My Observations about VCA - This is NOT Good

[Bobpantax]

First, the "he" created the business from nothing. Second, price competition among parts vendors is fierce and that is good for all of us. Third, one of the most important functions of VPA is to store and mainatin the extensive physical Viper heritage that was delivered to VPA in many truckloads by Chrysler.

VPA is literally the repository of a great deal of the Viper's physical history and it is 100% owned by the VCA.

The VPA took on Herb Helbig, the former Chief Engineer of SRT as a consultant when it was formed because it made more sense for the former SRT Chief Engineer to oversee the Viper heritage stored there and to provide data to the club and to the magazines as a consultant to VPA as opposed to being a consultant to the VCA. This has been posted previously. This type of data sharing is also done to some extent by some of the vendors here who post valauble information about Vipers. Mark Jorgensen comes to mind as does Daniel Lesser and Dan Cragin to name a few.

I do business with whoever provides the best prices and the best service on any particular item. But, given a tie, I choose VPA because of its role in maintaining and storing the Viper physical heritage ;and, I consider Herb Helbig to be a very special person in general and, in particular, to the Viper Nation. VPA is fortunate to have him as its consulatnt and the VCA is fortunate to have the benefit of his experience and knowledge.

As for Chris's compensation, I do not think that you or anyone else here, including me, is in any position to judge the value of his services since we do not know the total number of hours that he works or all of what he does. I do know that I have ordered parts after 11 PM by email and to my surprise he has actually responded. Does this mean that I agree with everything that happened in the past? No. Does it mean that I think we need to move on from the past and enjoy our club and our cars again? Yes.

I actually just bought a few parts for mine. I paid slightly more for tires from Luke, but I found every other part for a lower price than the VPA offers (including the VENOM discount, when applicable). I'm not saying I could find EVERY part that they offer for a lower price, but there's nothing I've ever needed that I couldn't find for a better price by looking around (other than the tires, by a few bucks).
I used to buy from the VPA because I thought I was supporting the VCA. Once I figured out all I was doing was lining CM's pockets with a business he was given, funded by my money, by pushing out the competition, and never giving a dime a back to the VCA, I decided that I would never do business with them again.

 

[TowDawg]

It looks like we'll have to agree to disagree on another topic here.
You can call it building a business, but if you GAVE a monkey $50k of SOMEONE ELSE'S money and a lot of initial inventory at scrap value prices, even the monkey could make money.
I'm also not saying that Chris doesn't deserved to be paid for the work he does, but he has not and will not answer to anyone about anything. Considering the VPA is wholly owned by the VCA, how does he get to decide to not answer to the people that own his business (I'm talking about ANY member, and especially and national officer and/or board member).
The VCA was originally pitched as a way to make money for the club and the $50k was a loan. Now they call it an investment. NONE of that $50k has been re-paid, and ZERO dollars have have gone back to the VCA. You can talk about moving Herb's salary to VPA, but if the VCA owns the VPA, then that is nothing but accounting voodoo.

 

[Bobpantax]

I think that you are misunderstanding that the bulk of what was delivered by Chrysler consisted of molds, jigs, and other equipment related to the production of the Viper plus some historically significant memorabilia in addition to odds and ends parts.

I believe that all of this and starting up VPA and establishing it as a MOPAR Dealer was all done within the 50K. I do not think there was any payroll or there was minimal payroll for at least the first year.

I remember early posts stating that it was an all volunteer staff.

Keep in mind that but for the formation of VPA, all the heriatge materials were going to be tossed out by Chrysler after it went into bankruptcy.

Also remember that the last Gen IV Viper rolled off the line on July 1, 2010 ( I was there. It was a bitter sweet event.) and at that time the Viper was dead.

Today, many are not aware of just how dire things were back then. No Viper production. Connor shut down. Employees transferred to other vehicle production. All subsidies of any kind to the VCA, direct or indirect, stopped.

It was a bit of a miracle that the club survived and the Viper heritage equipment was preserved.

A few very hard working people did all of that without receiving a nickel of compensation. I thought that they were a bit obsessed and nuts at the time but looking back on those days, I have to applaud their efforts. I wish more people would appreciate it.

As for answering to someone. Dan is a no BS kind of person. He runs his own very successful business. It is my understanding that he is very much aware of VPAs currrent activities and that Chris does answer to Dan and the Board.

Everyone now knows that it is not in the best interest of any employee or volunteer worker at VPA to be political or vocal regarding club activities and the behavior is no longer permitted.

Sort of the same thing as the revised Chrysler communications policy toward car clubs. It makes no sense for any vendor to be political. It only loses sales.

Keep in mind that VPA is a business with fierce competition from many other parts vendors. It would not be prudent for it to air its internal data to the world. It makes sense for it to conduct itself with the same degree of confidentiality as any other business as long as there is proper communication and oversight with and by the VCA Board.

 

[doctorbob]

Frankly I look forward to 2014.......see my post on the VCA members only site. This antagonism is stupid. Go to the Alley or the VOA. Your posts no longer have validity. The leadership of the VOA are not exactly pure and innocent either.

 

[Bobpantax]

Bob. Which post are you referring to?

 

[ROCKET62]

Other than nostalgia, is there really much value in the molds, jigs, equipment? I would think the club is going to need to figure out a way to trim costs and since storage of these big parts is costly - does it make sense to keep them. Might have seemed to be a good idea at the time, but ....?

 

[Bobpantax]

I think it is still a good idea. The Viper Nation still needs to hedge against the possibilty of the car going away and there are still many Gen I, II, III and IV vehicles out there that some day may benefit from the use of this equipment. A manufacturer only makes replacement parts and body panels for a limited number of years then it discontinues its vendor relationships regarding same. But you are right in that a cost/benefit analysis probably should be done by VPA. Remember, the VCA is not the repository. VPA is and pays the costs associated with the maintainence and storage.

Perhaps some day someone wil want to bring back the former, less tech Viper as a limited production "kit" car. This is not improbable based on what happened with the Ford GT40. Unless I am mistaken, the stored equipment is enough to produce such a vehicle.

Other than nostalgia, is there really much value in the molds, jigs, equipment? I would think the club is going to need to figure out a way to trim costs and since storage of these big parts is costly - does it make sense to keep them. Might have seemed to be a good idea at the time, but ....?

 

[ROCKET62]

Since the VPA is suppossed to be a wholly owned subsidiary of the VCA - the VCA is in effect paying the storage fees. I was under the impression that it would take a herculean effort to really use any of the equipment to produce even one part if even possible.

 

[MoparBoyy]

And as a Fiat shareholder I would consider the approach to be a poor managment strategy.

you own stock in FIAT only. your shares have nothing to do with Chrysler as Chrysler is not a publicly traded company.

 

[GRANGER73]

VPA. Remember, the VCA is not the repository. VPA is and pays the costs associated with the maintainence and storage.

Not so. If the VPA spends the money it effectively is coming out of the VCA's pocket. Also VPA is responsible to the VCA. It is a100% owned subsidiary. CM serves at the pleasure of the VCA ***. The feasibility study you recommend is about 3 years to late. There is really no fault with the VPA as absolute control lies with the VCA.

 

[Dirk Pitt]

Since the VPA is suppossed to be a wholly owned subsidiary of the VCA - the VCA is in effect paying the storage fees. I was under the impression that it would take a herculean effort to really use any of the equipment to produce even one part if even possible.

That's a good question. I am an old muscle car guy and have a number of older cars that are in need of parts for a concourse restoration or have already been restored. The list includes Ford, GM and Mopar. Admittedly, a different era (late '60's and early '70's) than the mid-late '90's and beyond but I sure wish the original tooling was available today for the old cars. The Dynacorn reproduction stuff is getting better but it really isn't anywhere close to original. I've paid a small fortune to obtain key NOS parts to ensure the fit/finish of my "higher end" cars.

With regards to the Viper tooling, whether anyone will ever recoup the storage costs, let alone make any money (for anyone) is a great question. The quantity of Vipers produced is orders of magnitude smaller than Mustangs, 'Cudas, Camaros, etc. so the future demand is probably a lot lower. Furthermore, it is likely that very few of us would ever benefit from the current expense (that's probably a generation or two from now). Only because I value the originality of my classic cars do I like the idea of preserving the ability to reproduce parts. From a pure financial perspective I do believe you're right...not a great business decision.

 

[ferraritoviper]

Here's my personal take...who gives a dump. Why get so frazzled over these clubs/forums...they are just a place to meet and greet, chat, swap ideas and learn things Viper related. Both VCA and VOA serve this purpose well. For the time being VCA has 3 to 1 (or more) people viewing at most times, although VOA is alot more enlightening, as many well informed people are there now exclusively....and SRT will be their soon. For the time being, enjoy the best of both worlds...

 

[Bobpantax]

It is not that simple. The VCA is a tax exempt organization. VPA is a for profit organization. There are complex federal rules regarding the interaction between the two. The normal rules that you may be thinking of regarding a taxable parent which owns a taxable subsidiary do not apply. But, you are correct as far as the VCA's ability to change the employees of VPA; review its budget;and determine the scope of its activities, etc.

Not so. If the VPA spends the money it effectively is coming out of the VCA's pocket. Also VPA is responsible to the VCA. It is a100% owned subsidiary. CM serves at the pleasure of the VCA ***. The feasibility study you recommend is about 3 years to late. There is really no fault with the VPA as absolute control lies with the VCA.

 

[Paul Hawker]

My disappointment is that the VOA fan boys are descending on this website like a pack of wolves to rip and tear apart the VCA membership supporters. They make the same claims over and over, but no answer is ever good enough for them. They have no interest in listening to reason, but just keep making the same allegations, and want to go over them again and again.

Nothing positive will come of this, but they seem to have no interests in making positive change, but seem to just want to destroy something that has served the Viper Community well fro over 20 years.

Now that they have their own website, perhaps it is better for them to post over there instead of doing nothing but cause damage to those that just want to enjoy their Vipers, and have some fun with others that want to do the same.

Would be really happy if they would spew their poison somewhere else. They are up to no good.

 

[johniew398]

What most people don't know is that the founders of the VOA are some of the same people who were officers in the VCA. Supposedly they formed the VOA to correct what they had seen wrong with the VCA. The problem with that is they had a responsibility to members when they were with the VCA they failed to fulfill if they thought there was wrongdoing.

VCA, VOA - doesn't make any difference. It's going to be all the same and run the same way with a select few making the decisions.

Raffles: some of us spent hundreds of dollars on raffles over the years. I'll never contribute towards a car raffle whether it is offered by VCA, VOA or even Mopar/SRT.

So the bashing about VCA or VOA. They are the same.

 

[ROCKET62]

Paul, I think you're ignoring a number of Viper owners that might consider joining both or might join neither organization based on what is happening right now. I was a member for nearly 10 years, before choosing not to renew this year based on what was happening, as the only way I could vote my displeasure was to not rejoin. In my opinion, there are a number of Viper owners that hope the VCA is able to resurrect itself and are looking for reasons to remain a member or rejoin.

There are just as many "fan boys" on this site that have blindly supported and defended the VCA - and this does just as much damage as those VOA fan boys that spew their opinion here. I don't think that the VCA needs to respond to every accusation - but there has not been much in the way of real change (as best as I can tell). What positive changes have been proposed? What bylaw changes are being proposed? When will a vote happen to fill some of the open positions? What is the current financial situation and if in fact as many regions have left as purported, how does the VCA budget for 2014?

My disclaimer - I have not joined the VOA or VCA for 2014.

My disappointment is that the VOA fan boys are descending on this website like a pack of wolves to rip and tear apart the VCA membership supporters. They make the same claims over and over, but no answer is ever good enough for them. They have no interest in listening to reason, but just keep making the same allegations, and want to go over them again and again.

Nothing positive will come of this, but they seem to have no interests in making positive change, but seem to just want to destroy something that has served the Viper Community well fro over 20 years.

Now that they have their own website, perhaps it is better for them to post over there instead of doing nothing but cause damage to those that just want to enjoy their Vipers, and have some fun with others that want to do the same.

Would be really happy if they would spew their poison somewhere else. They are up to no good.

 

[MoparBoyy]

Once and for all, you can complain and accuse all you want. My points are valid and I wanted an answer. You can move the thread if you wish. I don't really care. I wanted one of the officers to respond, not just those who would blindly stick up for them because they're friends. All I've seen are attacks. And on the issue of negativity, don't get me started, this is the way it's always been here. People left just because of this type of crap.

You can complain all you want. It's a free world. But it would be NICE to see a state of the union report so that folks can see how the VCA is doing. But whatever. Flame on, I don't care.

 

[luc]

What most people don't know is that the founders of the VOA are some of the same people who were officers in the VCA. Supposedly they formed the VOA to correct what they had seen wrong with the VCA. The problem with that is they had a responsibility to members when they were with the VCA they failed to fulfill if they thought there was wrongdoing.

VCA, VOA - doesn't make any difference. It's going to be all the same and run the same way with a select few making the decisions.

Raffles: some of us spent hundreds of dollars on raffles over the years. I'll never contribute towards a car raffle whether it is offered by VCA, VOA or even Mopar/SRT.

So the bashing about VCA or VOA. They are the same.

Exactly what I have been saying all along. Same peoples. For me, the VOA is even worst, they don't want to assume responsibility/take ownership for the way the VCA was run when they were part of it. They want us to believe that either they didn't knew or could do nothing to change it, BS.

 

[Bobpantax]

Since you are a proud member of the splinter group, I really do not understand why you are still posting here. You are clearly a shill and the use of the splinter phrase on every post you make shows it.

Be honest. It would not matter what anyone posted. You would still find a reason to attack because you are on a membership drive. Everyone knows that including your fellow splinters.

You are a bright guy. Instead of posting the attack promos here, figure out a way to use your skill set to bypass the protective algorithms in the programming for the Gen IV and Gen V controllers so that each Gen can be easily modded and make yourself a hero to the entire Viper Nation.

 

[Bobpantax]

Agreed. Their strategy is very Obamalike.

For me, the VOA is even worst, they don't want to assume responsibility/take ownership for the way the VCA was run when they were part of it. They want us to believe that either they didn't knew or could do nothing to change it, BS.

 

[ferraritoviper]

" ...including your fellow splinters."

Wow Bob, that is quite a melodramatic statement. Anyway, you and OP need to give this foolishness up...in my humble opinion, of course

 

[herbbone]

I'm getting sick of this BS. The majority of us just want to get together because we all share a common bond. Our region voted to go with the VOA. Time will tell if either will suceed. In the end revolution is sometimes good. Only time will repair the rift. I joined this club and the other because we all have a common and rare asset, we are Viper owners. Only time will sort this scism out. Eventually the clubs will sort things out. I have made more than a few friends nationwide just by being a Viper owner and through this club. I really hope cool heads will prevail in the future. United we are one divided we are scattered.

 

[herbbone]

This was also posted in the VOA forums.

 

[MtnBiker]

What most people don't know is that the founders of the VOA are some of the same people who were officers in the VCA. Supposedly they formed the VOA to correct what they had seen wrong with the VCA. The problem with that is they had a responsibility to members when they were with the VCA they failed to fulfill if they thought there was wrongdoing.

VCA, VOA - doesn't make any difference. It's going to be all the same and run the same way with a select few making the decisions.

Raffles: some of us spent hundreds of dollars on raffles over the years. I'll never contribute towards a car raffle whether it is offered by VCA, VOA or even Mopar/SRT.

So the bashing about VCA or VOA. They are the same.

One big difference: I can receive good technical information from JonB on the VOA. Not so much here anymore.

 

[plumcrazy]

both sides would look better if they just walked away and never looked back. nobody is changing anyones mind on this stuff.

 

[Silver04]

This drama brings back memories of when the PTO and PTA split apart at my kid's school...

 

[Bobpantax]

Now this is one of the more absurd posts I have read in a long time. Herb Helbig, the former Chief Engineer of SRT, is a consultant to VPA and has an ongoing thread for questions on this site. This site also has experts like Dan Lesser, Dan Cragin and Mark Jorgensen who post regularly as do other capable "tuners" and some very capable Viper owners. Jon is a great guy and a valuable source for parts and valuation data when you have an insurance issue but he certainly does not have the same type of experience and knowledge as the four poeple I just mentioned by name.

One big difference: I can receive good technical information from JonB on the VOA. Not so much here anymore.

 

[Oilman1934]

Bob,you would be the best press secretary,Jay Carney got nothing on you!

 

[TrackAire]

Now this is one of the more absurd posts I have read in a long time. Herb Helbig, the former Chief Engineer of SRT, is a consultant to VPA and has an ongoing thread for questions on this site. This site also has experts like Dan Lesser, Dan Cragin and Mark Jorgensen who post regularly as do other capable "tuners" and some very capable Viper owners. Jon is a great guy and a valuable source for parts and valuation data when you have an insurance issue but he certainly does not have the same type of experience and knowledge as the four poeple I just mentioned by name.

So you're saying that Jon B is not the brightest bulb in the box......but I bet he is the most ***!!

You'll have to look over at the VOA site to get that joke. Just thought a little TrackAire humor was in order to lighten up the mood.


Cheers,
George

 

[Bobpantax]

Jon is very bright. And very witty. But a Herb Helbig or a tuner he is not. You can rack that up to the tremendous amount of time he has spent on parts.

So you're saying that Jon B is not the brightest bulb in the box......but I bet he is the most ***!!

You'll have to look over at the VOA site to get that joke. Just thought a little TrackAire humor was in order to lighten up the mood.


Cheers,
George