Kennys Viper progress?

[CitySnake]

Well said, but I too would be furious if it were my Viper. I mean I think this isn't just poor communication, this seems to be on the face some poor customer service combined with a poorly running car. Larry's opinion and statement of facts would do be great reading to add instead of what I have read so far. For people flaming Kenny on this, sure he is pissed (I suppose) and depressed over it but what would you guys do? Sue Larry, post on here and get an attorney, get ***** (seriously), I mean what CAN you do? We could do all of these but although one might disagree on how people express themselves (I KNOW I am not perfect!), it is important to know even by what Larry has posted he contradicts little regarding the use of improper spark plugs, not putting many miles on the car, the length of time the car has been at his facility and the like. If there is a discrepency on this Larry, I think it would be in your best interest to post otherwise. If I spent $28K and had the problems posted by Kenny and it was not resolved this loing afterwards I would be livid. I mean the battery issue is no big deal and some of this stuff is petty by itself (Kenny would even agree I suppose) by combined with the serious issues of tuning and time, this is outrageous as I see it. Gary

I agree with the previous. I think most readers do, HOWEVER, why not CALL LARRY and ask him yourself? How about everyone that is interested in this matter call Larry and ask for his side of this story...no it's no longer a story, it's a SAGA.

Oue website ia an excellent reference for all that is Viper. It is an excellent reference for first hand reviews of Viper vendors and tuners. But THIS particular matter after hundreds of posts serves no one. Not even Kenny, who is getting dozens of well intended and beneficial snippets of advice from members trying to help his circumstance. But this venue and Kenny's ability to self and "community" diagnose his understanding of his Viper's issues is no longer actually helpful to either of the involved parties.

Pick up a phone, negotiate a means to an end, make a determination if that means is acceptable and DO SOMETHING proactive other than post a 2 year daily diary of your unfortunate circumstance.

Please help yourself Kenny!

 

[2MANYTOYS]

Joe Dell,

I have a tech question for you. I'm thinking of putting the Striker heads on my car with the twin turbo build that is in process. If I remember right you have these heads. Are the plugs used in Kenny's car wrong or right? Are there other choices that could be used instead? Did your car run smooth with them on? Are these heads worth the extra money? Assuming the right plugs are used is there anything else I should be on the lookout for? I don't won't to have the same problems if I go with these heads. Which version did you go with (Race)??? Should I consider Greg Good instead?


Now everyone can go back to the regularly scheduled ******** session.

 

[Joseph Dell]

PM sent!

 

[grcforce327]

Re: Kennys Viper progress? *DELETED* *DELETED*

Plum has a boyfriend named John!

 

[plumcrazy]

his name is joseph !!!

 

[2MANYTOYS]

Joe thanks again for the PM! I'll stay away from them plugs.
TTYS

 

[InjectTheVenom]

I'm in an "unfortunate circumstance" myself regarding several things, but do you see me posting on this forum about how I had to cancel my study because I could not find a place to get my work experience about a year ago and the string of "unfortunate circumstances" that happened since then, leaving me with only my high school diploma as a testament of what I have done to achieve things in life ?..
Yea that's right, due to the car market collapsing all over the place I now have to scout the recruitment offices looking for low-life jobs that ain't gonna get me anywhere.. but again, do you see me crying on here (not that I don't feel like doing just that but you get the point)?

 

[UndergroundRacing.com]

Joe Dell,

I have a tech question for you. I'm thinking of putting the Striker heads on my car with the twin turbo build that is in process. If I remember right you have these heads. Are the plugs used in Kenny's car wrong or right? Are there other choices that could be used instead? Did your car run smooth with them on? Are these heads worth the extra money? Assuming the right plugs are used is there anything else I should be on the lookout for? I don't won't to have the same problems if I go with these heads. Which version did you go with (Race)??? Should I consider Greg Good instead?


Now everyone can go back to the regularly scheduled ******** session.

Brian (2manytoys) since Joe would not post I will. Those are not at all the correct plugs or even acceptable plugs to use in that application PERIOD. We have installed and use many of these Striker Heads from JM and they have worked perfect with NO tuning issues. For those of you who are wondering about using the plugs Kenny had installed in his STRIKER heads here is something to consider. Intake ports, combustion chambers, piston tops, and spark plugs are all designed together as a system to ensure good combustion. If one of the elements of the systems is changed, then the combustion system cannot function properly. In this case, installing a 3/4" reach plug in a combustion chamber designed to use a 1" plug leaves the spark plug electrode gap sitting in the spark plug hole, whereas the combustion chamber has been designed to have the spark plug electrodes protruding into the chamber. A hole is not a good place to initiate combustion, so the initial flame propagation (if the plug is able to light the mixture at all) will be sluggish. Sluggish burn rates will have the effect of retarding the combustion phasing relative to the piston motion, and increase the variability in combustion from cycle to cycle. Increased combustion variability will manifest itself in a vehicle as an engine that idles rough, perhaps has trouble starting, and doesn't make as much power as it would otherwise be capable of making. To summarize, a spark plug with shorter reach than the cylinder head is designed for will leave the spark plug gap in a hole, combustion quality will suffer greatly, and the engine will run poorly. The easiest solution here is to simply install the correct spark plug and reap the combustion benefits. Refer to the pictures to observe what I am talking about. I would *NOT* put the correct plugs in this car and try to drive it on it's present tune. Please see pictures below as one shows the 3/4 plug that is in Kenny's Striker Heads and the other pictures show the CORRECT plug that is supposed to be in Kenny's heads!

 

[britospeed]

Do my Striker heads come with the smiley faces?

 

[plumcrazy]

UndergroundRacing.com, with those plugs give a drop in power like SRK is seeing ??? or is it more a driveability issue ?

 

[Larry Macedo]

I'm excited! Once Kenny's car is strapped down on Kevin's PFM Dyno and the iridiums are installed, we're going to witness a whole new positive displacement record.

 

[Joseph Dell]

Actually, I did post a couple of pages back. But w/o the smileys.

Great description!

Hey Kev - please PM me pricing on a mark williams rear-end set-up. I gonna need it!

Joseph

 

[GTSnake]

I don't understand how the Striker heads would have any negative impacts on performance. I have had them for about a year without any driveability issues. I made sure that I got the deeper reach spark plugs because I knew that these heads required a longer plug. It's very simple you install what is specified and you will not have any problems.

My car runs very smooth and relatively cool without any problems. I had it tuned by PBJ who did an excellent job. I don't think I'm making the most out of what these heads are capable of but I got them because now I have more head room for something more radical in the future.

You should not have any reservations about getting Strikers because I know they are made by a very knowledgeable and skilled craftsman. Who else would know more about Viper heads than the man who has designed them since the inception?

 

[1TONY1]

I'm excited! Once Kenny's car is strapped down on Kevin's PFM Dyno and the iridiums are installed, we're going to witness a whole new positive displacement record.

Until I go to the dyno

 

[UndergroundRacing.com]

I'm excited! Once Kenny's car is strapped down on Kevin's PFM Dyno and the iridiums are installed, we're going to witness a whole new positive displacement record.

No remorse for the mistake??? really?????

Im sure this was Cudeaman's problem with his Viper as well. What plugs did you put in his car?? 3/4 reach also

 

[UndergroundRacing.com]

UndergroundRacing.com, with those plugs give a drop in power like SRK is seeing ??? or is it more a driveability issue ?

Both!!

 

[UndergroundRacing.com]

I made sure that I got the deeper reach spark plugs because I knew that these heads required a longer plug. It's very simple you install what is specified and you will not have any problems.

 

[grcforce327]

I'm excited! Once Kenny's car is strapped down on Kevin's PFM Dyno and the iridiums are installed, we're going to witness a whole new positive displacement record.

No remorse for the mistake??? really?????

Im sure this was Cudeaman's problem with his Viper as well. What plugs did you put in his car?? 3/4 reach also

Well,I've seen and heard enough.Kenny,sorry you are having to go through this NIGHTMARE!!! Hope you get everything straightened out so that you can finally enjoy the car!WHAT A JOKE!!!Time for someone to come clean!!!

 

[grcforce327]

I'm excited! Once Kenny's car is strapped down on Kevin's PFM Dyno and the iridiums are installed, we're going to witness a whole new positive displacement record.

I bet you're totally surprise it already made it past two dyno's in ohio!!!

 

[KepRght]

so i lost.. i was betting the issues with your car kenny was a short in the **** injection causing your surging and random drivability issues. glad you found the problem!

the real question... aren't spark plugs one of the first things to check when a car wont tune as expected? if your pc wont turn on, 1st check to see if its plugged in. lol : (

 

[Simms]

I really didn't want to post on this thread, but I feel I have to since I am one of the few that has actually rode in Kenny's viper.

As an engineer, I agree with Underground's explanation. It’s a very mechanical explanation, very "textbook” if you may. In addition, one can argue that the current plug in Kenny's car is not the ideal/recommended choice. I am sure it would require a different tune than the iridium plugs, but I don't think you can say the car would absolutely not run with them. Why, because I wrode in it.

What I do know is that when I rode in the car it ran flawlessly. In fact, Kenny has posted on here that it ran smooth, didn't buck, idle hang, etc (once the battery was replaced). It also ran well for Ken's viper tech when it was delivered (with other Ohio VCA members present). It also produced monster torque on the dyno (actually more than it originally did with the iridium plugs and VEC2). Of course we get a different story about how it runs now........but that is to be expected with the drama of this situation.

I am sure some of you will say, "You’re a customer of Larry's and your opinion is biased, doesn’t count etc.", which is fine. I can accept that (and expect it from some). I have no reason to lie; I’m not going to gain anything out of it. Hell, I didn’t even have to post on the matter. Those of you who do know me, know that I tell it like it is. I'm not a bullsh!ter, I'm going to say what I think and know. I really don't care. If I thought Kenny's car ran bad when I was in it, I would have told Larry right then and there. I would have had no problem with that at all. He asked for my honest opinion and I gave it to him, the car ran great! Like many, I didn’t want to read anymore of this drama. I wanted both parties to be happy.

However, this situation is an unfortunate one that goes WAY beyond a spark plug (seems almost personal to me). There is so much more going on its absurd. Conflicting stories all over the place. You can disagree with me, say I am full of it, whatever, all I ask is at least respect me for saying what I know (flame suit on).

 

[Doug Supercharged Vipers]

Guys - after reading this thread I also wanted to add something that may be advantageous to all parties involved.

At this point, I'd remove the cats and inspect them. Through past experience, I would suspect they are no good (at no fault of anyone). This could also account for the discrepancies between performance & dyno shifts from one day to the next.

Best of luck to all

 

[2MANYTOYS]

Guys - after reading this thread I also wanted to add something that may be advantageous to all parties involved.

At this point, I'd remove the cats and inspect them. Through past experience, I would suspect they are no good (at no fault of anyone). This could also account for the discrepancies between performance & dyno shifts from one day to the next.

Best of luck to all

Doug what's your take on the plug issue? Have you ever installed these heads? Are you saying that if there is a cat issue then would this be the cause of the problems despite the short plugs?

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

For the record, F1 and older Indy engines use/used retracted gap plugs. They did so because the designer couldn't give up the cut-out in the piston dome because it would lower the compression ratio. In very highly turbocharged engines it was the only way to keep the plug tip cool. In this application it may prove not to be the ideal, but it wouldn't keep the engine from running fairly well.

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[Jack B]

It is real simple, take the extended reach plug out of a stock viper and watch the drivability change. Kevin is exactly right, it is like retarding the timing. Tom is also right, on a car driven all day at a peak rpm, it would be less noticeable, but, losing some hp.

 

[Simms]

It is real simple, take the extended reach plug out of a stock viper and watch the drivability change. Kevin is exactly right, it is like retarding the timing. Tom is also right, on a car driven all day at a peak rpm, it would be less noticeable, but, losing some hp.

Jack, I agree and disagree with you. In this case, you can't just say take the extended reach plug out of a stock viper and watch the drivability change. Of coarse it would change if you didn't change the tune. Take the plug out and now re-tune it for that plug. Kenny's car was tuned using the shorter plug. It wasn't tuned with the extended plug then the shorter plug swapped in.

I can't speak for Tom, but what I think he was also saying is just because the plug is retracted, doesn't mean it can't be tuned to run that way. The retracted plug would be a different tune than the extended one.

 

[dansauto]

But is a retracted plug and and a plug stuffed have way up the head the same? It does not appear that way. A retracted plug still has the tip near the combustion, it does not look like the plug recessed that far in the head will have the same effect. Add a rich tune and I suspect major drivabality issues.

 

[UndergroundRacing.com]

For the record, F1 and older Indy engines use/used retracted gap plugs. They did so because the designer couldn't give up the cut-out in the piston dome because it would lower the compression ratio. In very highly turbocharged engines it was the only way to keep the plug tip cool. In this application it may prove not to be the ideal, but it wouldn't keep the engine from running fairly well.

You must be registered for see images attach

The situation here in relation to an F1 car turning high RPM's in a race only highly turbocharged engine VS a street driven Viper on a low boost situation. Saying that "it WOULDN'T keep the engine from running fairly well" on street driven low RPM situation is a real stretc. Look at it this way. The wrong plug that was in there is for a stock casting head with the 3/4 reach.. that autolite is 5 stages colder then stock... putting that plug in a condition where it would be 1/4 in the hole it would be like turning that plug into something along the line of 20 stages colder then stock. This is not something that would work well across a wide RPM or temperature range. The man who engineered these heads will tell you the same thing.

PS. Besides this should not even be a discussion. The plugs are wrong Period!!!!! It would be like putting transmission fluid in a engine... Just because it is wet don't mean it will work....get the point?

 

[dansauto]

For the record, F1 and older Indy engines use/used retracted gap plugs. They did so because the designer couldn't give up the cut-out in the piston dome because it would lower the compression ratio. In very highly turbocharged engines it was the only way to keep the plug tip cool. In this application it may prove not to be the ideal, but it wouldn't keep the engine from running fairly well.

You must be registered for see images attach

The situation here in relation to an F1 car turning high RPM's in a race only highly turbocharged engine VS a street driven Viper on a low boost situation. Saying that "it WOULDN'T keep the engine from running fairly well" on street driven low RPM situation is a real stretc. Look at it this way. The wrong plug that was in there is for a stock casting head with the 3/4 reach.. that autolite is 5 stages colder then stock... putting that plug in a condition where it would be 1/4 in the hole it would be like turning that plug into something along the line of 20 stages colder then stock. This is not something that would work well across a wide RPM or temperature range. The man who engineered these heads will tell you the same thing.

PS. Besides this should not even be a discussion. The plugs are wrong Period!!!!! It would be like putting transmission fluid in a engine... Just because it is wet don't mean it will work....get the point?

right on,

I would also think that the more you drive the car the more "loaded up" it gets and the driveability would get progressivly worse. Maybe is was not so evident at first after running it to red line on the dyno, but now it is. To Doug's point as well the cats are probably shot and the 02 sensors as well.


Kevin-you are not making any friends in Florida

 

[Warfang]

Is this thread still on?