Lets Settle This Once And For All

Wicked

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I have the DLM intercooler and it helped A LOT, but it surely doesn't cure all heat soak. If you 1/4 your car a lot, after a couple passes you will see a noticeable drop in performance. If you do two back to back roll races you will see a drop in performance.

If you go with a Paxton, you absolutely need the DLM intercooler and tensioner!

Jason
 

MikeR

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You are over analyzing and worrying too much.

In my area Z06's run high 11's, but mostly 12's. In this part of the country on our tracks, with our prep, altitude, weather etc, there will be NO 10 second stock Z06's. So take all the posted times, hp, mph etc with a grain of salt. Just continue to mod, look to see gains and thats all that matters for you in your area.
If I do same mods as you and run a XX.xx@ ***.XX mph, doenst mean you will, you may be faster or slower.

I know you did some engine stuff and were expecting certain gains. From what you said without proper tuning it wasnt as powerful as you hoped. But yet your still the fastest in your area on the streets. I guarantee you wont regret the Paxton, as long as you get the DLM tensioner, DLM intercooler and have someone do a good tune. I was really on the fence with doing one. I still havent lost a race on the street except to ILLSMOQ. So I still felt very fast for the street. Im not looking to break track records either.

But after driving his car, my whole view changed. Its all i think about now. My fiance figured this would happen after I drove it. Its very streetable and plenty fast. Its 700 rwhp. Its everything you need for the street. You probably will never cross another car in your area as fast. But if you do, who cares, you will go broke trying to be the fastest.

So tomorrow call superchargers4less.com, order a Paxton, get the DLM tensioner and intercooler , you'll spend a total of around $8k and find someone to installl that bad boy.
You will then look like this after driving it... :D And I'll be jealous because it will probably be close to summer before I get mine.
 

HI-NOS-Viper

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This is a very informative post. I know this is a video of a ROE GTS, but damn it sounds awesome and makes me want to wait for Roe to come out with the GenIII SC. He is currently in the works on it as we speak. I cant wait to see the results of it. If you think the GenII Roe was nice, I heard he was upgrading components so the GenIII will surely be top of the line. I just hope it comes out soon. You wont have much of a power loss down low as with the paxton thats for sure, you will of course need stickier tires, but that is fine if you ask me :D:2tu:

[url=http://videos.streetfire.net/video/49c251e0-c762-4165-8abf-99ab0167d3e0.htm]
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Supercharged Viper
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black mamba1

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You are over analyzing and worrying too much.

In my area Z06's run high 11's, but mostly 12's. In this part of the country on our tracks, with our prep, altitude, weather etc, there will be NO 10 second stock Z06's. So take all the posted times, hp, mph etc with a grain of salt. Just continue to mod, look to see gains and thats all that matters for you in your area.
If I do same mods as you and run a XX.xx@ ***.XX mph, doenst mean you will, you may be faster or slower.

I know you did some engine stuff and were expecting certain gains. From what you said without proper tuning it wasnt as powerful as you hoped. But yet your still the fastest in your area on the streets. I guarantee you wont regret the Paxton, as long as you get the DLM tensioner, DLM intercooler and have someone do a good tune. I was really on the fence with doing one. I still havent lost a race on the street except to ILLSMOQ. So I still felt very fast for the street. Im not looking to break track records either.

But after driving his car, my whole view changed. Its all i think about now. My fiance figured this would happen after I drove it. Its very streetable and plenty fast. Its 700 rwhp. Its everything you need for the street. You probably will never cross another car in your area as fast. But if you do, who cares, you will go broke trying to be the fastest.

So tomorrow call superchargers4less.com, order a Paxton, get the DLM tensioner and intercooler , you'll spend a total of around $8k and find someone to installl that bad boy.
You will then look like this after driving it... :D And I'll be jealous because it will probably be close to summer before I get mine.
I graduated w/ a degree in Mechanical Engineering..and u r right, its in my nature to analyze analyze analyze. But you have been very helpful with your information. What makes it difficult is that there are a few guys out there who hate their Paxtons (they pm me privately) and then there are those who love them. The only system all owners seem to love is the twin turbo. Hell, if I paid $40k for a system I would love it to! But I think what you and I'll smoke u have contributed to the thread makes a solid argument. I think I will take your advice and simply buy the Paxton, intercooler and tensioner...put it on and see how much I enjoy it!
 

MikeR

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I graduated w/ a degree in Mechanical Engineering..and u r right, its in my nature to analyze analyze analyze. But you have been very helpful with your information. What makes it difficult is that there are a few guys out there who hate their Paxtons (they pm me privately) and then there are those who love them. The only system all owners seem to love is the twin turbo. Hell, if I paid $40k for a system I would love it to! But I think what you and I'll smoke u have contributed to the thread makes a solid argument. I think I will take your advice and simply buy the Paxton, intercooler and tensioner...put it on and see how much I enjoy it!

Thats what Im talking about. :2tu: :drive: :headbang:

Look forward to reading your review when finished.
 

Bobpantax

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"What makes it difficult is that there are a few guys out there who hate their Paxtons (they pm me privately) and then there are those who love them."

I, like you, also like analyzing data. See if the difference in the two groups is between those who had a stock Paxton kit installed by an experienced installer like Woodhouse versus those who went for more power beyond the stock kit and ran into performance and reliability problems. I bet that you will find that this is the difference. Get the stock kit. Have it installed by a place that has done many kits and which you know will be there in the future. You will not regret it. Good luck.
 

v10kingsnake

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I have the DLM intercooler and it helped A LOT, but it surely doesn't cure all heat soak. If you 1/4 your car a lot, after a couple passes you will see a noticeable drop in performance. If you do two back to back roll races you will see a drop in performance.

If you go with a Paxton, you absolutely need the DLM intercooler and tensioner!

Jason
WRONG, **** inj. will do wonders for the intake charge ALL DAY EVERY DAY!!!
 

v10kingsnake

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didnt UGR kevin make a world record in a paxton powered SRT this year ?

from his sig on the other site....Home of the Fastest Supercharged Viper!! 9.20 and it was a paxton
SHAME ON YOU PHIL, the car that ran the 9.20 was Brians Gen2 Yellow GTS a couple years back. 2MANYTOYS old setup.
 

v10kingsnake

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"What makes it difficult is that there are a few guys out there who hate their Paxtons (they pm me privately) and then there are those who love them."

I, like you, also like analyzing data. See if the difference in the two groups is between those who had a stock Paxton kit installed by an experienced installer like Woodhouse versus those who went for more power beyond the stock kit and ran into performance and reliability problems. I bet that you will find that this is the difference. Get the stock kit. Have it installed by a place that has done many kits and which you know will be there in the future. You will not regret it. Good luck.
I would love to say the guys that hate them have base kits installed by JOE BLOW. How many unpleased people on that list are rolling a DLM or UGR setup? Not many I guess
 

MikeR

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"What makes it difficult is that there are a few guys out there who hate their Paxtons (they pm me privately) and then there are those who love them."

I, like you, also like analyzing data. See if the difference in the two groups is between those who had a stock Paxton kit installed by an experienced installer like Woodhouse versus those who went for more power beyond the stock kit and ran into performance and reliability problems. I bet that you will find that this is the difference. Get the stock kit. Have it installed by a place that has done many kits and which you know will be there in the future. You will not regret it. Good luck.

With the "stock" kit you will have a crappy tensioner set up and crappy intercooler.

Dont listen to this guy, upgrade to the DLM stuff and have a very streetable and very reliable car, with more power then BobPantax's "stock" setup.
 

Bobpantax

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There is nothing wrong with the stock kit as installed by Woodhouse. I have had no problem with my tensioner. I have 9400 miles on the car in weather conditions from 100 plus degrees to 40 degrees. As for the DLM intercooler, there are different views as to the benefit. It does weigh more. It also, as noted above, does not completely cure heat soak. If you are going to quarter mile the car, ice has its benefits. As for road racing, I think that there are a number of posters running the stock system with the stock intercooler that have not had any problems. But, I was not really going to the issue of tensioners and bigger intercoolers. The issue of going beyond the stock kit concerns building up the engine, etc. I have heard about and seen a significant number of cars with a Paxton that are beyond the stock kit power levels that just don't seem to run well. That does not mean it is not possible to create one that does run well. It seems to mean that as the system becomes more complex, it is more prone to failure. Whatever you decide, enjoy your snake.
 

ILLSMOQ

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This is a very informative post. I know this is a video of a ROE GTS, but damn it sounds awesome and makes me want to wait for Roe to come out with the GenIII SC. He is currently in the works on it as we speak. I cant wait to see the results of it. If you think the GenII Roe was nice, I heard he was upgrading components so the GenIII will surely be top of the line. I just hope it comes out soon. You wont have much of a power loss down low as with the paxton thats for sure, you will of course need stickier tires, but that is fine if you ask me :D:2tu:

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/49c251e0-c762-4165-8abf-99ab0167d3e0.htm

The Roe blower does give the car a different sound where the paxton does not sound any different...and the "blower scream" of the roe sounds killer when your on it. I'm sure it will be a great set up when it is finally available....been "in the works" for a long time.

..........I'm still trying to figure out where you guys comeing up with a low rpm power loss on the paxton:dunno:
 

ILLSMOQ

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I have the DLM intercooler and it helped A LOT, but it surely doesn't cure all heat soak. If you 1/4 your car a lot, after a couple passes you will see a noticeable drop in performance. If you do two back to back roll races you will see a drop in performance.

If you go with a Paxton, you absolutely need the DLM intercooler and tensioner!

Jason

:rolleyes: of course you're going to get heat soak at the drag strip. You are blasting down the track at WOT then you are parking the car until the next round.....even an N/A car is going to get some heat soak at the drag strip.

as for the roll races 2 or 3 runs is usually all it takes for the other guy to give up.....can't say that I've noticed any power loss during those runs.
 

ILLSMOQ

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There is nothing wrong with.........more complex, it is more prone to failure. Whatever you decide, enjoy your snake.


Bob do you have the R4 program? If you do, you might want to do a little data logging and record a few runs. The split second box will tell you what the boost looks like and you can play back the run on your lap top.

My car felt real fast but it did have belt slipage, it made 644 at the wheels and it was not makeing more than 6 pounds of boost. The boost graph is at the bottom of the dyno graph.
beltslip1.JPG


I bet there are a ton of people that have belt slipage and don't realize it.
 

plumcrazy

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call doug levin and talk to him, the guy is the nicest and knows more about superchargeing a gen3 than anyone else. he will talk to you and answer all your questions....

305-249-7223

you got a built engine, throw a paxton on it and you wont need every last drop of hp im sure. (im not a fan of water ****) but its been used on plenty of paxton cars.

id like to hear from the guys who dont like their paxtons.....why ? and like others said, id bet its not a woodhouse,DLM,UGR,heffner customer either.
 
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black mamba1

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call doug levin and talk to him, the guy is the nicest and knows more about superchargeing a gen3 than anyone else. he will talk to you and answer all your questions....

305-249-7223

you got a built engine, throw a paxton on it and you wont need every last drop of hp im sure. (im not a fan of water ****) but its been used on plenty of paxton cars.

id like to hear from the guys who dont like their paxtons.....why ? and like others said, id bet its not a woodhouse,DLM,UGR,heffner customer either.
In this case the Paxton was built by one of those tuners. The guy simply does not like it. He showed me a graph that showed his average power over his power band was 440 rwhp, and he did not get into the 600+ area until 5000 rpm and beyond. So, that means that while yes, he peaks at over 650, most of his power is around 440 rwhp. Whereas some of the naturally aspirated competition in his area have an average rwhp in the 480 area...so these cars leave him in a roll on race. Then w/ heat soak, it gets worse w/ time. Now, that is his scenerio.
I have a built motor and ported heads, so my average rwhp should be substantially higher than his even w/ the parasitic losses at the lower rpms. That is a trade off I am willing to accept, in light of the options. The options are:

1. Roe Blower- unavailable
2. Twin Turbo- overkill for me, and c ostly
3. All out naturally aspirated- done most of that already, and still not enough power (600 rwhp max). This option is even more expensive than TT.
4. Gen 4- stongly considering this option too. But I would have to trade my current Viper in and there are still some kinks I need to work out of my car. I would never sell or trade in my car w/ its current problems.
5. Paxton- bolt on and just go. If I dont like it, I will take it off. But I dont think I will be disappointed, especially in light of the options.

So, most guys who have the Paxtons love them. Some are indifferent, and a few hate them. But hey, in light of my options...that seems to be the best route in my case.
 

Bobpantax

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Hi ILLSMOQ. Dyno runs including A/F and boost were done after installation at Woodhouse and three more were done this year locally at a shop that has done no mods for me and does not mod Vipers. ( I thought that I would get the most objective results using an unbiased dyno tester.) Everything was OK. My boost is at 7 pounds at 5900 RPM and the curve is smooth. I would be careful with the tensioner mod. Too much tension can damage the nose bearing on the supercharger and, possibly, the alternator bearing. Is the DLM tensioner more than a stock Paxton part with a few extra bolts and a paint job? Just curious. If you still have the original tensioner could you compare the two and report back? Thanks for the feedback. Happy Holidays!

Bob
 

v10kingsnake

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It is for people looking to milk out every last drop of power.

Refilling tanks gets old......just like filling a nitrous bottle gets old.
Um you couldn't be further from an accurate statement by saying that. Methanol costs about 3 bucks a GALLON. It only sprays under WOT usually. It is generally held in a 2 qt bottle in the rear of your car, and is generally mixed with a 50/50 water to methanol ratio. Methanol cools the intake charge and acts as race fuel would so you can prevent engine detonation. I had Kevin at UGR install one one my car because of THOSE REASONS HE STATED TO ME. Methanol will create additional power by controlling the intake temps under full load, thus combating or preventing heat soak. It is called by many a LIQUID INTERCOOLER, period.
 
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black mamba1

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Hi ILLSMOQ. Dyno runs including A/F and boost were done after installation at Woodhouse and three more were done this year locally at a shop that has done no mods for me and does not mod Vipers. ( I thought that I would get the most objective results using an unbiased dyno tester.) Everything was OK. My boost is at 7 pounds at 5900 RPM and the curve is smooth. I would be careful with the tensioner mod. Too much tension can damage the nose bearing on the supercharger and, possibly, the alternator bearing. Is the DLM tensioner more than a stock Paxton part with a few extra bolts and a paint job? Just curious. If you still have the original tensioner could you compare the two and report back? Thanks for the feedback. Happy Holidays!

Bob
hey bob, you dynoed your car? also, do u have e.t. times in the 1/4 mile? Just curious.
 

ILLSMOQ

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Um you couldn't be further from an accurate statement by saying that. Methanol costs about 3 bucks a GALLON. It only sprays under WOT usually. It is generally held in a 2 qt bottle in the rear of your car, and is generally mixed with a 50/50 water to methanol ratio. Methanol cools the intake charge and acts as race fuel would so you can prevent engine detonation. I had Kevin at UGR install one one my car because of THOSE REASONS HE STATED TO ME. Methanol will create additional power by controlling the intake temps under full load, thus combating or preventing heat soak. It is called by many a LIQUID INTERCOOLER, period.


no...I pretty much nailed it. you don't need to justify your reasons for installing it on your car to me...I couldn't care less about what you paid someone else to install on your car.

cost wasn't what I was pointing out...takeing the time to get the methanol and pour it into the bottle is a PITA just like going and getting you N2O bottle filled all the time *****.

if you want to wring out every last drop of HP and you have an agressive tune then you would probably need to run a **** kit.

I run a 50/50 mix of 100 and 91 octane, we have it at a local unocal. I do that just to be safe.
 

ILLSMOQ

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Hi ILLSMOQ. Dyno runs including A/F and boost were done after installation at Woodhouse and three more were done this year locally at a shop that has done no mods for me and does not mod Vipers. ( I thought that I would get the most objective results using an unbiased dyno tester.) Everything was OK. My boost is at 7 pounds at 5900 RPM and the curve is smooth. I would be careful with the tensioner mod. Too much tension can damage the nose bearing on the supercharger and, possibly, the alternator bearing. Is the DLM tensioner more than a stock Paxton part with a few extra bolts and a paint job? Just curious. If you still have the original tensioner could you compare the two and report back? Thanks for the feedback. Happy Holidays!

Bob

You are right the tensioner doesn't need to be tight..it just needs to stop the tensioner from allowing the belt to get to much slack in it.
 

Bobpantax

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The last of the dyno graphs showed 653/598. It was done at Fynetune in Miami. As to the ET, there is nothing official and what there is, under the policies of this board, cannot be posted. Let's just say, the vehicle meets my needs. The toughest issues are gas pedal modulation in first and sometimes second, and the shifter. Even tightened like mine, it is not the best. It appears the shifting issue may have been remedied in the 2008. I am sure one of the members that regularly tracks his 2008 will let us know.
 

v10kingsnake

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no...I pretty much nailed it. you don't need to justify your reasons for installing it on your car to me...I couldn't care less about what you paid someone else to install on your car.

cost wasn't what I was pointing out...takeing the time to get the methanol and pour it into the bottle is a PITA just like going and getting you N2O bottle filled all the time *****.

if you want to wring out every last drop of HP and you have an agressive tune then you would probably need to run a **** kit.

I run a 50/50 mix of 100 and 91 octane, we have it at a local unocal. I do that just to be safe.
Nailed it alright:crazy2:
Try educating yourself as to where you nailing it is contained in this cut and paste off SNOW PERFORMANCES WEBSITE.

1. What are the benefits of Water/Methanol injection?

Boost Cooler Benefits (Gasoline):

1. Low cost - where else can you get up to 60HP for as low as $299?
2. More power than other means of detonation control.
3. Efficiency - leaner air fuel ratio can be utilized for normal operation.
4. Greatly increases air charge densities for huge horsepower increases.



2. Can the Boost Cooler be applied to naturally aspirated and nitrous engines?

1.Naturally aspirated/high compression engines:

In this application, water/methanol injection allows the use of pump fuel in all but the most extreme situations which effects tremendous cost savings as well as horsepower increases due to air density increase and realized timing potential. The system is activated by a boost referenced switch so that injection takes place only during high engine loads when needed.

2. Engines using nitrous: With nitrous, water/methanol injection allows the use of full timing even with large (250HP+) quantities. Injection is controlled by the same means that controls nitrous injection.

3. Naturally aspirated/stock compression: With naturally aspirated engines with less than 10:1 compression, water/methanol is used typically in warm climates to get the intake temps back to 60f. Benefits include: 10-15 HP increases from air density increases and full timing, Increased gas mileage, and carbon free combustion chambers. Activation is by a throttle switch adjusted for onset engine load. With this application, the nozzle is sized so that no more than 10% of total fuel consumption at peak flywheel HP is injected.




3. Do I need an intercooler with Water/Methanol Injection?

Up to approximately 30 psi boost, water/methanol injection (using at least 50% methanol) will provide all the density increase/detonation control needed in most applications. Of course, intercooling and water/methanol injection would provide even greater benefits especially beyond 30 psi boost. Most air-to-air intercoolers are only 50-65% efficient. That means for example, that with 11 psi of boost and the resulting 120°f air charge temperature increase, an intercooler reduces the air charge temperature only 60 degrees. Also, an intercooler will reduce boost 2 - 4 psi. on average.


4. Why not use a windshield washer pump?

Water/Methanol must be injected at above 50psi to properly atomize. Lower than 50psi causes greatly reduced air charge cooling as the result of larger droplets and their reduced total surface area. Also with inadequate atomization, there is a greater propensity to quench combustion resulting in a loss of power.


5. Why Methanol?


Methanol is a high octane fuel that is extremely resistant to detonation with an excellent cost/benefit ratio. ($1.50 - $2.00 per gallon.) Its high latent heat of vaporization also makes it an excellent air charge cooler which means a denser mixture and more horsepower. Because of these facts, it is a better anti-detonant than ethanol or iso-propanol although they will work in a pinch. It has however only about 60% of the energy content of gasoline by volume so about twice as much is used to make similar power if used as a straight fuel. It is extremely toxic and should be handled with rubber gloves in well ventilated areas only. Care should be taken to avoid skin contact.


6. Where can I purchase Methanol?


SP sells 50/50% methanol/waterMethanol as Boost Juice™ (see products). Methanol can generally be purchased where racing fuels are sold. Also, most gas line dryers like "Heat" are simply Methanol. Suppliers of industrial chemicals can also supply Methanol usually at a higher price than fuel suppliers.

If all else fails, most windshield washer fluids are up to 40% Methanol and 58% water. Although most contain some glycol and detergent(less than 1%), most windshield washer fluids are up to 40% methanol. Try to find one that indicates "contains methanol" and is rated to -20ºf.

Methanol can be purchased on the web at World Wide Racing Fuels in Richmond Virginia and hiperfuels.com.



7. What ratio of water/methanol is recommended?

A 50/50 ratio is recommended. This has been demonstrated to be the best for charge/air cooling, excellent detonation control, and safety.

8. How long does the fluid last?

The range you'll get out of our system depends on a couple of variables:

- How much power you're making
- The settings of your system
- How aggressively you drive

In most instances our standard 2 quart reservoir works well to provide the required amount of fluid. We have seen that a 2 quart reservoir provides enough fluid for a 400-500 hp car to make 12-15 full throttle quarter mile passes.

For those looking to get more range out of their system, they can tap into their factory windshield washer reservoir and use it to hold water/methanol. This is a good option because most washer reservoirs have a large capacity (normally at least a gallon) plus they're already methanol resistant (washer fluid has methanol in it). Also, the washer reservoir is already under the hood so it doesn't require having to add another bulky item into the engine bay.

The fitting needed to tap into your washer reservoir is available for $9.95. The standard 2 quart reservoir can be swapped out for a blukhead fitting at no cost.
 
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black mamba1

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The last of the dyno graphs showed 653/598. It was done at Fynetune in Miami. As to the ET, there is nothing official and what there is, under the policies of this board, cannot be posted. Let's just say, the vehicle meets my needs. The toughest issues are gas pedal modulation in first and sometimes second, and the shifter. Even tightened like mine, it is not the best. It appears the shifting issue may have been remedied in the 2008. I am sure one of the members that regularly tracks his 2008 will let us know.
Great numbers!
 

v10kingsnake

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Oh and how long do you think it takes to pour 2 quarts of windshield washer fliud into a tank? 10 seconds...
Would that be cheaper than your 100 octane/93 octane mix? YES
What is more convienient, having to visit the track and pay 5-7 bucks a gallon for the race fuel or visit any gas station or auto parts store and buy a few gallons of windshield washer fluid a year? Do I need to answer that.
-------
Bottom line is you couldn't be MORE WRONG in what methanol does according to the people that invented the stuff. Hey, it's your money to blow. Just when you start telling others the same inconsistencies you think are fact is where I have a problem.
 
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MikeR

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The last of the dyno graphs showed 653/598. It was done at Fynetune in Miami. As to the ET, there is nothing official and what there is, under the policies of this board, cannot be posted. Let's just say, the vehicle meets my needs. The toughest issues are gas pedal modulation in first and sometimes second, and the shifter. Even tightened like mine, it is not the best. It appears the shifting issue may have been remedied in the 2008. I am sure one of the members that regularly tracks his 2008 will let us know.


So I take it you havent ever been to the drag strip??
Because it would not violate any rules to post your times from the track were its legal to race.
And if your refering to racing on the street, Im sure you dont break the speed limit, because that would break state or federal laws....Kinda like removing cats.
 

plumcrazy

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on my engine before it blew (basic bolt ons) it was over 500rwhp at 4000rpms with very little tuning yet.

and YOUR engine is fully built. I gotta think its gonna make a few more HP than mine did before very little tuning on a basically stock engine.

and for racing (keep in mind i dont profess to know anything about) dont you keep your rpm's in that higher range all thru the race ? i know i shift somewhere around 5500 and try to never let the rpm's drop. keeping it in that sweet spot where its making the most power.

AND for driving around town/crusing, its gonna run like a stocker.... :)

and for most of us, we drive around town/cruise 90% of the time. i dont want that instant power when crusing around.
 
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