. I like the setup but there are other things to consider. Getting the car balanced and corner weighted does wonders for braking but you need height adjustable shocks to do it.

 

[jcaspar1]

Jeff, Tom's rear upgrade for Stoptech fronts puts the braking right on the edge. I like the setup but there are other things to consider. Getting the car balanced and corner weighted does wonders for braking but you need height adjustable shocks to do it.

Chuck,
That may be part of the issue as on my last lockup it was the left front that locked. It is my understanding that it should be the right as there is less weight on the right without a passenger and with the battery on the left.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

I think that's a "good" comment, since Chuck's gone on to tweak other things.

 

[SEASNAKE]

I have driven over 50K miles on both ABS & non-ABS vipers. I locked up the brakes 3 times street driving. All below 60mph and all in emergency type situations. The last time was when my car was totaled. At least the non-abs proved (with skidmarks)to the police that I tried to stop for the car that pulled out in front of me. I bought an '01 for one major reason. ABS.

It didn't make much difference to me at the track, except that I am much more comfortable braking late and hard.

 

[jcaspar1]

That is my experience. I have gotten much better at the track and rarely lock up there and have never flat spotted a tire. In emergency situations on the street I still feel very uncomfortable.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

You've NEVER flat spotted at the track? Jeeze, my track tires were used as stop sign templates the first few years I tracked.

 

[RB185AFM]

I have stoptech's big brake kit on all four corners. My fronts still lock up pretty dam easy.

 

[Dexter]

In '93 when ABS was still a relatively new technology I had two instances where I felt ABS saved me from an accident. Both times someone pulled out in front of me from the right with me doing 45 & 60 mph on dry pavement. Both times I locked up the brakes and steered around them on the left with the brakes still mashed.

With over 20 years driving experience with non-ABS prior to that I became a convert. ABS doesn't stop quicker but it allows emergency avoidance.

The ABS is what determined the year Vipers I would consider. The styling is what narrowed it further but we're not going there.

 

[Gavin]

That is my experience. I have gotten much better at the track and rarely lock up there and have never flat spotted a tire. In emergency situations on the street I still feel very uncomfortable.

JcaSpar1 - here is the reality of your brakes. Porsche deflecters are not worth a damn at the level you are driving at now (If you are skilled enough to avoid lockup this speaks to your overall ability). Motul 600 and air ducts (requires removing the nose) are the only thing that will keep your brakes functional until your skills improve and you hit the next limit of the system. Then it is 14 inch front rotors - two part - expensive but they eliminate the cooling headache, at least until you are on race tires - that another story - but I have the solution at that level as well
You should take the advice of Tom and put the original front calipers on the rear of the car, combined with a dial to put more bias to the rear of the car. You will be surprised how much quicker the car will stop with a bunch of rear bias cranked into it. You dial in bias until you start getting rear brake lockup (tires must be at full temps) then you back it off a 1/2 turn and you are good to go - be more careful on cold tires

The larger pistoned Stoptechs were really designed for the street and therefore had a lot of front bias, obviously its rather dangerous to have rear wheel lockup before the fronts lockup, on the street - no fun on track either for that matter.
The small pistoned Stoptechs produce a more balanced braking system with the rears picking up more of the load therefore keeping the fronts cooler and the car more in balance under hard braking (less forward pitching of the car)(nosedive)These are really designed for track use but will work quite well on the street - just dial out the rear bias for street use
Go to slotted rotors as they relieve the gas that builds up between the pad and the rotor - this can feel like momentary brake fade. Stay away from drilled rotors for track use - they crack on the holes. (will run cooler though)

email me if you want more
Gavin

 

[jcaspar1]

Gavin,
Thanks for the advice. I do use Motul 600 and just flushed the system with it prior to my last track event (Thunderhill). I am running BM#3 pads all around with StopTech fronts/two piece slotted rotors and slotted rotors on the rear. Also put on rear SS lines. I had overheated the Axxis Ultimates and StopTech Club Race pads. The BM#3's worked well except when the course got red flagged just after I rounded the last turn after the back straight. My fronts were smoking after that but I was able to slowly roll the car forwared and backwards during the red flag to try and prevent pad deposits on the rotors. I think that my lack of flat spotting and overheating is more due to my being a bit chicken reagarding my brakes. My best times at T-hill are only 2:19 so I am not going really fast. I am pretty happy with the brakes on the track, it is really the street and lower speed emergency situations that worry me.

Jeff

 

[Dave's Big Brakes]

That is my experience. I have gotten much better at the track and rarely lock up there and have never flat spotted a tire. In emergency situations on the street I still feel very uncomfortable.

JcaSpar1 - here is the reality of your brakes. Porsche deflecters are not worth a damn at the level you are driving at now (If you are skilled enough to avoid lockup this speaks to your overall ability). Motul 600 and air ducts (requires removing the nose) are the only thing that will keep your brakes functional until your skills improve and you hit the next limit of the system. Then it is 14 inch front rotors - two part - expensive but they eliminate the cooling headache, at least until you are on race tires - that another story - but I have the solution at that level as well
You should take the advice of Tom and put the original front calipers on the rear of the car, combined with a dial to put more bias to the rear of the car. You will be surprised how much quicker the car will stop with a bunch of rear bias cranked into it. You dial in bias until you start getting rear brake lockup (tires must be at full temps) then you back it off a 1/2 turn and you are good to go - be more careful on cold tires

The larger pistoned Stoptechs were really designed for the street and therefore had a lot of front bias, obviously its rather dangerous to have rear wheel lockup before the fronts lockup, on the street - no fun on track either for that matter.
The small pistoned Stoptechs produce a more balanced braking system with the rears picking up more of the load therefore keeping the fronts cooler and the car more in balance under hard braking (less forward pitching of the car)(nosedive)These are really designed for track use but will work quite well on the street - just dial out the rear bias for street use
Go to slotted rotors as they relieve the gas that builds up between the pad and the rotor - this can feel like momentary brake fade. Stay away from drilled rotors for track use - they crack on the holes. (will run cooler though)

email me if you want more
Gavin

You'll need an Adjustable Proportional valve to be able to dial the car in.
Just happened to sell those Check out my web site under Big Brake Kits
Tom's is a great product, and track proven

Dave

 

[Matthew Howell 97 GTS]

I have a 97 GTS. Everyday driving, panic stop while actually trying to modulate the brake pedal. Flat spotted the front tires. Imagine the cost difference once an insurance claim is made.

I bought the parts from Paul Scharf from a 2001-2002 and installed the ABS myself. NO COMPARISON! The ABS has saved me since it was installed. I can turn the system off, but never would do that. Isn't ABS standard equipment in Europe?

 

[Gavin]

Gavin,
Thanks for the advice. I do use Motul 600 and just flushed the system with it prior to my last track event (Thunderhill). I am running BM#3 pads all around with StopTech fronts/two piece slotted rotors and slotted rotors on the rear. Also put on rear SS lines. I had overheated the Axxis Ultimates and StopTech Club Race pads. The BM#3's worked well except when the course got red flagged just after I rounded the last turn after the back straight. My fronts were smoking after that but I was able to slowly roll the car forwared and backwards during the red flag to try and prevent pad deposits on the rotors. I think that my lack of flat spotting and overheating is more due to my being a bit chicken reagarding my brakes. My best times at T-hill are only 2:19 so I am not going really fast. I am pretty happy with the brakes on the track, it is really the street and lower speed emergency situations that worry me.

Jeff

I have a different way of saying "being a bit chicken regarding my brakes" - you are "showing respect for the brakes" - good job.

You are obviously going fast enough to overheat the club pads- at 2:19 you need air to the rotors nand that means installing ducts - block them with a nurf ball when on the street

 

[viper spray]

I like to think that I can really feel every ounce of traction and can push my brakes to the limit , being a retired superbike racer who spent years racing all over N. America trying to outbrake to competition on my unlimited superbikes on slicks that last maybe 60 miles from new. For me and my 97 GTS , I can brake late and ******* Kumhos , but I tend to lock the right front on Pilots and P-Zeros all the time under hard braking on the street. My brakes are bone stock and I am making 742 RWHP and running mid 10s at 135 MPH at the strip. Last month I went straight while locked up at around 80 mph during a highway exit turn that was easy on my previous Kumhos , but Woke my butt up fast to the limits of P -Zeros on the street. It was one of those lock up and slide turns where you scrub off speed and then lift/turn into the curve while sliding the rear. It looked cool but scared my ass bad along with the dork in the F-250 at the stop sign. Next up for me is a Dave's brake kit and some braided lines , then back to the Kumhos as soon as I wear these P-zeros down some...............