Latest from Edmunds. Dyno test.

[bcmarly]

Are you suggesting that journalists are agenda free? Nah, not possible.

1BADGTS is back....now its a PARTY!!!

Welcome back, honestly it's been a little boring without your input.

Now, having said what you said and the experience you have with mags, you must tell us the other side....how many vehicles take a total crap, break, fail, go into limp mode, etc and the magazines never publish these flops? From my experience, you never get the complete honest answer. And not too many years ago, the lag time from the written article to hitting the newstand was often at least 3 months. A lot of arm twisting and advertising "persuasion" would take place before the book went to the printers.



Cheers,
George

 

[doctorbob]

ACRucrazy..........I just have to laugh. One of my internist friends had a new patient show up with a similar tinfoil cap.......to keep the aliens out of his head. You cannot make this stuff up. No offense to anyone but it is a great picture. The cat looks like he has about had enough (and so have I when it comes to this thread). Exit stage left

 

[1BADGTS]

Are you suggesting that journalists are agenda free? Nah, not possible.

Guys a mag test driver might be in 30 DIFFERENT CARS A DAY .On average they fly 100k miles per year .DRIVING is not special to them ITS A JOB .(If someone is a plumber fixing a toilet in a 10 million dollar house or a 50 k house its still fixing a toilet )Their attitude WHETHER TESTING A VIPER OR A FGT OR A SALEEN S-7 IS NICE CAR ON TO THE NEXT ONE (ITS NOTHING PERSONAL )A driver might be in ENGLISHTOWN NJ one day(running 15 cars ) ,get on a plane to Dearborn (test drive for Ford )then head to Vegas for a tire test or show. ON ANOTHER POINT ,EPA TESTING. ONCE A MOTOR IS EPA TESTED AND CERTIFYED ABSOLUTELY NOTHING CAN BE TOUCHED ON IT .If the GEN 5 motor has gone thru the above (and it has )what you see is what you get unless Dodge plans to spend millions and get the carv recertifyed.

 

[1BADGTS]

1BADGTS is back....now its a PARTY!!!

Welcome back, honestly it's been a little boring without your input.

Now, having said what you said and the experience you have with mags, you must tell us the other side....how many vehicles take a total crap, break, fail, go into limp mode, etc and the magazines never publish these flops? From my experience, you never get the complete honest answer. And not too many years ago, the lag time from the written article to hitting the newstand was often at least 3 months. A lot of arm twisting and advertising "persuasion" would take place before the book went to the printers.



Cheers,
George

George i have never seen a factory car (that carrys a full warranty have an issue )By the time a mag gets one (provided its not an early prototype )tens of milions in Rand D have been spent. That being said TUNER CARS ARE OFTEN COMPLETE NIGHTMARES if tested in the identical way as a stock factory car .I PERSONALLY have witnessed the owners of various tuner car companys PLEAD not to have results reported if an engine ect went

 

[1BADGTS]

PS George if you have ever witnessed a prototype being tested you would not believe what they do to it .Iwas at Englishtown for an early Ford GT prototype test Ford had 2 tract trailers full of parts and 15 engineers monitering computer data.The prototype was literally beat to death for 2 days .Ford in this one test alone went for 200k plus .(Just the tip of the iceburg )

 

[Bobpantax]

The fact of the matter is that the ZR1 has been around for quite some time and those who do the testing for the car mags are familiar with it. They are not familiar with the Gen V. Skill set is important but the amount of prior experience with the vehicle being tested makes a significant difference in the result obtained. There is no such thing as too much practice. Anyone who thinks differently really does not know what they are talking or writing about.

 

[bushido]

Unless Dodge plans to spend millions and get the car recertified.

I agree aint gonna happen, and all the talk about forced induction etc is just wishful thinking..

 

[chorps]

The recertification part is a pain, one can see that even the 2009 changes to the PCM e-gas in the Viper were NOT back ported by Dodge to reduce throttle lag in the 2008s because it would require recertification.

 

[1BADGTS]

The fact of the matter is that the ZR1 has been around for quite some time and those who do the testing for the car mags are familiar with it. They are not familiar with the Gen V. Skill set is important but the amount of prior experience with the vehicle being tested makes a significant difference in the result obtained. There is no such thing as too much practice. Anyone who thinks differently really does not know what they are talking or writing about.

For an average driver yes a pro however will in 4 runs be totally dialed in I had my GEN 4 tested against a Shelby Super Snake. The driver HAD VIRTUALLY O seat time in a Gen 4 Viper .Four total runs 11.4-11.2 .(fastest TOTALLY STOCK MAG PUBLISHED TIMES Gen 4 )From the 60 foot times the pro was able to assertain whether (considerating atmospheric cond and track cond)we could go faster than 11.2 )With a 1.79 sixty foot on stock Pilots it was pointless to beat the car any further (Could we have gone 11.1 MAYBE but considering the track and air the car was done ).I was also at ENGLISHTOWN when the STOCK Gen 2 Mag time of 11.77 was set .Pro came in within 4 runs ran the 11.7 and it was done .When a pro is in the car( nomatter the seat time) VIRTUALLY EVERY RUN will be within one tenth thats why they get paid the money they do

 

[troublemaker]

1badgts. I agree with the above statement as far as drag times go. As far as tracks with turns, finding the limit in turns can take substantially more time as the driver gets acquainted with the car. The pros just seem to find that limit faster than the rest of us. I guarantee after 40-50 laps in in an unfamiliar car the law of dismissing returns would take effect, but I bet the times on average would keep getting better.

 

[Bobpantax]

Not correct either for quarter mile or a road course. Or for that matter any kind of real racing. Take for instance a drag racer named Ranger who is widely regarded as the best Corvette pilot on a quarter mile track. I have communicated with Ranger. He practices over and over and over again. He keeps stats on every run he makes and compares the data. The same applies to any professional drag racer. They constantly work on their reaction time, consistency,smoothness and other behaviors depending on the class of vehicle raced. This is also true of road racers. They practice. On a road course, the track and the car are constantly changing. Fuel is being depleted; tires and brakes get hotter, etc. The track surface may change. The goal of the professional is to always improve. There is no way a professional hopped into a Gen V Viper for the first time and achieved the same competence as he had with a ZR1 that he had driven many times before. Increased confidence comes with practice whether you are a professional or not. Any view to the contrary is pure nonsense.

For an average driver yes a pro however will in 4 runs be totally dialed in I had my GEN 4 tested against a Shelby Super Snake. The driver HAD VIRTUALLY O seat time in a Gen 4 Viper .Four total runs 11.4-11.2 .(fastest TOTALLY STOCK MAG PUBLISHED TIMES Gen 4 )From the 60 foot times the pro was able to assertain whether (considerating atmospheric cond and track cond)we could go faster than 11.2 )With a 1.79 sixty foot on stock Pilots it was pointless to beat the car any further (Could we have gone 11.1 MAYBE but considering the track and air the car was done ).I was also at ENGLISHTOWN when the STOCK Gen 2 Mag time of 11.77 was set .Pro came in within 4 runs ran the 11.7 and it was done .When a pro is in the car( nomatter the seat time) VIRTUALLY EVERY RUN will be within one tenth thats why they get paid the money they do

 

[Jack B]

Let me add a little more to the argument. ET's of 11.2 to 11.4 and not a sign of consistency. Just because of lot of seat time in my car the last five ET's in my Gen 2 were in a range of 11.00 to 11.05 - you don't jump into a car and get the best out of it whether you are a pro or rookie.

Not correct either for quarter mile or a road course. Or for that matter any kind of real racing. Take for instance a drag racer named Ranger who is widely regarded as the best Corvette pilot on a quarter mile track. I have communicated with Ranger. He practices over and over and over again. He keeps stats on every run he makes and compares the data. The same applies to any professional drag racer. They constantly work on their reaction time, consistency,smoothness and other behaviors depending on the class of vehicle raced. This is also true of road racers. They practice. On a road course, the track and the car are constantly changing. Fuel is being depleted; tires and brakes get hotter, etc. The track surface may change. The goal of the professional is to always improve. There is no way a professional hopped into a Gen V Viper for the first time and achieved the same competence as he had with a ZR1 that he had driven many times before. Increased confidence comes with practice whether you are a professional or not. Any view to the contrary is pure nonsense.

 

[bluestreak]

A driver of Randy's caliber may not get the last tenth but you can pretty much be sure he's within a second. Mind you he is not driving like its world challenge qualifying. Either way there are not 2 seconds there worth of unfamiliarity.

 

[SnakeBitten]

A driver of Randy's caliber may not get the last tenth but you can pretty much be sure he's within a second. Mind you he is not driving like its world challenge qualifying. Either way there are not 2 seconds there worth of unfamiliarity.

I agree. Normally Id imagine this is the case. Buttt, isn't it in the realm of possibility that a factory driver like Farnbacher, being much more familiar with the Viper at its limits, could make up 2 seconds? I'm sure he is doing/done enough laps familiarizing himself with the car for that retest at Laguna Ralph talked about. Randy was obviously not comfortable or confident in the Vipers capability to push it to those limits according to what he himself said IIRC.

Is there 2+ seconds worth of improvement to be had? That is the million dollar question. That remains to be seen. Ralph seems confident it will beat the ZR1 in the retest. That tells us two things possibly. One, in their testing it did beat the ZR1. Two, Ralph is more than confident that it will not only make up the 2.1 seconds but beat, NOT tie, the ZR1's record. Very bold statements of course considering the perceived tire/braking mismatch between the two cars. I am skeptical about Ralph's claims but I am hopeful that somehow the Viper will win the retest and all our worrying was for nothing.

 

[ViperSmith]

I agree. Normally Id imagine this is the case. Buttt, isn't it in the realm of possibility that a factory driver like Farnbacher, being much more familiar with the Viper at its limits, could make up 2 seconds? I'm sure he is doing/done enough laps familiarizing himself with the car for that retest at Laguna Ralph talked about. Randy was obviously not comfortable or confident in the Vipers capability to push it to those limits according to what he himself said IIRC.

Is there 2+ seconds worth of improvement to be had? That is the million dollar question. That remains to be seen. Ralph seems confident it will beat the ZR1 in the retest. That tells us two things possibly. One, in their testing it did beat the ZR1. Two, Ralph is more than confident that it will not only make up the 2.1 seconds but beat, NOT tie, the ZR1's record. Very bold statements of course considering the perceived tire/braking mismatch between the two cars. I am skeptical about Ralph's claims but I am hopeful that somehow the Viper will win the retest and all our worrying was for nothing.

Winkler hit 1:33.92 in a '08 ACR, whereas Pobst ran a 1:35.1X from what I recall in the MT article in the ACR. So, I think everyone is underestimating what could be done.

But still, Pobst was within 6/10 of a second of his ACR time in the new SRT, yet - people criticize the SRT?

 

[SnakeBitten]

Winkler hit 1:33.92 in a '08 ACR, whereas Pobst ran a 1:35.1X from what I recall in the MT article in the ACR. So, I think everyone is underestimating what could be done.

But still, Pobst was within 6/10 of a second of his ACR time in the new SRT, yet - people criticize the SRT?

I know what you are trying to say but I wouldn't use the criteria in your post to qualify it. Ive been to the track a few times and watched same car, same tune, same driver on different days/nights perform very differently in both mph and et. Id imagine in circuit racing its similar as Ive read from some of the track rats.

But I believe there is an improvement to be had even with Randy, if he got more familiar with the car so he could drive it with more confidence in the brakes and chassis. Common sense and info based on his own admission tells one this. Is it enough for 2+ secs? Thats where possibility and reality may butt heads. I think its at least possible based on the info we have. But until SRT does the deed its all speculation either way.

 

[ViperSmith]

But if people want to say "Different day, different temp, different wind speed" - then keeping track of best runs is moot in all. Using them as a metric is pointless then.

We shall see, we are just waxing poetic until they get out there again...

 

[Bobpantax]

Probst said that he was not as confident in the Viper. Translation: He was a bit fearful of pushing it to its limits. To me, at least on a road course of the size of LS, that could easily add up to a two second or more difference. We will soon know since the retest will soon occur.

 

[bcmarly]

Not true, the bias is there and your analogy is flawed. Anytime a journalist uses terms like “****** and cartoonish” to describe a car, there is bias. A better analogy would be a music critic, or a film critic. The bias is inherent and starts early. If you have ever taken a journalism course, or two, you would know that what is taught is not consistent with standards based on objectivity.

Guys a mag test driver might be in 30 DIFFERENT CARS A DAY .On average they fly 100k miles per year .DRIVING is not special to them ITS A JOB .(If someone is a plumber fixing a toilet in a 10 million dollar house or a 50 k house its still fixing a toilet )Their attitude WHETHER TESTING A VIPER OR A FGT OR A SALEEN S-7 IS NICE CAR ON TO THE NEXT ONE (ITS NOTHING PERSONAL )A driver might be in ENGLISHTOWN NJ one day(running 15 cars ) ,get on a plane to Dearborn (test drive for Ford )then head to Vegas for a tire test or show. ON ANOTHER POINT ,EPA TESTING. ONCE A MOTOR IS EPA TESTED AND CERTIFYED ABSOLUTELY NOTHING CAN BE TOUCHED ON IT .If the GEN 5 motor has gone thru the above (and it has )what you see is what you get unless Dodge plans to spend millions and get the carv recertifyed.

 

[v10enomous]

Also demonstrates a lack of creativity and originality...

Not true, the bias is there and your analogy is flawed. Anytime a journalist uses terms like “****** and cartoonish” to describe a car, there is bias. A better analogy would be a music critic, or a film critic. The bias is inherent and starts early. If you have ever taken a journalism course, or two, you would know that what is taught is not consistent with standards based on objectivity.

 

[TrackAire]

Probst said that he was not as confident in the Viper. Translation: He was a bit fearful of pushing it to its limits. To me, at least on a road course of the size of LS, that could easily add up to a two second or more difference. We will soon know since the retest will soon occur.

Bob,

From his report I took "not as confident" to be a polite way of saying the car is not set up correctly or it is not safe to push to the limit. At the limit he is capable of driving, even if the rear toe on one side is out of spec, it would definately show up at the limit he or any pro driver is capable of pushing the car to.

I am sure he also is under strict orders not to wreck the car and this must always be in the back of his mind.

IIRC, he was the driver of the Lambo Aventador a few issues back and that car suffered brake fade at Laguna Seca during one of their handling shootouts....I wasn't expecting that.

SRT should just show up with their driver and set a fast time....I want to see what a car is capable of, doesn't matter if I'll never get to that level or not.


Cheers,
George

 

[SnakeBitten]

But if people want to say "Different day, different temp, different wind speed" - then keeping track of best runs is moot in all. Using them as a metric is pointless then.

We shall see, we are just waxing poetic until they get out there again...

Yeah sometimes the car is capable of better but on a particular day its at the mercy of the conditions, driver etc. Best case scenario to minimize as much of the controllable variables as possible would be to have each mfg have its designated factory driver at the testing venue. Then a check by an independant party to make sure that each car is exactly to showroom stock mfg specs. Then test away same day same approximate time etc. That would eliminate any complaining about driver, conditions, bias etc and just leave you with the results as they are. No way to remove all the variables such as one factory driver might be better than the other factory driver etc...

I too cant wait till they go out there again. Win or lose we will know what the Gen V GTS is capable of in the hands of a driver that's more confident in the car than Randy was...That's no knock on Randy.

Probst said that he was not as confident in the Viper. Translation: He was a bit fearful of pushing it to its limits. To me, at least on a road course of the size of LS, that could easily add up to a two second or more difference. We will soon know since the retest will soon occur.

These are my thoughts as well. Randy admitted it so therefore the test is compromised to some degree. We will soon find out to what degree.

 

[bluestreak]

I agree. Normally Id imagine this is the case. Buttt, isn't it in the realm of possibility that a factory driver like Farnbacher, being much more familiar with the Viper at its limits, could make up 2 seconds? I'm sure he is doing/done enough laps familiarizing himself with the car for that retest at Laguna Ralph talked about. Randy was obviously not comfortable or confident in the Vipers capability to push it to those limits according to what he himself said IIRC.

Is there 2+ seconds worth of improvement to be had? That is the million dollar question. That remains to be seen. Ralph seems confident it will beat the ZR1 in the retest. That tells us two things possibly. One, in their testing it did beat the ZR1. Two, Ralph is more than confident that it will not only make up the 2.1 seconds but beat, NOT tie, the ZR1's record. Very bold statements of course considering the perceived tire/braking mismatch between the two cars. I am skeptical about Ralph's claims but I am hopeful that somehow the Viper will win the retest and all our worrying was for nothing.

Yes, Farnbacher probably could go almost if not 2 seconds faster, but that's not the important question:

1) Could he do it in similar conditions on a green, cold track.
2) Could he do it without a team of engineers present optimizing settings.
3) Could he do it within only five laps.
4) Could he beat Jan Magnussen in a ZR1 on the same day (also going faster than Pobst)

That is a much tougher feat and those are the only criteria that make such a test relevant.

Probst said that he was not as confident in the Viper. Translation: He was a bit fearful of pushing it to its limits. To me, at least on a road course of the size of LS, that could easily add up to a two second or more difference. We will soon know since the retest will soon occur.

For an amatuer, yes 2 seconds, but not for a pro. Unless it was handling just plain wildly, which that does not seem to be the case. They drive and race cars all the time that do not have an ideal setup on them. He said the car did not inspire confidence, for whatever reason, he also said the Gen V did not have as much grip, which it doesn't on inferior tires. Grip inspires confidence, everything is relative. And in this case, he related it to the ZR1.

If the Gen V had pulled more G's in a few corners, I could understand, but it pretty much had less grip on every turn. That is a product of tires.

 

[Bobpantax]

It boggles my mind to read posts that minimize the importance of practice and experience with a particular car. I have been driving performance vehicles of one kind or another since I was 11 years old and have never, ever underestimated the importance of practice and experience with a vehicle. To some extent, some of the posts remind me of BM1's posts during the 2008 election cycle arguing that Obama's lack of executive experience was not important. The fact that a pro can hop in a car and get a better time than a non pro is meangless. The secret to professional ********** is practice, practice, and more practice with the vehicle along with a great crew to keep the car dialed in based on track conditions and driver feedback.

 

[bluestreak]

At the pro level, that is not the case. Pro's hop in cars all the time and get up to within a second of top qualifying times within a few laps. And that's on cars with lots of different settings. Street cars don't have that. Watch Leh Keen and Mike Skeen get in cars they've never driven before, with setups for any random dude, in platforms even that they have never driven before and blaze a fast time in a matter of a couple of laps. These guys have to show up to tracks they have never been to before and get up to pace immediately to give feedback to engineers. That is why they are called pro's. Otherwise, we could all be called that if it took months of practice to get up to speed.

It's not like Randy has a 24hr race in the ZR1 under his belt, he has probably 20-30 laps split up into 3-5 lap segments over the course of several years. There is no huge advantage there. Besides, MPSC as easily 2 seconds faster than the ZR1 he drove on PS2 the first time, and that was one of his first times in the ZR1, yet times still accurate.

The bottom line is that the tires aren't up to *****, and the rest of the tests are showing the same thing, so it's still a moot point to keep harboring on seat time when that's not the issue because none of these test drivers (that we know of) own the ZR1 and track it regularly, which would actually be an advantage. A few laps here and there isn't a real advantage.

 

[SnakeBitten]

Yes, Farnbacher probably could go almost if not 2 seconds faster, but that's not the important question:

1) Could he do it in similar conditions on a green, cold track.
2) Could he do it without a team of engineers present optimizing settings.
3) Could he do it within only five laps.
4) Could he beat Jan Magnussen in a ZR1 on the same day (also going faster than Pobst)

That is a much tougher feat and those are the only criteria that make such a test relevant.

.

1 & 2 are iffy until its done. By "green" I'm assuming you mean no rubber laid down around the track prior to his lapping? We wont know the condition of the track or temps etc until its over with. Hopefully no tweaks done to the Viper except correcting the prior toe problem Randy noticed. I can't imagine imagine showroom cars will come with that rear toe they talked about.

3. I think he can. What he and Coronel did in a few laps at the Nurburgring is ridiculous so Laguna should be doable.

4. Probably a pipe dream, though I would LOVE to see this. Viper vs ZR1/Jan vs Dominik as Laguna. No excuses. Im gonna say that with the advantage the ZR1 has with the brakes and tires theres no way Dominik could win this one. Equal tires and brakes? Then yeah he could win against Jan same day etc. I think the Gen V has the capability of beating the ZR1, even with Jan driving, but it is held back a bit by what we already mentioned.

 

[bluestreak]

I agree, same tires and it's game on.

If they do 1,2 and 3 (together) I do not thing Farnbacher would beat Randy by 2 seconds. Certainly not if srt took Randy's challenge to show up with a driver and have them test under in the same car on the same day. Silver lining is that Randy would be defending his rep and therefore would drive harder. However if the Gen V still does not beat the ZR1 it's all for nothing anyways and looks even worse.

 

[Bobpantax]

You do not know how much time Probst had in a ZR1 but we do know he had more time in a ZR1 than he had in the Viper. The same thing applies to all the other drivers in all the other tests. And I do not think that pros just hop in a car and get within top qualifying times in a few laps. First there are familiarization laps if it is a new car. Then there are laps to dial in the car in terms of suspension tune, tire and pressure choice and engine calibration. Then, after the car is dialed in, the qualifying laps occur. Even five to ten laps in a car versus none in the Viper before the test can be quite meangful in building the confidence needed to take the car to its limits - especially, as a poster said above, if there is a concern about wrecking the car which there very well may have been during the tests of the Viper.

At the pro level, that is not the case. Pro's hop in cars all the time and get up to within a second of top qualifying times within a few laps. And that's on cars with lots of different settings. Street cars don't have that. Watch Leh Keen and Mike Skeen get in cars they've never driven before, with setups for any random dude, in platforms even that they have never driven before and blaze a fast time in a matter of a couple of laps. These guys have to show up to tracks they have never been to before and get up to pace immediately to give feedback to engineers. That is why they are called pro's. Otherwise, we could all be called that if it took months of practice to get up to speed.

It's not like Randy has a 24hr race in the ZR1 under his belt, he has probably 20-30 laps split up into 3-5 lap segments over the course of several years. There is no huge advantage there. Besides, MPSC as easily 2 seconds faster than the ZR1 he drove on PS2 the first time, and that was one of his first times in the ZR1, yet times still accurate.

The bottom line is that the tires aren't up to *****, and the rest of the tests are showing the same thing, so it's still a moot point to keep harboring on seat time when that's not the issue because none of these test drivers (that we know of) own the ZR1 and track it regularly, which would actually be an advantage. A few laps here and there isn't a real advantage.

 

[bluestreak]

You do not know how much time Probst had in a ZR1 but we do know he had more time in a ZR1 than he had in the Viper. The same thing applies to all the other drivers in all the other tests. And I do not think that pros just hop in a car and get within top qualifying times in a few laps. First there are familiarization laps if it is a new car. Then there are laps to dial in the car in terms of suspension tune, tire and pressure choice and engine calibration. Then, after the car is dialed in, the qualifying laps occur. Even five to ten laps in a car versus none in the Viper before the test can be quite meangful in building the confidence needed to take the car to its limits - especially, as a poster said above, if there is a concern about wrecking the car which there very well may have been during the tests of the Viper.

you don't know how much time he had either. the only thing we know for sure is that he had a few more laps in the zr1. like I said the seat time excuses not going to fly when the Viper is losing every test on the road course.

Seat time is not the issue.

 

[georgethedog]

I gave up reading in the middle of page 3...