Motortrend's World's Greatest Drag Race 3: VIPER places 4th

[kratedisease]

Not competitive may be a little bit of a stretch... So surprised you would come up with that. lol Wonder why they didn't have a ZR1 in the mix? So, are you hanging onto your Gen II for old times sake?

EVERYONE here thinks that I hate Viper. WRONG. And yes I am holding on to my old gen 1997 Viper. The bottom line is how any car performs. Back in 1997 I bought the Viper sight unseen simply because of the performance. Period. And I barely fit into the gen2 when it arrived. But after smoking several sport bikes, and every other car on the road, I knew I had the best car out there. Period.

I LOVE the gen5 Viper, but I do not fit well across the shoulders. My left arm is pinned so tight up against the top of the drivers door , I can barely turn the steering wheel with my left arm. I feel the car is tighter than my gen2 across the shoulders, but that is a totally different issue, BUT I could put up with almost anything if the car outperformed the competition.

As far as the new ZR1, I am afraid that chevy will release a very competitive car within a year or so , and that may weaken Viper sales further.

 

[HogWhisperer]

EVERYONE here thinks that I hate Viper. WRONG. And yes I am holding on to my old gen 1997 Viper. The bottom line is how any car performs. Back in 1997 I bought the Viper sight unseen simply because of the performance. Period. And I barely fit into the gen2 when it arrived. But after smoking several sport bikes, and every other car on the road, I knew I had the best car out there. Period.

I LOVE the gen5 Viper, but I do not fit well across the shoulders. My left arm is pinned so tight up against the top of the drivers door , I can barely turn the steering wheel with my left arm. I feel the car is tighter than my gen2 across the shoulders, but that is a totally different issue, BUT I could put up with almost anything if the car outperformed the competition.



As far as the new ZR1, I am afraid that chevy will release a very competitive car within a year or so , and that may weaken Viper sales further.

I get that one needs to be comfortable in a car.. I also get that one can give up some comfort if there are big-time performance factors that may override the comfort factor. To me, the comfort is there, the performance is there, and the car works for me, even if it does not out perform every other car in every category. I think your II has forced induction and other mods as does mine, which makes it a pretty hard car to beat performance wise. But the V definitely has some big-time improvements over the II in streetability with what I consider damned decent performance. Guess the car works well for some and less for others.

On a sidebar, there is a 2013 ZR1, so I am still wondering why it was not included in MT's runway race. I came very close to buying one a couple of years ago. Now, after getting the V, I am glad I didn't.

 

[GONABITE]

This conversation is like announcing in the past , " Viper ACR fastest Production car around Nurburgring, but dang it loses in the quarter mile!" Somehow logic and reason seems to be vacant as we can all viewed a dirty airport runway and why would we be shocked with dust obliterating the view of the cars that machines with AWD , etc. are quicker. Now again we have a new enthusiast bashing the time by reporting on various 1/4 mile times under who knows what weather, locations, or track conditions. The simple fact is no car does everything at the top, but the Viper has always been focused as a track car, not a drag racer. Does it do well, sure for a a car without AWD , etc. but the issue that it gets beat in a quarter is trivial when you start comparing other cars top speed runs, track times , etc.

What is more apparent is the 128mph trap speed noted by Nine Ball ---------- over the years the one test that folks seem to forget about is the strength the big V10 has when on the roll. Few will outrun it after a quarter mile and ...................that is good enough for me.

It takes alot more skill to road race one of these cars to its full potential versus drag racing. The Viper is definitely a beast on a road course, but how many people can drive it to its maximum level?

A drag strip is much easier for most folks to get to less time consuming and definitely requires skill but not nearly as much as road racing. So this is the mark that the general population looks to for the "performance of the car".

Sure it ***** that the new car runs mid to low 11's but why are so many people so quick to bury their heads in the sand and ignore it? Make SRT hear us we arent happy and there is no reason for this car to perform so bad in the 1/4 mile, improve it make it competitive with at least a 5 year old outgoing model corvette, because Im sure GM has every intention of improving on the 1/4 performance of that car as well as in the turns.

As many have said I truly think the ownership of SRT is what is holding this car back. Its sad. I was looking forward to owning my 3rd Viper as a Gen V, but with the lack of 1/4 mile performance and the inability to tune the existing computer to modify the car to make it "right" for me, Im looking at making my 3rd Viper a Gen IV ACR.

 

[Policy Limits]

It's ok to live in 1998, just don't live in 2005.

Hee hee...couldn't resist

 

[kratedisease]

It's ok to live in 1998, just don't live in 2005.

Hee hee...couldn't resist

Actually, I still have my 1980's hairstyle with the mullet, and still listen to Whitesnake and ZZ Top, so when I drive my 1997 GTS I am actually driving a "modern" car .....in my mind..... heh-heh

 

[FikseGTS]

I agree, when I bought my 1996 Viper GTS it was king of the hill and kept on blowing everything away years later.

There is a lot more competition these days and in my opinion the Viper has fallen behind... If the Viper is destined to stay old school keeping it's huge naturally aspirated V10 engine in the front, manual transmission and rear wheel drive while jacking up the price, so be it, just don't expect it to compete well in all categories for most drivers....

Sorry, but the gen2 GTS Viper beat everyone on every test except braking,. Find a copy of Motor Trend May 1998 and Motor trend July 1999 on ebay. To all the people who claim motor trend is biased, the gen 2 came out on top for several years in Motor trend testing. But now, all of a sudden its the writer, and not the car that is the problem. The Gen 2 decimated every car made at the time. This gen5 is no longer competitive. The competition is now better.

 

[ViperSmith]

Everyone needs to remember this isn't 1992/1996. "No compromise" back then was 100 more HP.

More HP isn't a magic bullet in 2013.

I don't see the Viper winning all the contests at its price point. You want a $100k drag racer, buy a DCT/AWD GT-R

You want a track monster, buy a TA or ZR-1.

A manual RWD car simply can't dominate anymore in every category.

It is nice to live in the past and think of the good ole days, but jeez - accept what the world is now. We live in a super car era.

Call them excuses, I call it reality.

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

Krate,

The competition is now better! Good statement , as there is a ton more competition now , than back then ,and I believe I stated no car does everything well, and having owned three Gen IIs, raced two ( won a National Championship in my 98 ), the area of brakes was non existent. Even with the advent of ABS the dang thing would not stop for long periods of time without boiling the fluid unless you put in brake ducting, etc. Have owned Gen IIIs, now have a Gen IV, and have driven numerous Gen Vs in Detroit. It is just a much better car, just as each generation has been, but you apparently aren't satisfied with the TA taking back the Laguna Track record or it being one of the few cars to top 200, let alone 206. Physics makes it a bit tough to have the gearing for everything imaginable?!

Why not play Devil's Advocate , what car does beat all these others in all categories, since that it what you imply should be done? Hmmm....................appears they all have an area they may not be #1 in. GTR may win the drag race , but not sure it will touch the top speed of the Viper, and we already know it won't beat it on the road course, so..................let's throw in a Veyron or something only a handful can afford and would anyone really care?

Sorry, you love your car, and that is very appropriate, but constant bashing of one or more trivial items is getting tedious ---- Viper never has done everything well, but then neither have many cars, and we all know today we have a car with a very decent A/C system, cruise, variable valve timing, dynamite brakes, better ride, just to list a few things that were not likely on the list in 1997.

 

[kratedisease]

Krate,

The competition is now better! Good statement , as there is a ton more competition now , than back then ,and I believe I stated no car does everything well, and having owned three Gen IIs, raced two ( won a National Championship in my 98 ), the area of brakes was non existent. Even with the advent of ABS the dang thing would not stop for long periods of time without boiling the fluid unless you put in brake ducting, etc. Have owned Gen IIIs, now have a Gen IV, and have driven numerous Gen Vs in Detroit. It is just a much better car, just as each generation has been, but you apparently aren't satisfied with the TA taking back the Laguna Track record or it being one of the few cars to top 200, let alone 206. Physics makes it a bit tough to have the gearing for everything imaginable?!

Why not play Devil's Advocate , what car does beat all these others in all categories, since that it what you imply should be done? Hmmm....................appears they all have an area they may not be #1 in. GTR may win the drag race , but not sure it will touch the top speed of the Viper, and we already know it won't beat it on the road course, so..................let's throw in a Veyron or something only a handful can afford and would anyone really care?

Sorry, you love your car, and that is very appropriate, but constant bashing of one or more trivial items is getting tedious ---- Viper never has done everything well, but then neither have many cars, and we all know today we have a car with a very decent A/C system, cruise, variable valve timing, dynamite brakes, better ride, just to list a few things that were not likely on the list in 1997.

Your points are valid, and thank you for NOT calling me a Troll as so many of those who disagree with me here do so simply to suppress opposing opinion and force those who do not agree to leave this site. Your reply carries weight and is valid. Yes, things have changed. Obviously the Lamborghini Adventador cannot compete around the track as well as today's Viper. Neither can the 250mph Bugatti. And yes the Nissan GT-R also cannot. But the point is more focused.... what is the Viper being tested against ? There was NO Corvette ZR1 or Porsche Turbo being tested the with the Viper. No Ferrari 458. It was being pitted against a Nissan design now 5 years old, a station wagon (that for being a station wagon is quite amazing), and a Ford Focus.

My concern is that this current Viper will age VERY Quickly when the current Porsche Turbo and current Corvette ZR1 arrive.

These are two cars that will compete in the straight line AND around a track.

Additionally the 2013 Viper is not pushing the technology envelope.

Thanks for your civil reply to my post.

 

[Policy Limits]

It's not the fastest car out there but it's pretty fast...and ****, exclusive and a lot of fun.

I think that most people whom are critical of the new snake are envious and really just wish one was in their garage; just a hunch.

 

[FikseGTS]

MP4-12C, 911 turbo, 458, GT-R Track Edition can all hang with the Viper with equivalent tires on a road course.... the Viper and the ZR1 have the stickier tires available from the factory to make up for their front engine RWD config....

 

[Bobpantax]

Maybe but the MP4-12C, 911 Turbo, and the 458 are WAY, WAY more expensive. What kind of numbers has the GTR Track Edition done at Leguna Seca? Any stats?

MP4-12C, 911 turbo, 458, GT-R Track Edition can all hang with the Viper with equivalent tires on a road course.... the Viper and the ZR1 have the stickier tires available from the factory to make up for their front engine RWD config....

 

[kratedisease]

It's not the fastest car out there but it's pretty fast...and ****, exclusive and a lot of fun.

I think that most people whom are critical of the new snake are envious and really just wish one was in their garage; just a hunch.

In my case, envy is not an issue. The cost of the car is chump change for me.

But I am very picky when I spend my cash.

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

Sorry, but please consider the fact that this car that you feel is not pushing the technology envelope is around 80% Carbon Fiber, had the first or one of the first engines to have variable valve timing on an OHV engine, has a new stronger and even more lightweight frame, was the vehicle the Tremec T6060 was designed for, has the most user friendly electronic display system in the automotive market per JD Power, has launch control and traction control with a system that will actually turn stuff off ( something we all begged for but with most vehicles it can never be totally defeated ), has a sumptuous interior on par with many European Exotics, incorporates an extremely impressive extruded aluminum door ( which is done in a special process at over 800 degrees ) panel, and is using a less costly two piece brake system that will stop with the best of them that use carbon fiber -- whether Stoptech or Brembo on the TA. That and it's very similar sibling just won at Road America - GTSR.

I honestly believe many are of the feeling that the Viper needs to consistently be the " King of the Hill," but with so many varying interests among automotive afficianados it just can't please everyone ------ similar to the fact that some love drags, some love autocrossing, some enjoy circle track, while others prefer road racing. Pretty doubtful one car will succeed in all areas , but the pedigree of consistently being at the top of track records Nationally and Worldwide, tells me the Snake succeeds way more than it is defeated. Losing a drag race , frankly, is of no importance to me at all, but as noted by reactions here , it is important to others. Does that make me right or them wrong, no , just different interests. I will beat the drum even more loudly about track times and it's history going back to the mid 90s, but then I realize, knowing the engineers at SRT, the focus of the Viper is track dominance and I do think that the GTSR will improve the breed even more.

So , a broad statement saying Stryker is not pushing the technology envelope really is too open ended and debatable on what you view as the technology envelope. Taking a V10 and continuing the magic ( not unlike the birth and rebirth of the small Chevy V8 designed in the 50s ) proves the technology envelope is not only being pushed , it is proving many folks wrong. Getting the torque monster to continue to breathe fire , is, in my estimation, a tour de force that makes me super proud to call some of the Engineering studs at SRT my friends!!

 

[Policy Limits]

BOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[TrackAire]

Maybe but the MP4-12C, 911 Turbo, and the 458 are WAY, WAY more expensive. What kind of numbers has the GTR Track Edition done at Leguna Seca? Any stats?

Bob,

The one thing that nobody will discuss and apparently nobody cares about is how long can these cars run at the track before they heat up or go into limp mode. I do know from personal experience that the GTR's transmission will start to get hot after 4 or 5 hot laps. Motor Trend reported that they could overheat the brakes on the new Aventador when testing about 18 months ago at Laguna Seca and were surprised since they are carbon ceramics. I do not know anybody that has tracked the MP4-12C or the 458 for multiple track sessions in 90 degree plus heat. How do the DCT's, coolant temps, oil temps, etc hold up on these cars? You would think with their track pedigree they should not have any problems, but again, I've seen a lot of high dollar supercars take a crap at the track when really driven hard in California temps.

Doing a couple of drag runs is not that hard. Doing one or two hot laps around a demanding track like Laguna Seca is no big deal. But push a car for five 20 minute sessions and all sorts of weird stuff starts to pop up. Having a Gen 5 with some quirks is one thing, but having a $200K plus supercar sidelined at the track because it can't handle hard driving conditions for 5 or 6 laps would be embarrassing.

Cheers,
George

 

[kratedisease]

Sorry, but please consider the fact that this car that you feel is not pushing the technology envelope is around 80% Carbon Fiber, had the first or one of the first engines to have variable valve timing on an OHV engine, has a new stronger and even more lightweight frame, was the vehicle the Tremec T6060 was designed for, has the most user friendly electronic display system in the automotive market per JD Power, has launch control and traction control with a system that will actually turn stuff off ( something we all begged for but with most vehicles it can never be totally defeated ), has a sumptuous interior on par with many European Exotics, incorporates an extremely impressive extruded aluminum door ( which is done in a special process at over 800 degrees ) panel, and is using a less costly two piece brake system that will stop with the best of them that use carbon fiber -- whether Stoptech or Brembo on the TA. That and it's very similar sibling just won at Road America - GTSR.

I honestly believe many are of the feeling that the Viper needs to consistently be the " King of the Hill," but with so many varying interests among automotive afficianados it just can't please everyone ------ similar to the fact that some love drags, some love autocrossing, some enjoy circle track, while others prefer road racing. Pretty doubtful one car will succeed in all areas , but the pedigree of consistently being at the top of track records Nationally and Worldwide, tells me the Snake succeeds way more than it is defeated. Losing a drag race , frankly, is of no importance to me at all, but as noted by reactions here , it is important to others. Does that make me right or them wrong, no , just different interests. I will beat the drum even more loudly about track times and it's history going back to the mid 90s, but then I realize, knowing the engineers at SRT, the focus of the Viper is track dominance and I do think that the GTSR will improve the breed even more.

So , a broad statement saying Stryker is not pushing the technology envelope really is too open ended and debatable on what you view as the technology envelope. Taking a V10 and continuing the magic ( not unlike the birth and rebirth of the small Chevy V8 designed in the 50s ) proves the technology envelope is not only being pushed , it is proving many folks wrong. Getting the torque monster to continue to breathe fire , is, in my estimation, a tour de force that makes me super proud to call some of the Engineering studs at SRT my friends!!

Valid point. I never have tracked my car. And those people who do SHOULD buy a Viper since it will perform in that area. But like most people, I only drive on the street. If I went to the track then I would ONLY buy a 2013 Viper since I understand that is where it shines. I understand your point and it is taken. Lets just leave it at that.. that the Viper is a focused car that may not be for everyone. I'm not going to beat a dead horse, so please do not respond to my next statement... but I believe that if it came with 700+HP stock for 2013 then people would be much more impressed. Lets see how Hennesy's or other tuners cars will perform once they increase the HP to over 700. Everyone says that more HP will not help since traction is now an issue off the line. I say lets see how the tuner cars do. If they perform better in the 1/4 then everyone here will eat crow.

 

[kratedisease]

BOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OUCH !!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

Oh, I understand , the horsepower theme will never go away, as it has always been the focus for almost everyone, yet the dominance of the Viper has been for years based on torque, not HP.

Your Gen II was never going to work on the track, as it was too heavy and used an archaic motor with not enough hp to carry all it's bulk - so said many. With FIA championships galore , and Overall Win at Daytona in 2000, guess they just missed the torque barometer that epitomized what the car was all about. Once we get 700, some will want 750hp, it is human nature, but our car is about torque and thankfully with the throttle bodies squeezed down to the opening of a straw in the ALMS, they have likely missed our trump card once again.

That said , I have a feeling it won't be hard to massae to 700 in the near future, as it has been rumored for months MoPar will likely have a race PCM in the future.

 

[Bobpantax]

Excellent post George.

Bob,

The one thing that nobody will discuss and apparently nobody cares about is how long can these cars run at the track before they heat up or go into limp mode. I do know from personal experience that the GTR's transmission will start to get hot after 4 or 5 hot laps. Motor Trend reported that they could overheat the brakes on the new Aventador when testing about 18 months ago at Laguna Seca and were surprised since they are carbon ceramics. I do not know anybody that has tracked the MP4-12C or the 458 for multiple track sessions in 90 degree plus heat. How do the DCT's, coolant temps, oil temps, etc hold up on these cars? You would think with their track pedigree they should not have any problems, but again, I've seen a lot of high dollar supercars take a crap at the track when really driven hard in California temps.

Doing a couple of drag runs is not that hard. Doing one or two hot laps around a demanding track like Laguna Seca is no big deal. But push a car for five 20 minute sessions and all sorts of weird stuff starts to pop up. Having a Gen 5 with some quirks is one thing, but having a $200K plus supercar sidelined at the track because it can't handle hard driving conditions for 5 or 6 laps would be embarrassing.

Cheers,
George

 

[FikseGTS]

true for the exotic makes, but the GT-R is $30k less than the equivalent Viper, and the base price of the new 991 911 turbo is $148k, right inline with the new Viper...

let's put me in the GT-R and you in the Viper and see what happens...

Maybe but the MP4-12C, 911 Turbo, and the 458 are WAY, WAY more expensive. What kind of numbers has the GTR Track Edition done at Leguna Seca? Any stats?

 

[kratedisease]

true for the exotic makes, but the GT-R is $30k less than the equivalent Viper, and the base price of the new 991 911 turbo is $148k, right inline with the new Viper...

let's put me in the GT-R and you in the Viper and see what happens...

OK, and I will be the camera guy tailing both of you in my Ford Pinto....

 

[Bobpantax]

On a road course, your on as soon as you can get SRT to supply me with a TA for the race. LOL. Homestead or Palm Beach? I like Homestead. And note this: "Both the Turbo and Turbo S go on sale here in the U.S. late this year, while the inevitable droptop versions have yet to be announced. Pricing starts at a cool $149,250 for the Turbo and $182,050 for the Turbo S, but that’s assuming buyers can resist probing the depths of Porsche’s comprehensive options list". The TA price will be about 121K or so including gas guzzler and delivery charge. So the cars are not quite in the same price range.

true for the exotic makes, but the GT-R is $30k less than the equivalent Viper, and the base price of the new 991 911 turbo is $148k, right inline with the new Viper...

let's put me in the GT-R and you in the Viper and see what happens...

 

[FikseGTS]

If you're going to tout the TA then buy it and I'll be in the GT-R.... as for the 911 turbo, the prices can indeed overlap....

On a road course, your on as soon as you can get SRT to supply me with a TA for the race. LOL. Homestead or Palm Beach? I like Homestead. And note this: "Both the Turbo and Turbo S go on sale here in the U.S. late this year, while the inevitable droptop versions have yet to be announced. Pricing starts at a cool $149,250 for the Turbo and $182,050 for the Turbo S, but that’s assuming buyers can resist probing the depths of Porsche’s comprehensive options list". The TA price will be about 121K or so including gas guzzler and delivery charge. So the cars are not quite in the same price range.

 

[SRT09]

That main question is who is driving anyone can probably get close to the same one in a GTR not the same for a Viper driver mod is huge in our cars!

 

[kratedisease]

Oh, I understand , the horsepower theme will never go away, as it has always been the focus for almost everyone, yet the dominance of the Viper has been for years based on torque, not HP.

Your Gen II was never going to work on the track, as it was too heavy and used an archaic motor with not enough hp to carry all it's bulk - so said many. With FIA championships galore , and Overall Win at Daytona in 2000, guess they just missed the torque barometer that epitomized what the car was all about. Once we get 700, some will want 750hp, it is human nature, but our car is about torque and thankfully with the throttle bodies squeezed down to the opening of a straw in the ALMS, they have likely missed our trump card once again.

That said , I have a feeling it won't be hard to massae to 700 in the near future, as it has been rumored for months MoPar will likely have a race PCM in the future.

Let me also be very clear. I do not hate the gen5 Viper. I just wish it was better than what it is. On a scale of 1 to 10 it was a 8 or possibly a 7 on it's score card for cutting edge technology. ( direct injection, DCT tranny, etc)

It is a huge improvement but still falls short in many areas for the customer who does not track race.

Whereas Ferrari is on the cutting edge of technology ( and you pay dearly for the tech) , and the Nissan GT-R might be in the upper middle level,....with the Tremec 6 speed manual the Viper does not justify the GTS price point. Even the new Corvette is getting a 7 speed.

For the base car at 99G it is still worth it simply based upon low production numbers and exclusivity, being that Corvette Z06 cost about 75to 80G's. Paying $20G premuim over the z06 for the exclusivity is reasonable and will sell cars. But that does not apply to the GTS which is the same car gussied up.

 

[FLL-B/W-GTS]

FikseGTS is one Bad Ass driver,no mater what he drives.... A little 5 minute lesson with me and now I run 10.70s/10.80 s all day long with my stock 911 Turbo S....Hopefully SRT does some major improvements(HP/Weight) to the 2014 Viper, so people start buying them again...

Spin it as you wish,their a lot of potential customers that are not happy with the Gen.5 performance as it is...

 

[kratedisease]

If the Gen5 Viper was released with 700+ hp on its launch, my jaw would fall to the floor. I think the non-track consumer like me would just run to the SRT dealer if the Viper had 700 HP at $99G. Now that is a deal or actually a steal. Bragging rights and 1/4 mile numbers still sell cars.

 

[ViperSmith]

FikseGTS is one Bad Ass driver,no mater what he drives.... A little 5 minute lesson with me and now I run 10.70s/10.80 s all day long with my stock 911 Turbo S....Hopefully SRT does some major improvements(HP/Weight) to the 2014 Viper, so people start buying them again...

Spin it as you wish,their a lot of potential customers that are not happy with the Gen.5 performance as it is...

Yeah, SRT is going to make lots of changes in 2014.

More power and less weight! Get real. There will be virtually no changes beyond the ACR.

 

[Solid Red 98]

Less weight and more power doesn't necessarily always mean faster quarter mile times. The viper's biggest disadvantage in a drag race is its traction. While it would be cool to say "my car has 700hp" what's more power if you can't put it to the ground? Just a thought.