N/A Cam setup??
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Greg Good Cylinder Heads
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Ah...
Well, good thing you're not claiming to have much more than stock even with a Paxton. Your posts ARE being watched you know....... in case you try to pull any tricks with us...
Well, good thing you're not claiming to have much more than stock even with a Paxton. Your posts ARE being watched you know....... in case you try to pull any tricks with us...
RapidRonnie
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Hi Greg,
I am more than familiar with the various lifter designs and how they operate and I am not disputing the necessity of a solid in a BIG power/HIGH r.p.m. application. It used to be far more of an issue before hydraulic rollers came out because H.R.s can follow some fairly high velocity ramps without too much of an effort providing they don't breach any critical r.p.m. limits; compared to a basic non-roller hydraulic cam of years past.
The only question I was trying to ask originally was how big of a hydraulic were you using that you felt should have been a solid design? I was confused by your answer of taming a hydraulic with a solid lifter. If it was that big, perhaps a solid lifter grind cam with a solid lifter would have been the better choice. What kind of grinds do you have where the hydraulic roller can't accurately follow the ramps, as in your post above?
Or, how high are you trying to buzz the engine?Anyway, I believe it is far more an issue of deciding on the correct cam grind rather than which lifter should be used. Once certain r.p.m. limits are reached, lifter choice becomes academic.
Personally, I wouldn't bother changing a street (roller) hydraulic to a solid roller in an attempt to provide "better" street manners; actually just the opposite. But there are many ways to accomplish a goal. If the engine is primarily for the street then a hydraulic roller would be retained. But again, that would be my approach.
In a very serious race application with high r.p.m. to go with it, a more aggressive solid roller grind would be used, without a doubt. But that has been the case for a number of years on any high-performance push rod engines, Viper or not.
I'm involved with a 2300 HP TT (Ford) build in a drag radial car. Now THAT uses a solid lifter roller...a big one..
Thanks for your time.
Ronnie
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Greg Good Cylinder Heads
Enthusiast
I was not talking about using a solid lifter on a hydraulic roller cam (although it can be done with certain lobes). I was talking about a solid lifter camshaft.
The 232 @.050" hydraulic roller intake lobe I mentioned earlier in the thread is about as much duration as I can run in a stock PCM'd car without a low vacuum signal causing a rich condition. If I switch to a solid lifter cam, I can go up in duration 6-8 degrees @ .050". Plus the solid cam will have about .050" more valve lift. There is a sizable increase in port flow going from .600" to .650-" lift.
The last few solid cams I've had ground are from a new *family* of lobes that can be run with either a hydraulic roller tappet set at zero lash (pre-load), or a solid roller tappet at up to .016" lash. With the solid lifter and .016" lash, the cam will idle smoother and pull more vacuum than with a hydraulic lifter. And yes, it will have *better street manners*.
I twisted 1Tony1's arm into putting a small solid cam in his car a few years ago. He was concerned about it idling too rough ( A lot of people think that all solid lifter cams are rough). I sold him a 232 @ .050" solid that pulled 2 more inches of vacuum than his old 708 cam, and he complained that it idled too smooth. If it had been a 232 @.050" hydraulic cam it would have been lopey as hell.
That's the way it works. It's all about the overlap. The solid cam with it's shorter seat/advertised duration has less overlap and acts like a cam with less overlap.
Like I already said, a solid setup is not for everyone. But for the guy that doesn't mind checking lash once a quarter it has some good benefits over a hydraulic.
The 232 @.050" hydraulic roller intake lobe I mentioned earlier in the thread is about as much duration as I can run in a stock PCM'd car without a low vacuum signal causing a rich condition. If I switch to a solid lifter cam, I can go up in duration 6-8 degrees @ .050". Plus the solid cam will have about .050" more valve lift. There is a sizable increase in port flow going from .600" to .650-" lift.
The last few solid cams I've had ground are from a new *family* of lobes that can be run with either a hydraulic roller tappet set at zero lash (pre-load), or a solid roller tappet at up to .016" lash. With the solid lifter and .016" lash, the cam will idle smoother and pull more vacuum than with a hydraulic lifter. And yes, it will have *better street manners*.
I twisted 1Tony1's arm into putting a small solid cam in his car a few years ago. He was concerned about it idling too rough ( A lot of people think that all solid lifter cams are rough). I sold him a 232 @ .050" solid that pulled 2 more inches of vacuum than his old 708 cam, and he complained that it idled too smooth. If it had been a 232 @.050" hydraulic cam it would have been lopey as hell.
That's the way it works. It's all about the overlap. The solid cam with it's shorter seat/advertised duration has less overlap and acts like a cam with less overlap.
Like I already said, a solid setup is not for everyone. But for the guy that doesn't mind checking lash once a quarter it has some good benefits over a hydraulic.
Greg Good Cylinder Heads
Enthusiast
Here's a quick comparison of the 3634 hydraulic roller lobe I like a lot and a solid lobe that is 2 degrees smaller @.050". The solid is 30 degrees smaller on the seat, only 2 degrees behind and .050", 1 degree bigger at .200", and has a lot more lift (area under the curve). Guess which one will have more power everywhere AND idle smoother?
Lobe #3634 282 seat - [email protected]" - [email protected]" - .600" lift
Solid lobe 258 seat - [email protected]" - [email protected]" - .689" lift
This solid lobe is from a pretty aggressive family of lobes, and I wouldn't sell it to a Viper owner, although with a 6200 rpm redline it would probably last forever.
Lobe #3634 282 seat - [email protected]" - [email protected]" - .600" lift
Solid lobe 258 seat - [email protected]" - [email protected]" - .689" lift
This solid lobe is from a pretty aggressive family of lobes, and I wouldn't sell it to a Viper owner, although with a 6200 rpm redline it would probably last forever.
Greg ,not for anything your on a forum obviously trying to sell a product which is fine .Didnt the thought cross your mind that some of us actual racers out there (the kind that that race Vipers on a track ,not on a DYNO )might want to try a solid cam (regardless of the cost and aggreviation associated with switching over adjusting valves ect )IF you could provide actual proof that the cars you are running these things in are faster than hyd counterparts.Instead you keep alluding the entire issue (wanting potential customers to switch over on your word )and right away it throws up a red flag (I race my Viper this guy wants me to spend money on this what if it does not work or is not worth it ect iam now left with having to deal with a solid cam of all things ).
I don't think Greg is pushing most people to to solid. When I was building me engine, Greg was heavily involved and never even mentioned it to me. I think Greg talks to people about it depending on their application not as a rule.
I know a guy who recently went this route with Greg but the guy wanted a setup like that and actually tunes and world on his own car. Knows how to adjust valves etc....
Its an option I believe but not the norm.
I know a guy who recently went this route with Greg but the guy wanted a setup like that and actually tunes and world on his own car. Knows how to adjust valves etc....
Its an option I believe but not the norm.
Plum dont get me wrong when i was racing IF it made the car faster and did not kill streetability i would have gone for this in a minute.Back in 2000 i wanted more power so i bought a set of the new Mopar-Street Strip Heads and was interested in a SOLID CAM or a bigger HYD .I explored ,consulted with a ton of people.Evan got myself and Nick at Modern in touch with the motor builders at Caldwell Development .We spoke with Dan Craigen and Dave Crower and all were in total agreement =a solid will make more peak dyno power BUT for your intended usage (STREET- DRAG STRIP )it does not mean the car will go faster. With the speed the car was running they all felt i should leave the thing alone.I would not listen so i shipped the heads off to CROWER MOTORSPORT where Daves son Dan did a complete flow port on them inturn Dave ground me a LARGE custom cam to match the heads .Net result car was no faster ,was a pig to street drive BUT i did make like 10-15 more at the tire on the dyno.
GTS-R 001
Enthusiast
So you want a new cam or you don't?
GG is just telling you his experiences, I think you have to decide what you want and go from there. IF you are looking for a guarantee that one or the other will make you faster, that is up to you.
I think he just wants to argue. I also thinks he picked the wrong person to argue with on this particular topic. GG is one of the most respected authorities in this area. I'd take GG's word on this topic any day.
He does not have the experiance to know IF THE PRODUCT HE IS SELLING IS GOING MAKE THE CAR FASTER SO WHAT GOOD IS THE PRODUCT .This is not a guessing game as you are talking about thousands of dollars.
Then you should step up and spend thousands of dollars on something that might not work .When will you be sending him your money.
When I am ready to do heads/cam on my car I will be calling GG. I know many people who have used his advice/product with stellar results at the track. My tuner (who know 1,000 more about Vipers than you) also highly recommends GG.
GTS-R 001
Enthusiast
Red, I think you are right, obviously both of these guys have scads of experience about what they are talking about but it comes down to opinions about what is best for the individual and GG, if I read correctly, pretty much dials in the recommendation based on teh outcome the buyer is willing to live with. 1BADGTS is wanting a guarantee that a certain piece will make him faster, it is not that simple, hell, most of that mag that Evan smith Edits and drives for Muscle Msutangs and Fast Fords is full of dyno tests of different performance set ups, why od they do that if they could just have Evan make a run?
Why you ask again?
It is because the dyno is easier to control all the variables with. any combo of parts could make one driver faster than another based on their style of driving, their launch technique etc.
We are now dealing in symantics, 1BADGTS, it is not up to greg to put $1000,s on the line. That is not his part in the equation, he is the coach, that gives you the tools, even if you should be able to run faster with Nike's instead of NB shoes but you actually run faster with the NB's doesn't mean that the Nikes don't work it just means that you can't drive! LOL
That is complete utter nonsense .The man is SELLING a high perf package .Any TUNER that does so be it (LPE ,HEFFNER) has track data as to what one can expeect to gain in quarter mile perf was their respective upgrades.Go on or call LPE a and ask them SPECIFICALLY what THEIR GEN 2 stroker package has run in the quarter =10.3 AT 135.Absolutely no data has been provided as such.NUMERIOUS times i have asked the question WHY if i can run 132 with a HYD CAM would i want to screw around with the solid .Numerious times the question has been ignored .Its not the job of the CLIENT to find out what a package is supposed to turn at the strip (thats costing him THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS) its the job of the tuner to supple the client with that data IF ASKED BEFORE THE CLIENT SPENDS THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR .In this case either the tuner has run the package down the strip (and its trap speed is slower than 132 )or he has no clue as to what it runs.That being the case RENT A TRACK ,GET A DRIVER and go public with it AFTER YOU DO YOUR RESEARCH.
Greg Good Cylinder Heads
Enthusiast
I don't have the experience.......ok.
I don't even know how many cams for different engines I've bought over the years and got feedback on. No kidding, over a thousand of them. I opened my account with Comp Cams in 1984. I've been doing this a very long time.
I'm sorry your build didn't turn out like you wanted, but that should not be an indictment against all solid cams.
I did not get in this thread to sell anyone anything. On the contrary. I posted the part numbers for the intake and exhaust lobes of a hydraulic roller cam that has had earned overwhelmingly positive feedback through the years on Vipers. It has made 600 on a Gen 2 and 620's on a Gen 3. I posted those lobe numbers so anyone could call Comp and order it directly.
That, and I corrected you on some misinformation you posted about the Viper oiling system.
Just trying to be helpful. Besides thumping your chest, what useful info have you provided in this thread?
Have a great day. Sounds like you could use one.
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ps ONCE AGAIN YOU GUYS DO NOT UNDERSTAND the difference between a dyno number and a trap speed .BECAUSE A DYNO SPITS OUT A rwhp NUMBER ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT mean that number is going to equate to a trap speed .You are confusing DRIVER ABILITY AND TRACTION (ET ) WITH TRAP SPEED .Different world.
Greg iam not trying to bust *alls ,just say i dont know what it will run as i have not tested it at the track yet.It has the potential to be faster because of the solid cam .
Are you looking to purchase Viper parts for your Viper?
If not, why don't you give it a rest. No one here is impressed with your bench racing.
GTS-R 001
Enthusiast
Greg Good Cylinder Heads
Enthusiast
I'm not going to argue with you anymore. I've sold MANY of the 3634/3635 cams and they ALWAYS satisfy. It put the info out there for FREE for everyone to use.
Leave me alone!
Son IF your in charge of MARKETING for GREG ,GOD BLESS .I was racing Vipers at a track BEFORE you dreamed of owning one (-do your researh BEFORE YOU RUN THE MOUTH )My car in question here (the one that trapped 132 and WON the 4 Mopar ATL TITLES in the modifyed NA division )was bought from me by the PRES of THE VIPER CLUB OF AMERICA .sO THIS IS NOT ABOUT benchracingAre you looking to purchase Viper parts for your Viper?
If not, why don't you give it a rest. No one here is impressed with your bench racing.
.
Ireally dont care if you are the facts speak for themselves .You have a stock Viper your not even remotely qualifyed to enter the discussion.Still not impressed.
And believe me, I am not your Son.
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