N2O Question for Mr. Welch and Others

[GO 4LO]

I was looking at the BTR website and saw the new 300+ hp 2-stage nitrous system that's available now. I have a couple questions:
1. Is this a progressive shot, like one that starts at, say, 100 or something and then ramps up smoothly to 300, or is it more like starting at 150 but then switches to 300 instantaneously at, say, 4500 rpm or something?
2. It states on the site that the cylinder pressures are kept lower than with a blower. I was curious, though, about whether this kit would be too stressful on the engine if I later wanted to install a blower _in addition to_ the nitrous. Can this kit be used in conjunction with a blower, provided the fuel issues can be worked out? Or would a shot this large be too much when combined with the stress of a blower?
Thanks in advance.
Chris

 

[Tom Welch]

Chris,

Thanks for the questions. They don't have difinative answers. I can only state how I have NOS set up and what I have SUCESSFULLY used on blown applications with nitrous in the past.

My new 2 stage system is adjustable in horsepower in both the first and second stage. The systems design is for the more serious racer who wants a good shot of Adjustable hp for launching his Viper without traction loss, then at his discretion, he can bring in the Adjustable second stage at will with a pushbutton switch. In initial tests on the dyno my own Viper gained 275 Rear Wheel Horsepower by bringing in the second stage at 3500 rpm and shutting down all nitrous at 5000 rpm. Im on the conservative side. Many of my customers are more aggressive than myself. Last friday at Orlando Speedworld on the first stage only, my Viper netted a 10.20 at 140+mph and will be using both stages on our next track test session.

As for mixing a blower and nitrous, it is done every day. DETONATION will be your guide to horsepower adjustment. Run as much boost or as much nitrous or a combination of both as you can without detonation for maximum power. In my past experiences with forced air induction, the main reason for nitrous injection was two fold; cool the incoming air charge and eliminate some of the "lag" associated with turbochargers. Our Nitrous Solutions do NOT use any of the engines available fuel resources, therefore should you elect to add forced air induction at a later date, you will have plenty of fuel supplementation available.

Detonation is the death of blown/sc/nos or any high compression engine. Detonation is caused by the lack of sufficient fuel to the engine and is often complicated further by excessive ignition timing and cylinder head chamber design. Our cylinder heads eliminate the latter possibility, and our fuel supplementation systems eliminate lean conditions as we have spent thousands of dollars testing our combinations. We have low 10 second 2001 "cream puff" Vipers that still use the stock pistons......for that matter the whole engine!

In short, If you have a sufficient air/fuel ratio, your stock to mildly modified Viper engine can withstand up to double its power and torque output with no ill effects. My car is PROOF of that fact. Your Viper engine is a textbook design for nitrous and or forced air induction. With an aluminum block and heads, flat-top forged pistons, cross-bolted crankshaft supports and a long runner intake, it will take the power. As you increase engine efficiency with products like higher static compression, high lift-long duration camshafts, stroker kits and the such, you will reach a horsepower plataeu and begin to see diminishing returns for your dollars spent vs. horsepower gained

Good luck with your search. For answers to your specific needs please don't hesitate to contact me at any time.

Tom
Http://btrviper.com

 

[GO 4LO]

Thanks for the response. One other question for you: have you ever installed nitrous on a stroker motor? I'm trying to figure out the best way to build a 900+ rwhp car in the next couple years without completely breaking the bank. Would a custom stroker motor be able to handle the added nitrous stress as well as the 488 stocker?
Well, actually, two questions, I guess

- here's another: in another thread, someone had mentioned a BTR Stage III head package. I was just wondering if you actually have a Stage 3 setup in development. If you can't comment on it, I understand, though. Thanks for your help.
Chris

 

[treynor]

Chris,
I believe Albert C. is routinely making mid-800 RWHP on his car, which still has stock displacement. He and Tom have taken similar routes -- boltons, heads, cam, forged pistons, and lots of Nawwwwwssssss

I don't think you want to go the stroker motor route, as that adds a minimum $17K to your total pricetag, and as Tom says still won't get you near your horsepower goal.

Speaking from experience here, be careful of persuing a single goal (i.e., 900 RWHP) without consindering what you'll use the car for. My previous major project car was a '97 Supra which I built up to the point where it made 619 RWHP -- and I couldn't get traction until 3rd gear. Tom and Albert are both ******** dragracers, and if you roll around on warm ET streets all the time, that power level makes sense. If you're going to do primarily street driving, you will have major traction issues by the 600 RWHP level, especially if you have power which hits suddenly (as does NOS).

 

[Tom Welch]

Chris,

Ben makes an excellent point in that your intended usage for your viper should play a major consideration to your modifications.

Thats the main reason why I chose the "total horsepower" philosophy for my own viper. Ive had lots of 600 ci stoker v-8s pounding the pavement with over 1000 hp, but drivability *****, as will the drivability of a 900 hp Viper. To get 900 rear wheel horsepower from a stock configured viper powerplant is a monumental task. Change the cam, stroke it, supercharge it, nos it and you will have a car that WILL require very regular maintenance. I can give you the phone number of the owner of such a Viper. Keep in mind that as your increase the efficiency of the engine you will see diminishing returns from additional modifications, especially forced air induction and nitrous oxide injection. These type motors perform at their best with low compression.

I have not seen Alberts car, but i believe that he has a little more motor work than myself as I have elected to stick with the stock cam for now. My car produced about 800 RWHP on a dyno pull last week. It has my Stage 3 head configuration(new, still under developement) and has shown very promising results so far considering the stock cam is in the engine.

As for stroker motors, I have owned several, NONE though for my viper. It would seem though that the viper engine would make a good candidate for stroking as its design is low rpm, high torque through the power band. The cost associated with doing this along with the "guinea pig factor" have kept me away from this modification.

Tom
Http://btrviper.com

 

[MES]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
What I was hoping to accomplish initially will be a streetable 550+ rwhp on motor. Then have the nitrous setup for use at the strip
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds just like what BTR offers. I would like to know what a stage II head and stage I crowler cam will do. I would guess in the low 500's and no I'm not willing to pay $15-$20K for a special tuner cam/head package to make another 20-40 HP (550+rwhp). Tom seems to have the most reasonable price for the work he does. I think his stage II heads are $4,500 not sure about installation $$ but I'm sure it's reasonable. So if you take say 520 rwhp + 150 rwhp on nitrous you get 670 rwhp that's a lot of power for a street car and it's relatively inexpensive.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Stage II of the buildup will follow a couple years later and will either include an intercooled blower
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm also waiting on an affordable (read: under $7K) blower kit with a intercooler. Until one comes out I'm going to stick with the nitrous.

BTW a head/cam is on my future mod wish list

 

[treynor]

Chris,
You sound like you're following exactly my path

You can make a reliable 540+ RWHP on motor without going the stroker route -- APEX offers the best-priced package I'm aware of for that power level right now (~$22K), and it sounds like Tom's working on one as well. A number of other tuners already have packages like that available, although the prices I've seen listed tend to be $5-10K higher.

A word of warning about supercharging -- high-compression heads and forced induction don't mix well for obvious reasons, so you'll have to throw out most of the work you've done making your car a fast N/A vehicle if you go the F/I route.

 

[Tom Welch]

Fellas,

Here is my New Years Sale pricing on Stage 2 cylinder heads from BTR....because MES asked,

Stage 2 Big Valve cylinder heads INCLUDING T&D 1.7 ratio Roller Rockers $ 4995.00(exchange)

Head swap kit $ 595.00 Includes everything needed for a head swap(gen2). All gaskets, chrome moly one piece pushrods in custom length, and New head bolts.

Head swap labor at my facility(for those intrested) will take one and a half days at a cost of $ 1000.00 and will include an oil change and antifreeze.

This pricing will run until Jan 15th 2002.

Thanks,

Tom
Http://btrviper.com

 

[TOOOFST]

Originally posted by GO 4LO:

or perhaps just a Hemi swap. I'm still deciding

Chris

Hey,Whats the budget and how fast you want to go,thats where the conversation starts.You might wind up with a twin turbo neon running 9's.Good luck

 

[MES]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Here is my New Years Sale pricing on Stage 2 cylinder heads from BTR....because MES asked,
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds tempting, but why the T&D rockers and not Arrow? Do you have this set of heads in stock with T&D's? The two day turn around sounds like it may make the deal. I'll have to think about it over the Holiday.

 

[GO 4LO]

Thanks for the info, guys. What I was hoping to accomplish initially will be a streetable 550+ rwhp on motor. Then have the nitrous setup for use at the strip. Stage II of the buildup will follow a couple years later and will either include an intercooled blower on top of that, or perhaps just a Hemi swap. I'm still deciding

- thanks for your thoughts guys. I really appreciate the knowledgeable comments from you more experienced guys

.
Chris

 

[Tom Welch]

MES,

Arrow is working out a problem with the hardness of the adjusters in their rockers which they hope to have resolved in the next few weeks, but until then they are not shipping rockers out. When Arrows are available again I will have pricing for both rocker combinations. I use Arrows on my car and feel confident that Arrow will correct this issue quickly as they represent a fine product.

Additionally, when we set up cylinder heads for the T&D rockers we use a longer valve and other features that enable a good working combination of head and valvetrain. This is normally a more expensive combination.

I do not have a set of heads in stock and actually have a 2 week backlog. I can offer exchange if needed which will enable you to keep your car until your new parts are ready. Again, expect about 1 to 2 days for installation.

Tom
Http://btrviper.com

 

[TOOOFST]

Need Heads,blocks ect.
Howie Franks got a boat load for sale,in the box!His co.is ENCOTECH in glenview,il.

 

[GO 4LO]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TOOOFST:

Originally posted by GO 4LO:

or perhaps just a Hemi swap. I'm still deciding

Chris

Hey,Whats the budget and how fast you want to go,thats where the conversation starts.You might wind up with a twin turbo neon running 9's.Good luck

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Budget will be somewhere in the 30-40k range for mods. I want to keep a manual transmission. I'd like to keep the independent rear, as well. If I had to go with a D60 IRS, though, I could work with that, just rather not go solid axle. I'd like to break into the 9's, if possible.
Chris